When evangelists knock on your door...

[stvdv]

Like I said already.....we are not breaking the law because what we do does not constitute "soliciting" in the legal sense. It means that we can't be charged because we did not break any law.

@ChristineM had a sign "Unsolicited.....". The dictionary is very simple and clear on this word. Any person knows what this means, especially in this digital age (unsolicited mail). More clear than this she could not make it. And you hiding behind the Law is kind of strange, because I met someone, if I remember correctly, who told me that God's Law is more important than country Law to them. And "unsolicited" is not the same as "soliciting". Most lawyers find loopholes in just 1 character. I think this case is just a good example of this. But then again, it's about decency here, not Law, IMO

That you reply to me with "we are not breaking the Law" feels strange. It's not about being charged or not, it's about being a decent person.
And you have seen by now, that so many people have some kind of problem with the way Jehovah Witnesses act ... this tells me something .. a lot.
One is free to do as one pleases; one is not free to bug others as one pleases. Criteria is the other telling you "now you are bugging me". Accept it

Sometimes the Laws provide loopholes for criminals even. One day these loopholes will be reversed, I am quite convinced of this. Truth will set free.

But I must give you this ... @ChristineM did fight me a little while back on "Mr. X goes against The Law, so no excuse for what he did", so she might be fine with your reply. But I am not. In my heart I know that this is not decent. I follow "STOP means STOP" (don't get smart on words and syntax ... just be respectful) + "Don't do unto others, what you don't want them to do unto you" + "No one has the right to criticize the belief/feelings of others (of course actions can be criticized)" + "Only speak if it improves the Silence (when evangelizing)".

So I agree to disagree on this one. And this is a huge disagreement. But that's life. Of course still wishing you a great day with lots of light

 

[stvdv]

So I agree to disagree on this one. And this is a huge disagreement. But that's life. Of course still wishing you a great day with lots of light

Normally I do think that if we just tell a JW "please we don't need your advice", then in 99% of the time this will be enough to have them leave.
(It used to be a bit different in Holland a few decades ago, but the Jehovah Witnesses did learn from it, as I can see)

Personally I would not have any problem if they come visiting me everyday and talk (+listen) about God (so sharing experiences)
I only get itchy when the other tells me that (s)he knows best, and also knows best what's best for me
I think that is the real bottleneck in this whole thread; not whether or not they visit

 

[ChristineM]

Beautiful and very clear sign; I wish we had them. I expect that all (sane) humans understood this, and you never had any Jehovah Witnesses again.


You must be kidding me, they really did this? Amazing (not grace, though).
This is proof that these Jehovah Witnesses intentionally violated your rights, way to go "Jehovah Witnesses".
I expect @Deeje and @Hockeycowboy to apologize for such behavior; they would never do such a thing. Must be embarrassing for them to read this

They (the signs), and similar are available on Amazon

 

[Deeje]

Normally I do think that if we just tell a JW "please we don't need your advice", then in 99% of the time this will be enough to have them leave.

It is what we are instructed to do by Jesus....
He told his disciples....

“Into whatever city or village you enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until you leave. 12 When you enter the house, greet the household. 13 If the house is deserving, let the peace you wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from you return upon you. 14 Wherever anyone does not receive you or listen to your words, on going out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet." (Matthew 10:11-14)

We have a message of peace and hope to share, but we understand that not everyone wants to hear it.

It gives us no joy when people get hostile, so we will respect their wishes, not only for their sakes but also for our own. Its no fun being yelled at with profanity and obscenities when all you want to do is save their lives.
No one wants to encounter hateful, ignorant people.

Times change...people change....we have modified our methods greatly in the last decade or so. More so in recent years. The internet has opened up better opportunities for getting the message out there as people become more alarmed about the outlook for the future. Thousands contact us for Bible studies every week.

Personally I would not have any problem if they come visiting me everyday and talk (+listen) about God (so sharing experiences)
I only get itchy when the other tells me that (s)he knows best, and also knows best what's best for me
I think that is the real bottleneck in this whole thread; not whether or not they visit

It is very disrespectful to force our view on others.....so we try hard to respect the rights of all to believe as they wish.....but where scripture is involved, when others try to tell us what it says and we know that they have misinterpreted things...it is an obligation to let them know exactly what it says.....not just what we think it says.

I will never post anything of a scriptural nature that I cannot back up. I like to let the Bible explain itself.

 

[stvdv]

They (the signs), and similar are available on Amazon

When I was 20 a friend of mine travelled to the Amazon ... big troubles with being mugged, lost thousands of dollars
So I put Amazon on my "Never to Go List". And maybe because of that I never think about buying from Amazon

Thanks. I had a look. They have nice signs indeed.
I like this one. Unless it's a dog whisperer, it should work I think.
Although Pitbull might be better, and 2.8 sec is a bit slow (I can make it, my fence is not that far)

 

[ChristineM]

When I was 20 a friend of mine travelled to the Amazon ... big troubles with being mugged, lost thousands of dollars
So I put Amazon on my "Never to Go List". And maybe because of that I never think about buying from Amazon

Thanks. I had a look. They have nice signs indeed.
I like this one. Unless it's a dog whisperer, it should work I think.
Although Pitbull might be better, and 2.8 sec is a bit slow (I can make it, my fence is not that far)

View attachment 31628

Do you think this one too subtle?

 

[stvdv]

Do you think this one too subtle?

View attachment 31630

I am not surprised you like this on ... remembering ("Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.)

Not even sure if that is allowed in Holland; needing a license to kill etc
But I can always argue "it only says armed response" meaning "I respond with my arms"

I checked this, and found on a site of the police:

It is prohibited under Dutch law to own or use weapons. Only sport shooters or hunters may use certain weapons; if they have the correct license and abide by the rules of the Weapons and Ammunition Act. In all other cases, possession and use of weapons is punishable.

And I am glad, because that's why we don't have all the shootings you see in the US nowadays

 

[savagewind]

Maybe the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses should be quick to revise their instruction around Matthew 10:11-14. Might it by reason be about the people who have already heard the message and have appeared to accept it? Look at the previous scripture (Matthew 10:10). Then, following that, the next one has to be about the people who will be providing for them as they travel. Those are the people who have already converted or have already accepted the brothers to help them. Matthew 10:11 Commentaries: "And whatever city or village you enter, inquire who is worthy in it, and stay at his house until you leave that city.

You're not supposed to (in my opinion) "shake the dust off your feet" against the unbeliever. It is supposed to be done against the one who acts like one on the outside, but on the inside is like this: you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. Matthew 23:27

It would be silly to disregard the scripture respecting the average person just because it was written to warn the "teachers of the law and the Pharisees", but the Jehovah's Witnesses are teaching.

Please stop using it against those on the outside. And, while I am on the subject of inside and outside, please know that the scripture you use to describe the "World" or the outside is really about the hypocrites on the inside.

"Go throughout the city of Jerusalem (The Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses) and put a mark on the foreheads of those who grieve and lament over all the detestable things that are done in it."

For all you who do not know, the JWs teach that the city of Jerusalem is the world and the mark is Jehovah's Witness baptism.

 

[stvdv]

Let’s see....as per the definition, there are.....
“three kinds of solicitation.

But then, maybe your definition is broader.

A):
When you check the Spoiler (all reply lines) below, you will see that originally we were talking about "Unsolicited....", not about "solicitation"
So as I already explained before, ChristineM used the perfect word on her sign. Not just legally but especially dharmically (righteousness)

So it's not about "definition is broader" ... it's more about "losing the right focus"

Deeje already clearly explained to me that JW just want to bring the happy news, not fight to get into the house ("dust of sandals if unwanted")
And she also explained that JW improved many things last decades and recently even more about how they (JW) interact with people.
So my guess is, that the examples in this thread are minor hick-ups while JW are in the process of getting this right (all groups need to learn)

Personally I have seen a big improvement with JW in Holland. 2 decades ago or so, they put their foot in between the door
This we don't see much anymore. It happened once to me ca. 3 years ago. Was a good lesson for me to become more assertive

As I see it, Atheist and Theist all want to be treated with respect. That is most important. When someone claims "your (non) belief is inferior" or even when he implies this, that might infuriate the other (at least that's what I see in this thread); maybe not the first time, but for sure after a few times/decades (and people share these stories more easy than positive stories). Knowing this, you really don't want this bad publicity.

B):
I read that a creative lawyer won a Law Suit for JW. So the Law won't stop you if you ignore a "No Solicitation" sign. I am not here to promote JW, but my advice would be "Just accept such a sign, even if the Law tells you that you can ignore it". Because in the end we know that only "Love" will win. Making people angry, ignoring their STOP sign is just not smart; even if the Law is behind you. Just common sense. Even in this thread I see already so much irritation coming from this. That is the opposite of what you want, I think.

I do remember that monks used to whip themselves, believing that God wanted this or it was needed, but I find that hard to believe. Personally I am more inspired by people who are happy with their belief, not who (try to) cross borders of others or themselves. Although I do have a thing with fasting, but definitely not with physical harming oneself or others.

Personally JW inspire me to not become lazy and be enthusiastic about spirituality. That is a good thing. Believing that your religion is "the best for you", is fine. Happy sharing your enthusiasm is fine, when not crossing borders/signs. Claiming that it is also the only way for others is not fine (you cross the line, because you belittle the other's (non) faith). JW also have interesting interpretation of Bible verses, I can learn from. So would it not be better to show us the positive things of JW, instead of insisting to be allowed to cross signs (because you won a Law Suit) ? Just some thoughts I had.

Spoiler: Only For HockeyCowboy

Back in the UK i had a sign on the gate, "Neighborhood Watch Area, unsolicited callers will be reported to the police"

Looking up what “soliciting” means....

I specifically used the word unsolicited
Unsolicited : not asked for; given or done voluntarily.

Again, I do not understand how that happened. It is drummed into us that we are not to call on those who request us not to. If you had a sign saying "NO Jehovah's Witnesses" you might have done better.

Anyone who has a sign out saying "no soliciting" HAS requested that JWs not solicit them to promote their religion.

This doesn’t apply. We ask for nothing.

Are you not requesting the person's attention? You should be or why else would you visit them?

Let’s see....as per the definition, there are.....
“three kinds of solicitation.

But then, maybe your definition is broader.

 

[stvdv]

Maybe the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses should be quick to revise their instruction around Matthew 10:11-14. Might it by reason be about the people who have already heard the message and have appeared to accept it? Look at the previous scripture (Matthew 10:10). Then, following that, the next one has to be about the people who will be providing for them as they travel. Those are the people who have already converted or have already accepted the brothers to help them. Matthew 10:11 Commentaries: "And whatever city or village you enter, inquire who is worthy in it, and stay at his house until you leave that city.

Interesting verses. It advises us to be careful where to go/stay. Worthy to me means that morals/values should match. And we are advised to always be nice to others, but if you are not welcome or morals don't match then better leave that place. Don't get angry at them (keep your peace).

I like the line "nor hear your words". To me that is all about respect, listening to each other, taking each other serious.

My Master said always "Never criticize faith of others, and avoid people who criticize faith of others"
Seems to me that these verses pretty much sum up what He told us. It's all about respect.

 

[stvdv]

You're not supposed to (in my opinion) "shake the dust off your feet......."

"And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet."

I have been thinking about this line a few times; interesting verse. My thought about this verse is:

It talks about a place what was not so good for you, so you might have become a bit emotionally charged, hence "shake it off" so to speak.

 

[BilliardsBall]

We actually have the same Jesus that is in the Bible....we just don't worship a three-headed God because you won't find him in the Bible....Jesus didn't teach about a trinity either. We would be more than happy to discuss that.

Do Messianic Jews believe in a trinity?

I'm a Messianic Jew--are you saying we all believe the same things? Is that your experience with other people groups?

Jesus was baptized where the Spirit descended and the voice of the Father was heard. That is one biblical trinity or tri-unity encounter we have, clearly.

 

[pearl]

All three?

The all three is from the site you posted.
This has become way off the topic of this thread, if you want to continue I suggest starting another.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Whether this is a conscious plan of any religion's leaders, or if it's just a useful aspect of doing what they think they're called to do, I don't know.

For JW’s (and maybe others), it’s this.....
Matthew 28:19-20; etc.

 

[nPeace]

Not quite sure why you needed so many posts to say the same thing but ......I have already addressed all these points.

We have made it clear that this is NOT standard behavior and that JW's do not endorse breaking the law or using subterfuge to trick people into taking literature. If any JW was caught doing this, they would be reprimanded.
It doesn't make us embarrassed but it does make us angry if our brothers do not follow through on directions. I imagine it would make God angry too. It does not accomplish anything good....and besides, the stories that appear on threads like these are uncorroborated and usually come from the haters. Nuff said IMO.

As for the whole "soliciting" thing.....I am wondering if Jesus was doing the preaching, how many would be so quick to call the police? Atheists would in a heartbeat I think....nothing new then is there? Like I said already.....we are not breaking the law because what we do does not constitute "soliciting" in the legal sense. It means that we can't be charged because we did not break any law.

Our visits may be an annoyance to some, and usually, all that is required is for the householder to state that they do not want JW's to call again. If our brothers do not respect their wishes, they bring reproach on the whole brotherhood. There are eight and a half million of us and the great majority are not ill mannered and can read and follow directions....mindful of how their conduct affects others.

I think you are right Deeje. Some persons do exaggerated a story.
To me, it indicates how strongly they may be against the ones they speak of.
Isn't it true some of our brothers formally had a strong hatred toward their newly found family members?
It really makes us smile in amusement when we hear these stories. Nothing new.

I expect too that all of our brothers may not fully understand what a particular sign means, and innocently proceed because they have no ill intention, and don't think they are doing anything wrong.
The Witnesses obviously left because common sense told them the householder was obviously upset, not pleased with their visit, didn't want to talk to them, like they were human, and did not want them there.

I would have moved to the next house, and maybe some kind, pleasant individual (sadly we at times come across the opposite) would have politely explained to me, that our work was not welcomed in X residential area. Or the police would explain it to me when they arrived.
Either way, I would be informed of what I may not have known. I would then leave the neighborhood happy and content that I understood, and could relay that to the brothers, so that all would be clearly informed.
Isn't it true the majority of police, do take time to politely explain, to someone who seems to be unaware of..., and don't they know that JWs are not trouble-makers, but are law-abiding?
So I would very likely have a good chat with the cops, and leave them a tract on, "Who really controls this world"... provided I didn't happen to get a cop who was

The fact that the brothers were in the neighborhood, seems to indicate that they were assigned by the field director, to go there.
Hence, the service overseer did not consider the neighborhood off limits.

Unless an entire neighborhood makes a petition that no JWs call, then no one or two persons can make a rule for all in the neighborhood.
They would have to be the "neighborhood lord" - meaning they owned the neighborhood properties.
With that - a sign should be clearly visible at the entrance(s) to that neighborhood for anyone to see, including me taking around my business cards from door to door.

Unless the above were true, the brothers were well within their rights to preach in the neighborhood.
Once they understand - either by being informed by the brother taking the lead, or the police - what exactly the sign means, they, as they usually do, respectfully comply.

If they do otherwise, it's normally because they don't understand.
As you rightly said Deeje, no JW sets out to cause trouble. Our brother love their neighbors, and care about their feelings.
True, one or two of us, do step out of bounds and mash a few toes from time to time, but we learn as we go along, how to erode the pride within us. It may take a while for some of us, but Jehovah knows how much effort we are making.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

For JW’s (and maybe others), it’s this.....
Matthew 28:19-20; etc.

As opposed to Matthew 23:15, which they tend to ignore.

 

[stvdv]

As opposed to Matthew 23:15, which they tend to ignore.

Thanks for the verse. A surprise, first time I read this verse. Interesting verse.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

For JW’s (and maybe others), it’s this.....
Matthew 28:19-20; etc.

I am aware that that is the stated reason. The ingrouping/outgrouping aspects of it make for a compelling rationalisation, though.

 

[Deeje]

"And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet."

I have been thinking about this line a few times; interesting verse. My thought about this verse is:

It talks about a place what was not so good for you, so you might have become a bit emotionally charged, hence "shake it off" so to speak.

It helps to know what 'shaking the dust off your feet' would mean to a first century Jew. Hospitality to strangers was the expected custom, where a householder would wash the feet of a guest in his house. Dusty roads = dirty feet. Remember that Jesus washed the feet of his apostles....an act of humility considering that he would be their future King. He wasn't too proud to do that humble task.

So failing to wash the feet of a visitor or to offer refreshments was basically anti-Jewish. This is why Jesus at first told his apostles not to take anything with them because Jewish hospitality could be relied upon to provide basic needs. Only later when hostility surfaced did Jesus tell them to take provisions.

So if a guest was refused entry and left with unwashed feet, the dust was shaken off by the visitor....but they left that doorstep in the hope of finding a friendly face and a listening ear at the next house. (Acts 20:20) They were to search out who was deserving of their message of salvation....certainly not one with an angry fist or a scolding tongue.

Thanks for the verse. A surprise, first time I read this verse. Interesting verse.

Jesus was addressing the Pharisees, whom he said would "not flee the judgment of Gehenna". Erroneously translated "hell" in many Bibles, Jesus was condemning those wicked men to eternal death (the opposite of eternal life). These are the ones whom Jesus said made converts who became subjects of the same fate, more so than themselves.

So those who twist the truth and promote hate speech based on lies are those who will join those Pharisees in their fate. That is not our judgment to make of course.....Jesus is the judge. He sets the standard of behavior. Being hospitable to strangers is a sign of a humble heart. Hostility is just the opposite. It is about respect...from both sides. There never has to be anger if the person calling is just doing their job.

A polite refusal is usually enough, so why do we keep calling? It's because people can change......I have seen it countless times. Family members are sometimes afraid of what other family members will say if they speak to JW 's at their door, so if those family members are absent for some reason, a nice conversation can ensue.....or someone who was hostile may have a pleasant encounter with a Witness elsewhere and change their mind about us.
People move away and another family may move in who like to receive our visits. You'd be surprised at how many people look forward to our chats and enjoy our publications. It gives them hope in a seemingly hopeless world.

If the only ones you listen to are the haters, then you are going to get a very twisted view of who we are and what we do.

As you said...it's about respect....on both sides.

 

[Deeje]

I'm a Messianic Jew--are you saying we all believe the same things? Is that your experience with other people groups?

I have often wondered about Messianic Jews as I do not encounter many Jewish people where I live in rural Australia. To have Jews who accept the Messiah is wonderful! But do all Jews believe and teach the same things? How does a Messianic Jew view Judaism for example? Do you see yourselves in much the same way as Jesus' first disciples would have? They saw Jesus as re-establishing the ancient Jewish faith, understanding that the religious leaders over the centuries had corrupted it. They had not corrupted scripture...only the interpretation of it.

Will a Messianic Jew identify as Christian? Do your beliefs clash with those in Christendom?

Jesus was baptized where the Spirit descended and the voice of the Father was heard. That is one biblical trinity or tri-unity encounter we have, clearly.

This is interesting to me. That Jews would accept the trinity. It is not something taught specifically but like you just highlighted, is taken from ambiguous verses that seem to imply a threesome.
That threesome is completely incompatible with the Shema (Deuteronomy 6:4) and also a breach of the First Commandment. Jesus never taught anything that was against Jewish scripture.
Putting the son in equal place with the Father, to an ancient Jew would have been blasphemy! Nowhere is the holy spirit given a name (as Jesus and Jehovah are personal names of two separate and distinct individuals) one of whom called the other "the only true God" without including himself or the holy spirit. (John 17:3) The son is said to be at the right hand of the Father, but there is not a single scripture that places the holy spirit at his left.

There is so much I don't know about Messianic Jews and how they differ from mainstream Christendom....so how do you feel about these things?