What's so bad about "woo-woo" beliefs?

[HerDotness]

As for your question 'Why not, do you think?' (regarding public acceptance of new age/different spiritual beliefs in the last 30+ years).

I'm going to slightly disagree with the premise of your question. I think since the 1970's things like reincarnation, mediums, near-death experiences, etc. are much more known now. Not to say the majority accepts all the 'new' thinking but it is not considered as far-out as it used to be.

Traditional religions are losing ground to people creating their own designer spiritual beliefs. I hear the term 'spiritual but not religious' a lot in recent years. Many of these 'define your own beliefs' people do incorporate aspects of so=called new age/different thinking.

Yanno, I think you're right. Things really have opened up more than my OP indicates.

When I first got interested in reincarnation in the late 60's, it was very difficult where I lived in Central Kansas to find anything at all about it other than how it figures in Hinduism or Buddhism.

Barely ten years later, bookstores were starting to carry works on reincarnation by Westerners, several of which reflected Westernized interpretations of it within a New Age context somewhat like Watts' practicing Zen without considering himself a Buddhist.

By the early 1980's, it was much easier to find books on various occult and New Age topics from channeling to mediumship to creative visualization...and so forth than it had been.

I'm whining too much, I've concluded, probably as a result of living in the Central U.S. where occultism is pretty much still in the closet in terms of understanding and acceptance of those who are serious practitioners.

 

[HerDotness]

Of course, it's more fun to complain than to actually correct misunderstandings, right? If you think I've got you wrong, then explain what's right; all this complaining about how awful I am for having got things wrong is a sideshow.

And why should I when you characterize what I'm saying as complaining that you're "awful...for having got things wrong"?

I'm not complaining, but you haven't seemed terribly interested in finding out whether there might be more to it than belief in Santa Claus or unicorns.

It hasn't seemed to me thus far that you're interested in understanding why I do what I do so much as insisting that I fit the common notion that all occultists are into hocus-pocus and mumbo-jumbo which they take as seriously as if there were anything worthwhile to it.

So then what are you doing? Do the "magical" trappings matter or not?

Trying to explain what I do and what it does for me is like trying to tell someone who's never had sex what it feels like.

I'll take your second question as indicating a desire to learn about how I regard what I do.

No, the "magickal trappings" don't matter a whit to me, assuming you refer to robes, candles, wands, and the like. I tried them when I first got into doing rituals because I was told that beginners should use the specified implements rather than assuming they know better or can do the ritual without them.

I did various rituals with implements and without them, discovering that I could achieve the intended result easier, more readily and much faster without that stuff slowing and bogging me down. It was rather like being told that you must put on a coat, scarf, hat and gloves to go out in the cold; you try that and find that it's all too much, you're quite comfortable in a shirt and jeans.

Just to check that I wasn't being stupid and risking emotional or psychological trauma, I asked a more experienced mage if what I was getting from the ritual was what the result was supposed to be. He questioned me pretty intently about what physical and mental sensations and images I experienced at various stages and said that that's what was supposed to occur, remarking that it was unusual for someone newly into this type of ritual work to be able to perform these rituals correctly without using implements.

Now, maybe he was lying to me, but since he was a national officer in a magick lodge, I figured he was telling the truth. Another mage with whom I checked what I was doing said that I was getting what the ritual was supposed to produce so quit worrying about it but exercise a reasonable caution when I approached the more involved rituals; I might find that using the implements would prevent my getting too headlong and overwhelming myself to an extent that I couldn't handle.

Ultimately, I've found that I can do the less complex rituals satisfactorily without even going through the motions such as the prescribed gestures and walking in a circle in a particular direction. I sit or stand and run the ritual steps mentally, saying the words in my mind...works just as well and leaves me energized and refreshed if that's the purpose or relieved of troubling thoughts if that's the intent.

Btw, spelling the word "magick" isn't pretentious as you seem to be suggesting. It's done to distinguish occult magick from pulling rabbits out of hats and sawing pretty women in half, to signify that it's an entirely different sort of thing.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

And why should I when you characterize what I'm saying as complaining that you're "awful...for having got things wrong"?

I dunno. You seem to care about people misunderstanding you, so if you think I'm misunderstanding you, then you can either choose to correct that misunderstanding or not. It's up to you.

I'm not complaining, but you haven't seemed terribly interested in finding out whether there might be more to it than belief in Santa Claus or unicorns.

Frankly, I've kinda given up. I've already made attempts to find out. Case in point: http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...ligions-dir/127776-what-do-you-do-magick.html

It hasn't seemed to me thus far that you're interested in understanding why I do what I do so much as insisting that I fit the common notion that all occultists are into hocus-pocus and mumbo-jumbo which they take as seriously as if there were anything worthwhile to it.

I think that's a misrepresentation of what I've said, but regardless, are you really upset that someone gave their opinion in a thread where you solicited people for their opinions?

Trying to explain what I do and what it does for me is like trying to tell someone who's never had sex what it feels like.

I'll take your second question as indicating a desire to learn about how I regard what I do.

No, the "magickal trappings" don't matter a whit to me, assuming you refer to robes, candles, wands, and the like. I tried them when I first got into doing rituals because I was told that beginners should use the specified implements rather than assuming they know better or can do the ritual without them.

By "trappings", I mean the specifics of your rituals, whatever they are: form, implements, whatever.

I did various rituals with implements and without them, discovering that I could achieve the intended result easier, more readily and much faster without that stuff slowing and bogging me down. It was rather like being told that you must put on a coat, scarf, hat and gloves to go out in the cold; you try that and find that it's all too much, you're quite comfortable in a shirt and jeans.

Just to check that I wasn't being stupid and risking emotional or psychological trauma, I asked a more experienced mage if what I was getting from the ritual was what the result was supposed to be. He questioned me pretty intently about what physical and mental sensations and images I experienced at various stages and said that that's what was supposed to occur, remarking that it was unusual for someone newly into this type of ritual work to be able to perform these rituals correctly without using implements.

Now, maybe he was lying to me, but since he was a national officer in a magick lodge, I figured he was telling the truth. Another mage with whom I checked what I was doing said that I was getting what the ritual was supposed to produce so quit worrying about it but exercise a reasonable caution when I approached the more involved rituals; I might find that using the implements would prevent my getting too headlong and overwhelming myself to an extent that I couldn't handle.

So what do your rituals produce? What's supposed to occur?

Btw, spelling the word "magick" isn't pretentious as you seem to be suggesting. It's done to distinguish occult magick from pulling rabbits out of hats and sawing pretty women in half, to signify that it's an entirely different sort of thing.

I didn't suggest that there was pretentiousness behind it:

AFAIK, the term "magick" was coined to differentiate "real" magic from stage "magic" illusions. Since it's obvious from the context here that we're not talking about sleight-of-hand performed for entertainment, I see no need to worry about the K.

I did get a bit annoyed, though, when one poster made a big deal out of the fact that I said "magic" and not "magick", even though it was obvious from context that I wasn't talking about stage illusions.

 

[Quintessence]

I did get a bit annoyed, though, when one poster made a big deal out of the fact that I said "magic" and not "magick", even though it was obvious from context that I wasn't talking about stage illusions.

Hahah, oh man that starts so many stupid arguments in Neopagan and occult circles sometimes. Personally, I don't like using the term magic at all to describe what is being discussed in this thread right now. "Magic" means far too many things, and I prefer to use that word as a synonym for god/spirit/deity/sacred instead. To describe the occult practices often called magic I prefer to use the word spellcraft. Less ambiguity, and no need to worry about that silly "k" issue.

 

[HerDotness]

I dunno. You seem to care about people misunderstanding you, so if you think I'm misunderstanding you, then you can either choose to correct that misunderstanding or not. It's up to you.

Believe me, I've tried and so far you seem to regard what I've said as complaining or obfuscating.

Frankly, I've kinda given up. I've already made attempts to find out. Case in point: http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...ligions-dir/127776-what-do-you-do-magick.html

Quite honestly, I'd say that if nothing said there makes any sense to you or explains why people get into it and what they get from it, give up asking. You probably are unlikely to have the sort of mind that can comprehend why magick can be of any value or utility, any more than I can understand what satisfaction my cousin who's a thermal engineer could possibly get out of figuring out what the effects of heat will be on various components of aircraft and how to build them to last longer under harsh conditions.

There were some really very good explanations on that thread, I thought. Quite reasonable attempts to explain what sex feels like to someone who's never had it.

I think that's a misrepresentation of what I've said, but regardless, are you really upset that someone gave their opinion in a thread where you solicited people for their opinions?

Not particularly...what bothers me is what seems to be your use of dismissive terminology. Perhaps we're too different to understand each other's perceptions.

So what do your rituals produce? What's supposed to occur?

I use them to achieve altered states of mind primarily. At a specific point in one ritual, I should get a mental image of the color red, at another blue, at the third an earthy brown...and so forth. Edit to add: Interestingly, I was once doing a fairly simple ritual and inadvertently said the wrong angel name for the direction I was facing, north. I kept seeing brown and wondered why I wasn't seeing the blue that I should have seen for the angel whose name I'd called. It honestly felt as if there was someone there in front of me saying, "No, you idiot. That's his name [pointing to the appropriate compass point]. You're at my point and seeing my color because this is where *I* am, not where he is."

When chanting the words, some must be vibrated and should almost echo if said with sufficient force and clarity to the point that it seems the room is talking back to me. My whole body vibrates quite literally if I'm chanting that portion correctly. At another stage, blood suffuses my face making it warm and ruddy if I've done the steps properly. The end results are far more complex than that, and trying to detail the various effects would take far too long to explain why it's those particular ones and not others.

I didn't suggest that there was pretentiousness behind it:

I did get a bit annoyed, though, when one poster made a big deal out of the fact that I said "magic" and not "magick", even though it was obvious from context that I wasn't talking about stage illusions.

Okay, well, maybe you ran into someone intent upon deifying various things such as the guy on a thread once asking how everybody celebrated Crowleymas. I spit what I was drinking onto my monitor, I was laughing so hard. Someone suggested sex toys as suitable gifts...a few very specific ones.

Many of us use the spelling "magick" out of sheer habit since that's the way it appears in the texts we use. I prefer that spelling to clarify that occult magick is what's being discussed so as to avoid any confusion, also because it's simply the appropriate term. And I tend, perhaps unfairly, to regard suspiciously someone who insists that "magic" is a perfectly good spelling, no need to add that unnecessary "k". To some extent, using magick-with-a-k reflects the desire to be precise and to indicate that you know what you're talking about. I spell Qabalah that way rather than Kabbalah, the latter being the Jewish Kabbalists' spelling, to signify that I'm into what they consider the bastardization of it.

 

[HerDotness]

To describe the occult practices often called magic I prefer to use the word spellcraft. Less ambiguity, and no need to worry about that silly "k" issue.

And I don't do anything ordinarily termed spells, so "spellcrafting" is completely inapt to refer to what I do. Most of those whom I've heard use the term use it to signify hearth magicks such as cleansing a room with a smudge stick or other forms of practical magick such as putting an herb-filled bag under one's pillow to aid sleep and bring pleasant dreams. I'd simply walk around the room mentally "dusting" it if I felt a need to do something of that sort. Probably just paranoia relieved by magical thinking.

 

[blackout]

Whatever names you slap on them,
some people employ .... things that engage them....
to healthy, personally enriching ends.

In another person's hands (mind),
the very same externals (outer tools)
can instead result in great personal loss.

This could be said about many things...
many activities...
from ritual magic to video gaming.

 

[blackout]

IMO 'the hidden'/'the covered'/'the eclipsed',
implies the esoteric.

Any practice that is more concerned with itself
(the outer... visible forms, molds or 'casts' of the thing)
than the enrichment of the Inner Life
the practice is (supposedly) employed to serve,
is not occult (hidden)....
or esoteric, in nature.

This would be an exoteric practice.

Mostly, I break practices down into two categories-
exoteric/literalized
and
esoteric/symbolic.

Extreme over employment of the first,
(by the population at large)
tends to keep the second
extremely well 'occulted' from the masses.
(or 'the mass mind', or the 'public eye')

The TRUE meaning of the Occult is "The Hidden"
or the covered.
What you see (depicted) out in broad daylight...
is not the Occult.
(unless you are the only one 'seeing' 'it')

It's more of an 'in'spired' or 'in'ternal' affair.
It reflects the individual.
As well, it is dependent on the reflection/s
(ie, deep inner consideration/s)
of the individual.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I don't really have an issue with "new-age" beliefs any more than I have an issue with more conventional religion. I find people who belong in religions insulting those who hold more fringe beliefs to be extremely hypocritical. The belief that believes Jesus sacrificed himself for our souls is just as silly to me as the belief in Wicca, fairies or chakra energies.

That having been said, I would definitely say that there is one particular knock-on effect of "new-age" beliefs that I particularly object to: it's impact on medicine and, in particular, the rise of alternative "medicine". Frankly, I hold the opinion that almost all people who practice alternative "medicine" are not too short of being full-blown con artists.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Believe me, I've tried and so far you seem to regard what I've said as complaining or obfuscating.

Then try not complaining and obfuscating.

Quite honestly, I'd say that if nothing said there makes any sense to you or explains why people get into it and what they get from it, give up asking. You probably are unlikely to have the sort of mind that can comprehend why magick can be of any value or utility, any more than I can understand what satisfaction my cousin who's a thermal engineer could possibly get out of figuring out what the effects of heat will be on various components of aircraft and how to build them to last longer under harsh conditions.

There were some really very good explanations on that thread, I thought. Quite reasonable attempts to explain what sex feels like to someone who's never had it.

I think there were reasonable individual posts, but when taken all together, we get a conflicting mish-mash.

And it's happening again with this thread. I've had practitioners of magic(k) tell me about what they do before and some of them have talked about things that sound to me like manipulation of the supernatural, but when I ask questions based on what they've told me to you, you go on about how I'm all wrong and I'm basing my understanding on nothing.

Here's what I think is going on: you have one particular understanding of magic(k) out of a spectrum of understandings that real people actually have. Since this thread purports to be about these belief systems in general and not just about your particular case, I think they're relevant even if you reject them personally.

Not particularly...what bothers me is what seems to be your use of dismissive terminology. Perhaps we're too different to understand each other's perceptions.

When have I been dismissive, exactly?

I use them to achieve altered states of mind primarily. At a specific point in one ritual, I should get a mental image of the color red, at another blue, at the third an earthy brown...and so forth. Edit to add: Interestingly, I was once doing a fairly simple ritual and inadvertently said the wrong angel name for the direction I was facing, north. I kept seeing brown and wondered why I wasn't seeing the blue that I should have seen for the angel whose name I'd called. It honestly felt as if there was someone there in front of me saying, "No, you idiot. That's his name [pointing to the appropriate compass point]. You're at my point and seeing my color because this is where *I* am, not where he is."

When chanting the words, some must be vibrated and should almost echo if said with sufficient force and clarity to the point that it seems the room is talking back to me. My whole body vibrates quite literally if I'm chanting that portion correctly. At another stage, blood suffuses my face making it warm and ruddy if I've done the steps properly. The end results are far more complex than that, and trying to detail the various effects would take far too long to explain why it's those particular ones and not others.

So how does inducing altered states of consciousness become a belief system? I mean, what you describe sounds a lot like a drug experience without the drug, but most recreational drug users don't describe their drug use as a belief system or a religion.

I know there are some people who use entheogens in their religious practice, but in these cases, I think they put additional significance on the experience; they see it as a way to gain special spiritual or mystical knowledge, for instance.

At the risk of being treated with suspicion by you, I do think that the difference doesn't really matter that much. At the very least, we can recognize that the two terms are closely related and share a common root.

And in older writings, I think they are the same word, with the different uses just being chalked up to the fact that they were written before English developed standardized spellings.

I really don't see how the extra "k" creates any extra precision.

But if you think I'm wrong, then feel free to explain the difference between "magic" and "magick".

 

[Quintessence]

I think there were reasonable individual posts, but when taken all together, we get a conflicting mish-mash.

Well... yeah? Were you expecting something other than a conflicting mish-mash? Those who participate in the New Age, Neopagan, and occult movements have different ideas about various metaphysical topics, including but hardly limited to the subject of magic. Of course if you take it all together you're going to get conflicts!

What I usually try to do is aim to understand someone's particular approach to the territory. There is inevitably going to be conflict somewhere between how various insiders and outsiders see things. For example, in deciding whether spellcraft is "supernaturalistic" or not, practitioners themselves will differ on this. Some will say it is, some will say it isn't; regardless of what the say, the language they use to describe it may appear to someone else as something else entirely. We interpret what others say to us from the lens of our own worldview. It's good to ask every so often "why did I think that?" and also "why did they think that?"

 

[HerDotness]

We interpret what others say to us from the lens of our own worldview. It's good to ask every so often "why did I think that?" and also "why did they think that?"

I think I've learned something from this that I can apply in future. So, perhaps it was a worthwhile thread after all.

Quintessence said above what I think as well. I usually don't attempt to explain what I get from doing ritual and why I find it valuable. Now, I have a better understanding of why it's wiser not to try to explain.

You'd think I'd know better as many times as I've attempted to do so only to be told that the receiver has other ideas altogether about what I'm doing and why.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Well... yeah? Were you expecting something other than a conflicting mish-mash? Those who participate in the New Age, Neopagan, and occult movements have different ideas about various metaphysical topics, including but hardly limited to the subject of magic. Of course if you take it all together you're going to get conflicts!

I expect people to have different perspective, but I would also expect people to know that there are beliefs beyond their own perspectives.

I find it annoying and frustrating that on the one hand, I've had people tell me that they can use magick to heal others or to manipulate the outcome of the lottery, but then when I come into this thread, I'm painted as some sort of liar or idiot for "assuming" that some practitioners of magic(k) really do believe that their rituals have supernatural effects, when the only reason I assumed it in the first place is because actual practitioners of magic(k) have told me that this is what they do.

If this doesn't reflect your personal take on things, or Dot's, or anyone else's, that's fine for you, but this thread is about general impressions of these things as a whole, so the whole spectrum of belief and experience is relevant.

 

[Quintessence]

I mentioned the lens thing in particular through my experiences talking with others on metaphysical topics, even fellow Neopagans. The way they talk about things and how I interpret them are sometimes not the same. I try to be aware of when I'm doing this as much as possible, but it is hard.

Early on in my path I read some sagacious advice: put off the need to label your mystical experiences. Why? Labels get in the way sometimes, and knowing how to put many labels on the same experience can be useful in speaking to others.

I don't know if I'd go to the point of "don't try to explain." I'm too curious of a person for that, but there are definitely times it doesn't feel worth the effort. Usually this is when the other person is not interested in the first place or is asking because they want to stroke their own beliefs instead of understand others. Other times I just plain have a hard time stringing my own words together and that is why I don't reply. >_<;

EDIT: 9-10ths, if I have at all painted you as a liar or an idiot, I apologize. I definitely don't you see in that category of people who aren't worth the effort and you seem quite respectful and cordial overall. I think that since the occult isn't exactly mainstream, we get somewhat used to people having a ton of misconceptions and assume people have little to no active knowledge of the topics. Usually this is a correct assumption, but when it isn't, some of us may put our foots in our mouths. I'm sorry if I've done that.

 

[HerDotness]

HerDotness: Believe me, I've tried and so far you seem to regard what I've said as complaining or obfuscating.
Penguin: Then try not complaining and obfuscating.

When have I been dismissive, exactly?

See above for one clearcut example.

I really don't see how the extra "k" creates any extra precision.
But if you think I'm wrong, then feel free to explain the difference between "magic" and "magick".

I did. I gave my explanation that it's a matter of choosing a spelling not typically associated with sleight of hand magic to distinguish the two so as to prevent confusing one for the other.

Repeating what I've already said is evidently not going to change your mind that there's no difference but in the spelling between sleight of hand magic and magick as practiced today.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

See above for one clearcut example.

Seeing how I hadn't written that when you made your comment, I don't think it's what you were referring to.

I did. I gave my explanation that it's a matter of choosing a spelling not typically associated with sleight of hand magic to distinguish the two so as to prevent confusing one for the other.

Repeating what I've already said is evidently not going to change your mind that there's no difference but in the spelling between sleight of hand magic and magick as practiced today.

That's never been what I said.

I think it's interesting, though, that there's a trend among people who do stage "magic" call themselves "illusionists" or "mentalists" as to not give the impression that they're claiming to do actual magic. Apparently, they've caught on to the fact that the word "magic" implies something other than sleight-of-hand tricks.

 

[A Troubled Man]

We interpret what others say to us from the lens of our own worldview. It's good to ask every so often "why did I think that?" and also "why did they think that?"

Very true, but often that is the result of one side interpreting what others say from a position of ignorance; ie. their worldview. From that position, others will understand and conclude that worldview is one of woo woo beliefs.

 

[Nakosis]

I find it annoying and frustrating that on the one hand, I've had people tell me that they can use magick to heal others or to manipulate the outcome of the lottery, but then when I come into this thread, I'm painted as some sort of liar or idiot for "assuming" that some practitioners of magic(k) really do believe that their rituals have supernatural effects, when the only reason I assumed it in the first place is because actual practitioners of magic(k) have told me that this is what they do.

A Wiccan once told me that spells were prayers with props.
I see in the effect of prayer for the person praying, confidence, motivation to go forth and do what needs to be done. Spiritual uplifting to continue on. Rituals and prayer provide a peace and confidence that some need to face the adversity of life sometimes.

Perhaps not supernatural but psychological benefits. Rituals provide a balance of thought. A bit of mystical wonderment. It frees the imagination to what might be possible.

I see no harm as long as no one is insisting anyone else be impressed by it.

 

[HerDotness]

I find it annoying and frustrating that on the one hand, I've had people tell me that they can use magick to heal others or to manipulate the outcome of the lottery, but then when I come into this thread, I'm painted as some sort of liar or idiot for "assuming" that some practitioners of magic(k) really do believe that their rituals have supernatural effects, when the only reason I assumed it in the first place is because actual practitioners of magic(k) have told me that this is what they do.

And there we have why I've felt so frustrated trying to get across to you that NO, I do NOT consider what I do with ritual to involve the supernatural. Apparently, you've encountered a number of people who do consider their rituals to have supernatural effects. So, it's frustrating when despite various attempts to demonstrate otherwise, what I do is considered to be the same thing as you've previously been told others do.

I've had some strange things happen when doing ritual, but I'm not the least bit confident that I know what occurred--whether it was a manifestation of my own subconscious, my imagination running berserk, a lapse into hallucination or delusion or just what. Maybe there was something supernatural to a few of those experiences. I'd really like to know but haven't as yet found any way to determine whether there could be or not.

I'm not entirely averse to the idea that there may be things "out there" that most humans are incapable of perceiving ordinarily but which occasionally manage to insinuate themselves into our minds and lives such as stories of people who were headed straight for a headon collision but suddenly found themselves and their car on the other side of the speeding vehicle that was headed at them and attributed that to supernatural aid. Delusion? Mental gymnastics explaining how both drivers managed to avoid the collision somehow? Or something altogether uncanny? I don't know.

If this doesn't reflect your personal take on things, or Dot's, or anyone else's, that's fine for you, but this thread is about general impressions of these things as a whole, so the whole spectrum of belief and experience is relevant.

Of course, it is on the whole relevant but only tangentially so to me, and that it is only tangential has been my point all along.

When I've insisted that I don't think what I'm doing contacts the supernatural, and don't intend it to do so, then it helps if you accept that unlike so many others you've encountered and unlike the common understanding of what occult beliefs and practices involve, there are some of us who perceive it all quite contrary to the common view.

Maybe we can begin to understand each other better henceforth. That would be good if so.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Dot, hopefully this will help you understand my take on the whole "magic" vs. "magick" thing:

Professional wrestling is performed with the pretense that it's real wrestling. I acknowlegde that it's fake, but this doesn't make me feel the need to find some other new term to describe real wrestling.

By the same token, stage "magic" is performed with the pretense that it's real magic. I acknowledge that it's fake, but this doesn't make me feel the need to find some other term to describe real magic.

When I leave the "k" off, I'm not trying to suggest that practitioners of magick do things like pull rabbits out of hats or saw women in half.