What's Wrong With Joel Osteen?

[Kenny]

You make a valid point.

It is important to note here that Jesus never had a dime to His name. If fact, he let the thief in the group carry the money bag. He relied totally on His faith rather than money.

He had his own treasurer?
Why did he need one?

 

[DavidFirth]

He had his own treasurer?
Why did he need one?

Why do you think?

 

[Kenny]

Why do you think?

I asked first.

 

[DavidFirth]

I asked first.

Yes, you did. But if you expect me to answer you'll have to answer my question first.

 

[Kenny]

You make a valid point.

It is important to note here that Jesus never had a dime to His name. If fact, he let the thief in the group carry the money bag. He relied totally on His faith rather than money.

Then let me be more specific...

"never had a dime to His name" and a person in the "group carry the money bag" are a dichotomy of statements.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Wrong on both accounts instead of just rambling on.

No, really. Every time I bring up some clear quotation from Jesus that contradicts your position, you just brush it off with "oh - he was talking about people's hearts" - as if this unsupported assertion explains why we should interpret the passages to nean the opposite of what they actually say.

Let's see how honest you are and if you are open to real dialogue.

Did Jesus believe what was written by Moses as coming from the Creator and to be true?

You just complained about me supposedly "seeing into the hearts of people" and now you want me to discern the beliefs of your purported man-god? Funny.

AFAIK, he never comes out and explicitly endorses everything written by Moses. He speaks about "the law", but from his words and actions, it seems that what Jesus considers "the law" is different from the prevailing view of the time.

And if we bring Paul into it (and since you seem keen to reconcile the Bible against itself, I assume you will want to), apparently, Christians have "died to the law"; IOW, it's still in effect, but Christians are exempt and follow something else instead.

 

[DavidFirth]

Then let me be more specific...

"never had a dime to His name" and a person in the "group carry the money bag" are a dichotomy of statements.

No, they are not. The person carrying the money bag had free access to it. Jesus wanted all of the money donated to the poor.

Jesus didn't need any money. Reread Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

 

[Kenny]

No, really. Every time I bring up some clear quotation from Jesus that contradicts your position, you just brush it off with "oh - he was talking about people's hearts" - as if this unsupported assertion explains why we should interpret the passages to nean the opposite of what they actually say.


You just complained about me supposedly "seeing into the hearts of people" and now you want me to discern the beliefs of your purported man-god? Funny.

AFAIK, he never comes out and explicitly endorses everything written by Moses. He speaks about "the law", but from his words and actions, it seems that what Jesus considers "the law" is different from the prevailing view of the time.

And if we bring Paul into it (and since you seem keen to reconcile the Bible against itself, I assume you will want to), apparently, Christians have "died to the law"; IOW, it's still in effect, but Christians are exempt and follow something else instead.

You're rambling and adding Paul.... but to continue to give you an opportunity to honest dialogue...

Luke 18:31 Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, “We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled.

Matt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Matt 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Matt 4:4 But he answered and said,It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Matt 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

Matt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Mark 4:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

Mark 14:27 And Jesus saith unto them,All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.


There are a litany of other scriptures, so one simple question (so as to not obfuscate the issue) ...



Can we establish that Jesus agreed that their scriptures spoken by the prophets and that of Moses were from God.

 

[Kenny]

No, they are not. The person carrying the money bag had free access to it. Jesus wanted all of the money donated to the poor.

Jesus didn't need any money. Reread Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

Yes, Jesus could get all he needed whether through prayer or out of the mouth of a fish. But it also says in Luke 8
2 along with some women who had been cured of evil spirits and diseases. Among them were Mary Magdalene, from whom he had cast out seven demons;
3 Joanna, the wife of Chula, Herod’s business manager; Susanna; and many others who were contributing from their own resources to support Jesus and his disciples.

So he had money also and had someone (who was a thief) handle the money.

So your points are indeed a dichotomy of statements UNLESS "resources to support Jesus and his disciples" doesn't mean money.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Can we establish that Jesus agreed that their scriptures spoken by the prophets and that of Moses were from God.

Since the Gospels describe him not acting that way, the best you'll get from me is that Jesus paid lip-service to the idea, but then did his own thing.

 

[Kenny]

Since the Gospels describe him not acting that way, the best you'll get from me is that Jesus paid lip-service to the idea, but then did his own thing.

OK... then, in reality, we can never come to a position of debate as the very premise of our positions are already at odds. Jesus said he came to fulfill the law. In my view that means he believed that it was from God. There are innumerable amount of scriptures that he quotes and refers to with statements such as "that it might be fulfilled". I don't call that lip service.

So now I understand why we aren't seeing eye to eye.

Shalom

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

OK... then, in reality, we can never come to a position of debate as the very premise of our positions are already at odds. Jesus said he came to fulfill the law.

... but then broke the law of the Sabbath, among others.

 

[Kenny]

... but then broke the law of the Sabbath, among others.

No, he broke the laws of the Talmud, not the laws of the Torah

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, he broke the laws of the Talmud, not the laws of the Torah

Jesus says otherwise. His justification for his actions is based on the idea that breaking the law is sometimes warranted:

23 Jesus was going through the grain fields on a Sabbath, and his disciples began to pick some heads of wheat as they made their way. 24 So the Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is against the law on the Sabbath?” 25 He said to them, “Have you never read what David did when he was in need and he and his companions were hungry—26 how he entered the house of God when Abiathar was high priest and ate the sacred bread, which is against the law for any but the priests to eat, and also gave it to his companions?” 27 Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for people, not people for the Sabbath. 28 For this reason the Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath.”

IOW, "I'm breaking the law for a good reason, just like David did."

 

[Twilight Hue]

Why does what he does bother you so much?

If he writes a book and becomes an international best seller, why do you care what he does with his money? (he has written more than one)

What is your motive?

His particular craft and trade dosent suit what he preaches as a man of the cloth.

Past a certain point, it really begs a person to ask the question as to why people like Joel are so infatuated with extreme excess and opulance that lay well beyond reasonability.

Something for which they could clearly live a long and prosperous life with absolutely nothing to personally sacrifice past a particular amount or threshold that would more than comfortably, sustain a person and his family exceedingly well.

I'm not talking about the required amounts that more than adequately covers a person's lifetime needs and wants. I'm talking about the extravagance that lays well past all that.

It really comes across loud and clear as a type of mental sickness that comes from excessive acquisition. Not just Joel, or Oprah, or Bill Gates, or that pretty cool guy from Virgin.

Something clicks in their lives that changes a person once they have "made it" to the top of the world, and those piles of cash and it's luxuries keep piling up and up in seemingly endless fashion.

Pastor or not,. that cannot be healthy for so many reasons.

 

[Kenny]

Jesus says otherwise. His justification for his actions is based on the idea that breaking the law is sometimes warranted:

IOW, "I'm breaking the law for a good reason, just like David did."

No... He was explaining the Torah... i.e.Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for people, not people for the Sabbath. 28 For this reason the Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath.”

but you can believe that if you want.

 

[Kenny]

His particular craft and trade dosent suit what he preaches as a man of the cloth.

In what you view a "man of the cloth" is supposed to be. But why is your view correct?

Past a certain point, it really begs a person to ask the question as to why people like Joel are so infatuated with extreme excess and opulance that lay well beyond reasonability.

That would be according to your standard and very subjective.. I know people in Honduras who would say you live with extreme excess and opulence. Did you find where God told Job, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, Solomon that they were infatuated with excess and opulence?

I think it is a matter of the heart.

Some people get infuriated at others success because of jealousy and criticize the rich making the jealousy in the name of "beyond reasonability".

You see, no one knows how much he gives. Pastor Rick Warren lives off of royalties of his books and paid back all of his salary. R. G. LeTourneau lived off of 10% and gave 90% and still lived an opulent life.

What percentage do you give to change people's lives? It's easy to judge others without judging oneself. Joel Osteen is changing tens of thousands of lives... how many are you changing?

I think God can take care of who is doing right and who is doing wrong... we will all respond for our lives and not those of others. IMO

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No... He was explaining the Torah... i.e.Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for people, not people for the Sabbath. 28 For this reason the Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath.”

but you can believe that if you want.

Right: Jesus explained how it's okay to break the laws of the Sabbath because the Sabbath wasn't meant to be something that "man" was beholden to.

He also explained how the "Son of Man" (which I take as intended to describe himself - I assume you agree) is "Lord of the Sabbath": i.e. he doesn't feel bound by its rules.

None of this gets you to "Jesus never broke the law." It gets you to "Jesus didn't feel that he needed to obey the law"... which suggests that he probably broke it quite a bit but just didn't care.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What percentage do you give to change people's lives?

That depends: how much do you trust God to provide for your future needs?

Save whatever you think you'll need that you don't think God can be counted on to provide. The rest can be given away.

It's easy to judge others without judging oneself. Joel Osteen is changing tens of thousands of lives... how many are you changing?

Just counting the events where I was a key volunteer, I'd say that as a conservative estimate, I helped to change about 3,000 kids' lives this year. And I didn't get paid a dime for any of it. In fact, I paid out of pocket for my travel and accommodation... and I was happy to do it because I think it's important.

And this is as an atheist; I don't have any faith that a god will provide for my needs, so I save for the future. I don't expect to receive comfort after I die, so I experienve what comfort I feel is reasonable now. I don't think that my "talents" belong to God, so I spend them as if they belong to me.

All else being equal...

I expect that a Christian will trust in God's providence more than I do, so he'll save less for the future than I do.

I expect that a Christian will have more expectation of comfort in the life to come than I do, so he'll spend less on earthly comfort than I do.

I expect that a Christian will consider himself a steward of God's wealth and will spend it in keeping with what a God who loves all of humanity would want, and not use it to favour the person who just happens to be holding the money for God.

... and I see this from some Christians. I don't see it from followers of the "Prosperity Gospel."

 

[Kenny]

Just counting the events where I was a key volunteer, I'd say that as a conservative estimate, I helped to change about 3,000 kids' lives this year.

Great... you only have a few hundred thousand more a year to catch up to Joel and he didn't charge anyone for the effort.