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What's so bad about "woo-woo" beliefs?

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Why call it "magic", then? It seems like the situation's set up for misunderstanding, so using the term has a considerable cost... but what does using the term get you in return?

For the same reason I use the word "god" to describe the universe/reality. It conveys a sense of awe and wonder. It forces us to recognize the extraordinary nature of the ordinary, to take nothing for granted, to see the mysteries hiding in plain sight, to see with the eyes of a child, to enchant the world with a majesty that is missing in many lives nowadays.

Also, because I like to. Think of it as a choice in wardrobe: some people like blue jeans and some people like leather pants. The imagery of spellcraft and fantasy speaks to me, and it makes my working more effective. Blue jeans are boring; leather pants make it more enchanting, fun, and engaging. Someone else might do just fine with blue jeans, but I don't like them. No disrespect to blue jeans intended, but I like my leather. It's kinky. :D
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
For the same reason I use the word "god" to describe the universe/reality. It conveys a sense of awe and wonder. It forces us to recognize the extraordinary nature of the ordinary, to take nothing for granted, to see the mysteries hiding in plain sight, to see with the eyes of a child, to enchant the world with a majesty that is missing in many lives nowadays.

Heh... I think we've talked about this before. I think using "God" in that way causes unnecessary confusion, too.

Also, because I like to. Think of it as a choice in wardrobe: some people like blue jeans and some people like leather pants. The imagery of spellcraft and fantasy speaks to me, and it makes my working more effective. Blue jeans are boring; leather pants make it more enchanting, fun, and engaging. Someone else might do just fine with blue jeans, but I don't like them. No disrespect to blue jeans intended, but I like my leather. It's kinky. :D
But by the same token, when you deliberately put on the trappings of supernatural conjuring, you shouldn't be surprised when people assume that this is what you're actually trying to do.
 

HerDotness

Lady Babbleon
Heh... I think we've talked about this before. I think using "God" in that way causes unnecessary confusion, too.


But by the same token, when you deliberately put on the trappings of supernatural conjuring, you shouldn't be surprised when people assume that this is what you're actually trying to do.

Which says more about their willingness to assume ignorantly and thus mistakenly than it does about Quintessence's beliefs and their role in her life.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Which says more about their willingness to assume ignorantly and thus mistakenly than it does about Quintessence's beliefs and their role in her life.

No, it doesn't. Look at what she said: "the imagery of spellcraft and fantasy". If the whole point of the trappings and imagery you use is to evoke a connection to these things, then it makes no sense at all to complain when people make the association.
 

mycorrhiza

Well-Known Member
Heh... I think we've talked about this before. I think using "God" in that way causes unnecessary confusion, too.

I'd say that it conveys a good picture of how the Universe is viewed by many people, including me.

The same way that "magick" can represent a psychological ritual to change oneself. While there's a scientific explanation that one might agree with, giving it the term magick gives it a sense of "power", in that it glories the human mind. It doesn't necessarily make a connection to the supernatural. I don't use the term, but I do see the appeal.
 

HerDotness

Lady Babbleon
No, it doesn't. Look at what she said: "the imagery of spellcraft and fantasy". If the whole point of the trappings and imagery you use is to evoke a connection to these things, then it makes no sense at all to complain when people make the association.

Think about it. She said "the imagery of spellcraft and fantasy."

You seem to insist that anyone into occult practices thinks that fairy godmothers are real, that unicorns exist and that King Arthur lives still in Avalon.

Because such people find that fantasy and imagery give them a desirable mindset and attitude toward life, those regarding them as nutjobs are both correct and justified in doing so. Of course!...goes without saying that this misconception is really what those into occultism are doing if they weren't so deluded as to think otherwise.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I'd say that it conveys a good picture of how the Universe is viewed by many people, including me.
And I think it makes no sense. IMO, the term "God" implies things like intelligence, personality and agency. It means a heck of a lot more than "subject of awe".

The same way that "magick" can represent a psychological ritual to change oneself. While there's a scientific explanation that one might agree with, giving it the term magick gives it a sense of "power", in that it glories the human mind. It doesn't necessarily make a connection to the supernatural. I don't use the term, but I do see the appeal.
If you're taking a term that is entirely wrapped up in the supernatural and redefine it to exclude the supernatural, I don't think you should be surprised when people who weren't privy to your change haven't come along for the ride.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Think about it. She said "the imagery of spellcraft and fantasy."

You seem to insist that anyone into occult practices thinks that fairy godmothers are real, that unicorns exist and that King Arthur lives still in Avalon.
Straw man, anyone?

No, I'm just saying that when you go to a great deal of trouble to erect a facade, you shouldn't be surprised when people assume there's an actual building behind it to match.

This has nothing to do with unicorns, but it does have something to do with figuring that a person really means what they say, and that the things that they invest time and effort in actually matter to them.

If I walk around town wearing camouflage and safety orange, people will assume I'm a hunter even if I'm not. If I tell people that I engage in magic, people will think that I'm trying to do something with the supernatural even if I only mean something like "the power of positive thinking".

Because such people find that fantasy and imagery give them a desirable mindset and attitude toward life, those regarding them as nutjobs are both correct and justified in doing so. Of course!...goes without saying that this misconception is really what those into occultism are doing if they weren't so deluded as to think otherwise.
So it's just cosplay, then? LARPing? A game?
 

mycorrhiza

Well-Known Member
And I think it makes no sense. IMO, the term "God" implies things like intelligence, personality and agency. It means a heck of a lot more than "subject of awe".

To me, a God is what is revered and worshipped and what is worthy of awe and wonder. I can see why things would get confusing, though. God is used in the same way in other religious contexts too, though, when some religious persons speak of atheists making humanity into God. So it doesn't always mean supernatural being, it can also mean whatever takes the place of this being.

If you're taking a term that is entirely wrapped up in the supernatural and redefine it to exclude the supernatural, I don't think you should be surprised when people who weren't privy to your change haven't come along for the ride.

It's just symbolism and although magic(k) is connected to the supernatural, most people who practice magic(k) don't see it as the classic supernatural magic spells that shoot lightning bolts or turn people into frogs.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
It's just symbolism and although magic(k) is connected to the supernatural, most people who practice magic(k) don't see it as the classic supernatural magic spells that shoot lightning bolts or turn people into frogs.
I haven't met anyone who claims to be able to turn someone into a frog either, but the language I've heard practitioners of magic(k) use does seem to me that they're talking about something more than the placebo effect and controlling one's willpower. I've heard them describe things like "healing energy" and influencing external events through their rituals. It certainly seems to me to be something like an amped-up version of "the power of prayer", and in my experience, people do generally seem to sincerely believe it's effective.

I think that for many people, it's not just symbolic. Not cartoon magic, but definitely going beyond what people normally think of as natural.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
I get your point, 9-10ths, about that by using this kind of imagery we sort of create some of our own problems. I get that. However, I also don't think it is too much to ask that people respect diversity of belief and ideally attempt to understand our beliefs when we point out that their assumptions are not quite on target. Instead what happens is that some insist "magic is this" or "god is this" even though that is not how I'm seeing it. Then we talk in circles around each other, which is just not useful.

To understand religious diversity, we have to learn to see from the other person's point of view. Sometimes it is like learning a new language, since you need to learn a different way of thinking than you may be used to. Sometimes this is easier to do than other times. I'm definitely not perfect about it myself, so I try to not get upset when people misunderstand my beliefs. It happens.
 

cablescavenger

Well-Known Member
Yes, I know all the stuff about New Agers and occultists believing in false gods and demons. So, please, no rants about "Yes, that's all you guys believe in, and someday you'll find out how sorry you're going to be for doing that."

What I'm asking is why so many people are dismissive of New Agers, witches, Pagans and the various other occult faiths-practices?

I suspect it's just ignorance, fear and a sizable amount of "Pastor says you're all demon worshippers going to hell."

But even in churches that claim they're openminded and tolerant of diversity of belief, I've encountered prejudice against me for being into "woo-woo" stuff...first New Age and now Thelema, the latter of which I typically don't explain at all but merely refer to it as an occult discipline.

I'd hoped after Shirley Maclaine's openness about her involvement in New Age spirituality got so much publicity...and so many bad jokes from the late show hosts and comedians...that maybe the climate would open up a bit more. But except for generally quite liberal areas of the U.S. that have always been openminded about peculiar beliefs, the rest of the country doesn't seem to have progressed much at all in the 30-some years I've been into the occult.

Why not, do you think?

I've known a few. Live and let live. It doesn't bother me.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I get your point, 9-10ths, about that by using this kind of imagery we sort of create some of our own problems. I get that. However, I also don't think it is too much to ask that people respect diversity of belief and ideally attempt to understand our beliefs when we point out that their assumptions are not quite on target. Instead what happens is that some insist "magic is this" or "god is this" even though that is not how I'm seeing it. Then we talk in circles around each other, which is just not useful.
OTOH, an arrangement where we re-define pre-existing terms to mean whatever we want them to mean and not their established definitions doesn't exactly help to avoid talking in circles either.

I don't think it's "disrespecting diversity of belief" to take this position, either. It's not a matter of the beliefs themselves; it's a matter of the terms we use to describe them. Any sort of communication is an interaction between the originator and the receiver, so disregarding the understanding of the receiver doesn't do any good to actually communicate meaning.
 

HerDotness

Lady Babbleon
OTOH, an arrangement where we re-define pre-existing terms to mean whatever we want them to mean and not their established definitions doesn't exactly help to avoid talking in circles either.

I don't think it's "disrespecting diversity of belief" to take this position, either. It's not a matter of the beliefs themselves; it's a matter of the terms we use to describe them. Any sort of communication is an interaction between the originator and the receiver, so disregarding the understanding of the receiver doesn't do any good to actually communicate meaning.

What this really amounts to is your disagreeing that occultism can have merit for anyone and that Quintessence has the right to define "god" in whatever manner that works for her.

Communication is benefited more by asking and attempting to understand another's perspective than by insisting that the common understanding must be what something means or how it is valued.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Yes, I know all the stuff about New Agers and occultists believing in false gods and demons. So, please, no rants about "Yes, that's all you guys believe in, and someday you'll find out how sorry you're going to be for doing that."

What I'm asking is why so many people are dismissive of New Agers, witches, Pagans and the various other occult faiths-practices?

I suspect it's just ignorance, fear and a sizable amount of "Pastor says you're all demon worshippers going to hell."

But even in churches that claim they're openminded and tolerant of diversity of belief, I've encountered prejudice against me for being into "woo-woo" stuff...first New Age and now Thelema, the latter of which I typically don't explain at all but merely refer to it as an occult discipline.

I'd hoped after Shirley Maclaine's openness about her involvement in New Age spirituality got so much publicity...and so many bad jokes from the late show hosts and comedians...that maybe the climate would open up a bit more. But except for generally quite liberal areas of the U.S. that have always been openminded about peculiar beliefs, the rest of the country doesn't seem to have progressed much at all in the 30-some years I've been into the occult.

Why not, do you think?

As for your question 'Why not, do you think?' (regarding public acceptance of new age/different spiritual beliefs in the last 30+ years).

I'm going to slightly disagree with the premise of your question. I think since the 1970's things like reincarnation, mediums, near-death experiences, etc. are much more known now. Not to say the majority accepts all the 'new' thinking but it is not considered as far-out as it used to be.

Traditional religions are losing ground to people creating their own designer spiritual beliefs. I hear the term 'spiritual but not religious' a lot in recent years. Many of these 'define your own beliefs' people do incorporate aspects of so=called new age/different thinking.
 

Erebus

Well-Known Member
I have to say, it's funny you say that because I'm a trained scientist myself and very much do adore science. *laughs* I will admit that presentations of occult philosophy that are transparent rather than using mystical jargon are easier for me to follow. I think this is more the fault of occult writers not clearly explaining their jargon, however. It's not dissimilar to what happens to me if I read a paper too far outside of my area of scientific expertise: they use different jargon and if you don't know the jargon, what they write makes a lot less sense.

I spent ages writing a response and then accidentally refreshed the page :facepalm:

I did overgeneralize a tad in my post and I take your point(s) though homeopathy et al still irritate me. I also don't mind occult organisations and even shops selling supplies. By charlatans I was referring more to the "instant spell kits" and such that some people peddle.

Now jargon is an interesting area since many (most?) occultists seem to lie in a sort of grey area between psychology and the "supernatural" in the first place. As such the jargon used is often drawn from both areas but does not always entirely suit the purpose it's intended for. Many of the concepts dealt with by occultists are phenomenally difficult to express and so it's little wonder communication often breaks down.
It's easier for more seasoned practitioners since they have experienced themselves much of what another practitioner might be trying to convey. In such instances the language used by each practitioner is quickly understood. When speaking with an outsider these concepts are not easily conveyed which can be frustrating for both parties.

Now this intrigued me:

So it's just cosplay, then? LARPing? A game?

One way to look at it would be LARPing with a purpose. Since the magician is looking to alter their perception about something the robes, candles etc essentially become props. Physical cues like this help with the suspension of disbelief and thus make it more likely that you will successfully use the placebo effect on yourself. If you were so inclined you could replace the occult paraphernalia with a hospital "role-play" and a sugar pill for much the same effect.
The difficulty stems from learning to control your own mind and shape your perception of yourself and those around you in such a way that it benefits you. My favourite example is of a spell to increase sex appeal. If the magician successfully suspends disbelief they will be more confident and thus more attractive. Because they're more attractive they'll have more success in love. There you have a simple example of an entirely psychological ritual having a real world effect. We call it magic for the same reason an actor doesn't tell the audience they're watching a work of fiction. It disrupts the immersion, the suspension of disbelief.

That's one of the most basic premises. Many occultists (myself included) believe there is also what could be considered a supernatural element. However, this is a lot more complicated to explain and not really much use to most people of an empirical mindset.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
What this really amounts to is your disagreeing that occultism can have merit for anyone
When did I say this, exactly?

and that Quintessence has the right to define "god" in whatever manner that works for her.
You and anyone else have the "right" to redefine any word any way you want, but if you're interested in communicating with other people, you have to take into account their understanding.

I have every right to use the term "baby" to mean "ham sandwich" if I want; what I don't have is the right to not have people look at me funny when I say "I just ate a baby."

You have the right to express yourself however you want. You don't have the right to force my thinking to align with yours. It boggles my mind that you're spinning a reluctance of others not to have your thinking imposed on them as denying a "right" to you.

Communication is benefited more by asking and attempting to understand another's perspective than by insisting that the common understanding must be what something means or how it is valued.
So then why do you disregard my perspective? Your OP purported to ask what I and others who don't share your perspective think. I told you what I think; why are you criticizing me for doing what you asked?

If we disregard common understanding, then where does that get us? "Magic" means one thing to me and something else to you. Even if we set aside common understanding, we still don't have agreement. If you want me to change my mind, you have to persuade me. This is just how communication works.
 

Infinitum

Possessed Bookworm
From my perspective it's not just about what works and which scientific concept is behind it, but also where the practices have originally came from. Those who practice magic(k), occultism or spellcraft take their inspiration from an old inheritance that's much more complex than just "true" or "false". Magic has involved everything from psychology to trance states, from medicine to alchemy. Now we know some of it doesn't work, but those within Paganism and modern magical systems appreciate the ideas and symbols behind them and are able to gain something from them into their own lives. The reason why these people don't simply go over to using hypnotism or placebo or whatever is, in my view, because the explanation is just part of the equation. Magick doesn't become hypnosis just because hypnosis is the explanation for why magick works. What comes to my mind is the Japanese tea seremony, which practicly is just serving a cup of tea, but which for the participant is much more significant than that.
 

HerDotness

Lady Babbleon
Straw man, anyone?

No, it was not a straw man at all. "Imagery" and "fantasy" indicate that the person knows full well that these are simply useful ideas which haven't a basis in empirical reality.

No, I'm just saying that when you go to a great deal of trouble to erect a facade, you shouldn't be surprised when people assume there's an actual building behind it to match.

Who said I was surprised by it? People have all kinds of preconceived misconceptions about others' beliefs. The problem arises when they insist that they know better than you do what you're about.

This has nothing to do with unicorns, but it does have something to do with figuring that a person really means what they say, and that the things that they invest time and effort in actually matter to them.

No, it has to do with people who regard the common view of New Agers and occultists as the way each and every one believes and practices.

If I walk around town wearing camouflage and safety orange, people will assume I'm a hunter even if I'm not. If I tell people that I engage in magic, people will think that I'm trying to do something with the supernatural even if I only mean something like "the power of positive thinking".

And if they're astute and wish to be fair and not make unwarranted assumptions, those observing your clothing would ask, "Have you been hunting? "Are you going hunting?" or if the answer is "No," "Why are you wearing hunting clothing? Do you just like the look?"

Once again when I tell you or anyone else that I'm into occult magick, is people thinking that I fit their preconceived notion of what that means fair?

What this boils down to is that no matter how often a Catholic or Hindu explains that no, they do not make idols of statues in their respective faiths, "everybody knows" that they're really praying to those statues, idolatry.

So it's just cosplay, then? LARPing? A game?

No.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
No, it was not a straw man at all. "Imagery" and "fantasy" indicate that the person knows full well that these are simply useful ideas which haven't a basis in empirical reality.
The person employing them, probably. Those around them, probably not.

Who said I was surprised by it? People have all kinds of preconceived misconceptions about others' beliefs. The problem arises when they insist that they know better than you do what you're about.
Seeing how you just did that to me, the irony is palpable.

No, it has to do with people who regard the common view of New Agers and occultists as the way each and every one believes and practices.
Bloody hell. You started this as a discussion of general impressions. Now you're criticizing me for speaking to general impressions?

What did you plan to get out of this thread, exactly?

And if they're astute and wish to be fair and not make unwarranted assumptions, those observing your clothing would ask, "Have you been hunting? "Are you going hunting?" or if the answer is "No," "Why are you wearing hunting clothing? Do you just like the look?"
In this thread, I've been asking questions and trying not to make unwarranted assumptions, and I feel like I've been shouted down for doing it.

Once again when I tell you or anyone else that I'm into occult magick, is people thinking that I fit their preconceived notion of what that means fair?
If words have meaning, then yes.

What this boils down to is that no matter how often a Catholic or Hindu explains that no, they do not make idols of statues in their respective faiths, "everybody knows" that they're really praying to those statues, idolatry.
Of course, it's more fun to complain than to actually correct misunderstandings, right? If you think I've got you wrong, then explain what's right; all this complaining about how awful I am for having got things wrong is a sideshow.

So then what are you doing? Do the "magical" trappings matter or not?
 
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