When evangelists knock on your door...

[Deeje]

The best way of getting JW's to leave your house, is by telling them, your a Catholic, then watch how fast they leave.

LOL...I have had some of my most productive discussions with Catholic people. Those who have open minds are a pleasure to talk to. Mind you, I have also had some of the most disgusting tirades from Catholic people as well.... The language! Such good "Christians"!

A couple I studied with were Catholic boarding school raised, and had some horror stories of their own to tell, both with their own experience and that of their children. But they did not blame God for the actions of the Catholic priests and nuns who abused them, physically with beatings, and verbally with threats of hell if they dared to question Catholic beliefs. Neither, (thankfully) suffered sexual abuse. So when I first encountered the wife at the door, her first response was..."I was born a Catholic, I will die a Catholic".....and I respected that. But there was something about her that was searching for answers. She began asking questions that had troubled her for decades, and was amazed at the answers she was seeing in the Bible. Little by little her Catholic 'wall' crumbled under the weight of scripture. She had no idea that the church taught very little that harmonized with the Bible. Her husband too became interested as she shared what she was learning with him. Both accepted a Bible study and after a year of careful study, they were baptized as Jehovah's Witnesses. This is what happens when you love God and his word, rather than being in love with a church and falling for their fear based teachings. If what you are taught does not harmonize with the Bible, then what is the point in believing what they teach? You have to decide that for yourself.

This was my own experience as well. The Bible is what convinced me that my church wasn't teaching the truth.

As I keep saying...a polite, "I'm not interested" is usually all that is required......but it is sometimes frustrating that people will repel us without ever knowing what we have to tell them. We don't want them to be interested in us....only in the Bible and the important message that Jesus said we had to preach before "the end" of this present system of things comes upon an unsuspecting world. (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20)

As with the people mentioned above, John 6:65 applies. 'No one comes to the son without an invitation from his Father'. The truth is only the truth if God is the one who reveals it. The trouble is, more than one 'god' is vying for the attention of humans. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) One of those 'gods' is a clever con artist. We are actually betting our lives on who it is that we choose to believe.

 

[Deeje]

Thank you for your generous reply

I know Jesus washed the feet of his apostles. Washing the feet is also an important ritual in Hinduism (named Paduka ceremony in my Ashram )
Did Jesus say this? Is this written in the Bible? Hard for me to believe that Jesus would have this feeling "not too proud to do that humble task". My Master did often similar humble tasks, and He was never too proud to do such a humble task. He always said "One should live by example. He was serving others 24/7. But if it says so in the Bible then I don't know, maybe Jesus said it that way ... I hope not though.

John 13:12-14....
"When, now, he had washed their feet and had put his outer garments on, he again reclined at the table and said to them: “Do you understand what I have done to you? 13 You address me as ‘Teacher’ and ‘Lord,’ and you are correct, for I am such. 14 Therefore, if I, the Lord and Teacher, washed your feet, you also should wash the feet of one another."

It was a lesson in humility. A King would never wash the feet of others and no one would expect him to because of his elevated position.....others served him. But Jesus was giving a practical lesson of the King serving others. These apostles were going to be "kings" themselves in the heavenly Kingdom, (Revelation 20:6) so they needed to learn that being a King is to serve....not to be served. Humble tasks are performed by humble people. The Jews as a people were proud and the Pharisees took that pride to a ridiculous level. Jesus' disciples were often arguing about who among them was the greatest.....Jesus had to knock that attitude out of them.

 

[stvdv]

John 13:12-14....
"When, now, he had washed their feet and had put his outer garments on, he again reclined at the table and said to them: “Do you understand what I have done to you? 13 You address me as ‘Teacher’ and ‘Lord,’ and you are correct, for I am such. 14 Therefore, if I, the Lord and Teacher, washed your feet, you also should wash the feet of one another."

It was a lesson in humility. A King would never wash the feet of others and no one would expect him to because of his elevated position.....others served him. But Jesus was giving a practical lesson of the King serving others. These apostles were going to be "kings" themselves in the heavenly Kingdom, (Revelation 20:6) so they needed to learn that being a King is to serve....not to be served. Humble tasks are performed by humble people. The Jews as a people were proud and the Pharisees took that pride to a ridiculous level. Jesus' disciples were often arguing about who among them was the greatest.....Jesus had to knock that attitude out of them.

Thank you. Yes, how this is written in the Bible (red) makes totally sense to me, more than how you worded it before. This is how I have learned it.

 

[Deeje]

I do not judge only because what others say. I always check out myself. I invited Jehovah Witnesses at home. They came maybe 16 times. And it was a good experience, until they started to belittle my faith. I told them first time they came, that I have a guru who is to me as Jesus is to them. And my guru advises to learn about other religions also, because if one understands the other person, then it's easier not to judge, which is very important on the spiritual path. But my guru also advises to avoid people who judge the feelings/faith of others. So I told them, if you agree to this, then I will be happy to let you in.

They really did well. We had like 12 wonderful evenings. They kept their word. Only in the end they forgot their promise. But I always look at the positive side. I think it was really good they managed 12 hours. We all make mistakes now and then. But when I explained to them, that I told them from the beginning, and that they promised not to belittle, they told me, that they believe this way. So as you will understand, that was the end of our talks.

I have only 1 criteria ... never criticize the feeling/faith of others (I make also mistakes, but will always say sorry when told so). I can understand that others follow different path, so for them it might be okay to criticize feelings/faith of others. And that is okay with me, only I will not continue conversation with them. That is my choice, my path. No hard feelings this way. Important to know from each other those things; otherwise easy to get misunderstandings or even fights or irritation.

Tell me something......if your guru told you that all those who fail to follow the path that he prescribes will end up in a state of eternal death, and he told you that, out of love, it was very important to tell everyone this message....would you do so? If religion is just a matter of personal taste, then what is the point of it? Where it leads people is the important thing surely?

You see for us, it isn't just a matter of telling people they have the wrong belief system......out of love, we sacrifice our own time and resources to bring our message to as many as possible before the "end" of the present system of things comes. (Matthew 24:14) We see ourselves in the role of emergency service workers, warning people of an impending disaster, but afterwards a wonderful future on a cleansed earth with paradise conditions restored, as it was in the beginning. But the Bible says it has to get worse before it gets better.

If you saw people following a path that would lead them to their death, could you just sit and watch them do it?
Is a "good Christian" one who sits on his porch reading his Bible whilst the people driving by his house plunge off a precipice that they don't see round a sharp corner? If you understand things from our perspective, then we are down on the road trying to warn the people.....but we can't make them listen..... When people hurl abuse, we just feel sad for them......

 

[stvdv]

Tell me something......if your guru told you that all those who fail to follow the path that he prescribes will end up in a state of eternal death, and he told you that, out of love, it was very important to tell everyone this message....would you do so?

I could accept my guru, because he told us never to evangelize. So to answer your question "NO, I would not tell others if He told me"

So, I would not evangelize, even if my guru tells me. But I believe you should evangelize, because your guru tells you to do it.

 

[stvdv]

If religion is just a matter of personal taste, then what is the point of it? Where it leads people is the important thing surely?

That is a good question I think.
I don't see religion as "personal taste"
I do see religion/spirituality as "personal quest"

 

[stvdv]

You see for us, it isn't just a matter of telling people they have the wrong belief system......out of love, we sacrifice our own time and resources to bring our message to as many as possible before the "end" of the present system of things comes. (Matthew 24:14) We see ourselves in the role of emergency service workers, warning people of an impending disaster, but afterwards a wonderful future on a cleansed earth with paradise conditions restored, as it was in the beginning. But the Bible says it has to get worse before it gets better.

That feels very good, how you describe it here. I won't stop you doing this, I would even encourage you to go for it

 

[stvdv]

Is a "good Christian" one who sits on his porch reading his Bible whilst the people driving by his house plunge off a precipice that they don't see round a sharp corner?

I think you mean this figuratively. BUT if you meant it literally then I do think it would be very wise for the Christian to put up a large NEON warning"

If you saw people following a path that would lead them to their death, could you just sit and watch them do it?
If you understand things from our perspective, then we are down on the road trying to warn the people.....but we can't make them listen..... When people hurl abuse, we just feel sad for them......

IF you put it this way, I think most people will feel touched even. They will not hurl abuse at you.

And to answer your question "No, if I saw people following a path that would lead them to their death, I would love to shout it out"
I tried that also (not really shouting my longs out, though), but I discovered that most are not interested in my view
They all have already their own view, which they like very much. And 99% will never accept my view

So I decided to tell them all they want to know, when they ask me for it

 

[stvdv]

People should not go around proselytising. If they have a faith they should keep it to themselves unless others specifically ask them what they believe and are interested to hear what they have to say.

IF you add "IMO", I will give it a winner

 

[Hockeycowboy]

LOL...I have had some of my most productive discussions with Catholic people. Those who have open minds are a pleasure to talk to. Mind you, I have also had some of the most disgusting tirades from Catholic people as well.... The language! Such good "Christians"!

A couple I studied with were Catholic boarding school raised, and had some horror stories of their own to tell, both with their own experience and that of their children. But they did not blame God for the actions of the Catholic priests and nuns who abused them, physically with beatings, and verbally with threats of hell if they dared to question Catholic beliefs. Neither, (thankfully) suffered sexual abuse. So when I first encountered the wife at the door, her first response was..."I was born a Catholic, I will die a Catholic".....and I respected that. But there was something about her that was searching for answers. She began asking questions that had troubled her for decades, and was amazed at the answers she was seeing in the Bible. Little by little her Catholic 'wall' crumbled under the weight of scripture. She had no idea that the church taught very little that harmonized with the Bible. Her husband too became interested as she shared what she was learning with him. Both accepted a Bible study and after a year of careful study, they were baptized as Jehovah's Witnesses. This is what happens when you love God and his word, rather than being in love with a church and falling for their fear based teachings. If what you are taught does not harmonize with the Bible, then what is the point in believing what they teach? You have to decide that for yourself.

This was my own experience as well. The Bible is what convinced me that my church wasn't teaching the truth.

As I keep saying...a polite, "I'm not interested" is usually all that is required......but it is sometimes frustrating that people will repel us without ever knowing what we have to tell them. We don't want them to be interested in us....only in the Bible and the important message that Jesus said we had to preach before "the end" of this present system of things comes upon an unsuspecting world. (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20)

As with the people mentioned above, John 6:65 applies. 'No one comes to the son without an invitation from his Father'. The truth is only the truth if God is the one who reveals it. The trouble is, more than one 'god' is vying for the attention of humans. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) One of those 'gods' is a clever con artist. We are actually betting our lives on who it is that we choose to believe.

What a great experience, @Deeje ! Thanks for sharing it.

Reminds me of one I had in ‘95 with a Baptist, who said he’d never change. When he learned the truth about Hell, you should have seen his eyes light up!

It wasn’t too long after that, I asked him what he thought about what he was learning, he immediately said “it’s the Truth”! Goodness, is that a great feeling!

Half a year later, he got baptized!

Now, people can just go to JW.org & wol.jw.org anytime, in the privacy of their home, and learn. Nothing beats the personal attention we give in a Bible Study, though!

 

[Hockeycowboy]

'Please put your bibles away, boys, you won't be needing them today.

'I think I ought to tell you that I'm a warlock...and every full moon we dance - naked - around the Sacred Fire...up there in Treorchy cemetery'

And - after placing a gentle hand on one JW shoulder:

'Feel free to join us....any time you like.'

Said by my father (then a Catholic in his seventies) to three eager lads who just happened to call at an inconvenient time.

A Catholic, saying “put your Bibles away”...yeah, I don’t doubt it.
Lol.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Yes. Sure as sugar.

Oh, that explains it. I wouldn’t take too much of that stuff!

 

[Niblo]

A Catholic, saying “put your Bibles away”...yeah, I don’t doubt it.
Lol.

My father was raised a Baptist (as was I). He was the first born of a Baptist Elder, a man who – in spite of being taken out of school at the age of ten, and set to work as a child collier – knew the Bible intimately; able to recite (from memory) chapter and verse, not only in English and Welsh, but in also Hebrew and Greek. He taught my father well.

My father enjoyed numerous debates with JWs over the years (much to my mother’s annoyance, as I recall). He knew their arguments at least as well as they did; and also the Bible. The difference between the JWs and my dad was that he could discern the flaws in their argument, and they could not.

 

[stvdv]

What a great experience, @Deeje ! Thanks for sharing it.

Reminds me of one I had in ‘95 with a Baptist, who said he’d never change. When he learned the truth about Hell, you should have seen his eyes light up!

It wasn’t too long after that, I asked him what he thought about what he was learning, he immediately said “it’s the Truth”! Goodness, is that a great feeling!

Half a year later, he got baptized!

Now, people can just go to JW.org & wol.jw.org anytime, in the privacy of their home, and learn. Nothing beats the personal attention we give in a Bible Study, though!

Nice story. The Baptist got baptized. At least that part did not change. I learned to be careful to say "never" the hard way. Now if I don't forget I put Deo Volente behind things. That's a good habit I learned from a Muslim (he used of course Insh'Allah). It was the first word he wanted to know how to translate. That had quite an impact on me.

 

[stvdv]

Is it a coincidence that sheep and goats sound almost the same?

Never thought about that. Simple answer for me is "no coincidence" , because I don't believe creation is a coincidence. Even scientists know that a few changes in some of the earth parameters, constants could make life on earth unlivable. To me it all seems to be meticulously created.

 

[stvdv]

The difference between the JWs and my dad was that he could discern the flaws in their argument, and they could not.

Could he discern the flaws in his own arguments? Imagine him being on RF as a Baptist debating an Atheist. I am 100% sure there will be 1 Atheist finding 1 flaw in the arguments of a Baptist.

And probably a JW could find a flaw in a Baptist argument also. And a Buddhist, and a Muslim, and a Hindu (probably even another Baptist or at least another type of Christian). After all it's a belief system. So the differences are normally seen as flaws by other believers.

 

[Niblo]

Imagine him being on RF as a Baptist debating an Atheist. I am 100% sure there will be 1 Atheist finding 1 flaw in the arguments of a Baptist. And probably a JW could find a flaw in a Baptist argument also. .....After all it's a belief system.

Perhaps not, if the discussion is about Koine Greek, and how it should be translated (taking account of grammar and context).

As I recall, the text most often presented (by the JWs) was the ‘New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures’. The flaws that I refer to were errors in translation rather than interpretation. Differences in interpretation are to be expected; and one person’s opinion is not necessarily better than another’s. Mistranslation of a text is the result of ignorance (or deliberate distortion), and is quite another matter.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

So your father was a Baptist, but later converted to Catholicism? That’s unusual. Many Baptists do know the Scriptures, more so than Catholics, I’ve discovered. (As a JW, we speak to all kinds of people, and learn what they believe, Those of us who go door-to-door w/o a partner, are quite capable of discussing and reasoning on many Scripture topics.)

The difference between the JWs and my dad was that he could discern the flaws in their argument, and they could not.

That’s interesting, because honestly, I haven’t found any. (Even the few times I couldn’t answer the householder’s scriptural question, I found it and went back.) I’ve been a Witness going on 40 years.

I will say this: what many perceive as flaws, usually turn out to be misunderstandings on their part.

Of course, some think our neutral stand regarding politics and war is a flaw. Out in service (house to house), I’ve been attacked (verbally) by many a veteran — and others — on this issue.

Take care, my cousin.

 

[Niblo]

So your father was a Baptist, but later converted to Catholicism? That’s unusual.

One of his sisters met an American GI (name of Gus) during the war. He was a Catholic. I believe my aunt became a one in order to marry Gus. My dad became a Catholic at the same time. I believe they went to catechism classes together. This was before my time. My aunt married Gus, and moved to Union City, Connecticut. They had six kids. Gus died of cancer shortly after the birth of their youngest. I've never met my American family.

I became a Catholic also....in due course....but no GIs .

Take care yourself, cousin.

 

[Jose Fly]

I recently came across an interesting psychological interpretation of public evangelizing, and it goes something like....

When you first join a religious group (prior to being sent out to evangelize), your fellow members are typically very supportive, loving, and caring, thus creating a sense of community and belonging. And to be clear, it's genuine. You are indeed a member of, and belong to, a community of like-minded people. In preparing you to go out into the world and "spread the word", they make sure you understand that the vast majority of reactions you'll get will be negative and at times, even very harsh. Some may even coach you on how to deal with such situations.

Then you're sent out, and it pretty much goes as you were told. Quite a few people are offended at what you're trying to do, others are annoyed, and some are even quite angry. Basically, most of the time you're disrespected personally and treated rather poorly. And at times the religious group's means of evangelizing is deliberately annoying (e.g., bullhorns, shouting on crowded trains, hateful rhetoric), so as to provoke angry reactions.

Then you go back to your religious community where you're greeted like a returning war hero, and again everyone is very supportive, loving, and caring. They share their similar experiences and help you talk through (and even laugh about) some of the more extreme encounters. All of this is a bonding exercise, where you eventually start feeling like the only place you're safe is among your religious community. "It's not safe out there....the only safe place is here, with us."

From a psychological standpoint, the true point of all this isn't so much about gaining converts; if it were they would utilize a more effective method (e.g., charitable works). Rather, the primary effect is to create and cement a sense of "us vs. them" and make it more likely that you'll stay in the "us" and reject the "them". It's a classic pain-reward cycle, where you become increasingly dependent on the religious community for emotional support to help deal with the pain you've suffered while evangelizing.