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When Hate is a Virtue.

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Krishna, being a Poorna Avatar (you don't get them more knowledgeable on earth I think), does not "hate the act of war", right?

Krishna is the right example in the contex, right?

Given your last reply I have to partake of more meditation upon the subject.

You may have a great point, hate could be too harsh a word yet Krishna is the Source of Love, which I see is the sum on all virtues, that all virtues culminate in the apex of Love.

Thus the total lack and rejection of that source in our life becomes the opposite of Love and that is hate.

Thus I guess it would be the principles the war was engaged upon that determine how much hate is involved in war.

Lots to think about thanks for the thoughts. I must go explore what I can find in the topic attributed to Krishna.

Maybe you know of some?

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Hate, in any form, is a toxic expression. Nothing virtuous about it.

Yes it appears it is indeed too harsh a word.

I wondered where my thoughts came from on this topic and found the passage by Abdul'baha that mentioned Anger.

Thus if I could do the OP again I would use Anger.

Interestingly I see others may have made the same blunder, but to err is human.

Can Hatred Have a Righteous Role?

I would definitely change my approach on this topic to anger and remove hate, as it is demonstrated that hate is indeed to harsh.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Opinion of Clara Tea:

The meek and gentle don't lead now, but they are said to inherit the earth (or what's left of it after pollution, war, bigotry, etc).

Hitler was human. We could say that Hitler could have been changed to a better person.

We could tell ourselves that we shouldn't hate a man who stole from 6 million Jews, starved them in torture camps (like Guantanamo in modern times), and ultimately gassed or shot them to death. Hitler attacked peaceful nations, and most feel that he had to be stopped.

It is hard to separate actions from the man. It is hard to believe that such a man could be redeemed, or that we should idly sit by as he wreaks havoc on the world hoping for the slim chance that we could somehow redeem him.

Are we just after "prevention" or do we also seek "justice?"

There were many reasons to punish Nazis:

1. Prevent another Hitler from making a torture camp in Guantanamo (apparently there wasn't sufficient incentive to stop W. Bush)

2. Prevent another Hitler from attacking peaceful nations that were not linked to terrorism (Iraq and Afghanistan).(apparently there wasn't sufficient incentive to stop war criminal W. Bush, who is now a wanted man in places like Canada, who will extradite him to the Hague for war crime trials if he ventures into their country).

3. Punish wrongdoing as a deterrent to others, so they don't do wrong in the future.

4. Do the crime, do the time

5. Try to evade war crime charges: (Nazis said they did "not see (Nazi)"). They faked their deaths and moved to South America, where their stolen loot was welcomed, where they could be kings and pay stolen mammon to make servants of the locals. Only now we see that infamous Nazis lived long and wonderful lives (people like Dr. Mengele...the maniac doctor who performed weird experiments on minorities in Nazi Germany. One such experiment was to peel the skin off of a Black man without anesthetics, to see if white skin of a corpse could be grafted on....thus making the Black man part of the "superior" race. W. Bush "tried to" evade war crime charges by getting Chapman College, Law School, professor, John Woo to redefine the word "torture" so that no torture was ever done (not by W. Bush and not by Hitler), and the new definition of torture was so stringient that no torture could ever be performed in the future by anyone. Redefining obviously is yet another way of telling a lie. Lets redefine the color white to be black, up defined to be down, left defined to be right. You can see that we can turn logic topsy turvey, so that logic no longer applies to reality by merely redefining. W. Bush also redefined "homelessness" so the statistics looked better. W. Bush also redefined "hunger." During the W. Bush administration, the health of the failing economy was measured by a new means (Gross Domestic Product), rather than the standard way of defining it by (Gross National Product). The difference is that you can't eat war or soldiers. Yet, the military was part of the Gross Domestic Product, but not part of the Gross National Product. In other words the health of the economy, under the warmonger W. Bush was measured by the amount of money that was spent on the military. Redefining terms is another way of lying.

6. Respect wishes of the victims. Victims, looking at the graves of their loved ones (if they do, indeed, know where their loved ones are buried), they seek vengeance, and want to at least see the perpetrators punished for their crimes. To allow wanton murder and destruction to go unpunished, and let people go free after they did such great harm is unconscionable.

7. Prevent loopholes in future legal actions. If we let off George Bush (the father) and Ronald Reagan for the Iran-Contra scandal, and stalled the investigation at Lieutenant Colonel Oliver North, without looking at the orders of generals, and ultimately at the Vice President and President, who had plausible deniability (by design), then future war crimes would go unpunished, as well.

8. If we ignore world opinion, and leave it to the nation to punish war criminals, then Hitler would have gone free (after all, there were crowds of cheering Germans right up to the bitter end when Hitler faked his own death and went to South America). The same is true of W. Bush, who rejected a world court (like the kind that could take care of Vladamir Putin today). A world court would have convicted W. Bush of making unfounded wars and making torture camps (like the one in Iraq, or on the ship in the Indian Ocean).

9. If we had been peaceful to Hitler, we'd now be in Nazi America....a wholly owned subsidiary of Nazi Germany. We'd be enslaved, as our kids and grandkids would be, beaten, malnourished, etc. In the mean time, the guilty would be living the life of Reilly. They'd be sipping margaritas by pools, while we'd be toiling to clean those pools, and beaten if we didn't clean them fast enough.

At some point, we must obey God and not kill or fight a war.

At a different point, we must oppose ruthless dictators to keep the world safe for the democracy that we fought so hard to win. We have a legacy to pass down to our kids.

You have brought up many good points. I would agree that Justice is a key component of Love.

It appears that Hate is too harsh a word, that Anger would have been a better substitute for the OP discussion.

I suspect the Holy Books are full of passages about God's Anger, but it was pointed out we do not find the word Hate in relation to the actions of God, as all action is based in Love.

Regards Tony
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
Lots to think about thanks for the thoughts. I must go explore what I can find in the topic attributed to Krishna.

Maybe you know of some?
Sai Baba made it pretty clear by stating something like:
"even if there is a trace of hate, there can't be Love"
"If you discover even a little hate in you, you better remove it at once"
(This advice is for Spiritual inclined people)
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
IMO, reason usually comes afterwards in an attempt to justify our feelings. Maybe occasionally reason is used in one's decision but probably not as much as we'd like to think.


Umm... I don't recall talking about hats. :D

OK, hate. I suspect we don't choose what we feel. Whatever circumstances we come across triggers an unconscious emotional response. Most of the time, we can only guess at the specific cause.

It has been pointed out Hate is too harsh and I now tend to agree that is correct.

Thinking about it more, the word Anger should have be substituted for hate in the OP.

Regards Tony
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
It's My Birthday!
No, but what can happen it is that when you apply reason connected to a certain feeling, you can end up view other feelings as "wrong", because with reason they lead to the wrong outcome.

While I agree, I question how often this actually happens.
Even with myself.
While I'd prefer to believe my thinking is "better" than average, maybe I'm just fooling myself, not totally aware of the entire picture.
So I keep skeptical that my own thought process is any better.
It has been pointed out Hate is too harsh and I now tend to agree that is correct.

Thinking about it more, the word Anger should have be substituted for hate in the OP.

Regards Tony

Yes, I generally choose when to be angry. Anger can be useful as long as you are controlling it and not it controlling you.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
There is a place for hate. Like any emotion, it can serve a purpose.

Yes it does not have to be seen as a point of no return.

I am feeling it is too harsh a word and that maybe I should have used Anger instead.

It is really Anger that I feel when I see injustice and war, but is that just mincing words?

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
I think hate, like every other feeling, has a place in our lives and can be a good tool when used properly. If you hate violence you're not likely to commit a violent act. If you hate dishonesty you won't steal, and so on. If hating bad things and loving good things is what motivates us, then we're on the right path :)

It was pointed out hate may be too harsh a word and Anger better portrays the point.

That may be so, but the intent of the OP is as you suggested, to use the emotion for the good of all.

Regards Tony
 
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TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Sai Baba made it pretty clear by stating something like:
"even if there is a trace of hate, there can't be Love"
"If you discover even a little hate in you, you better remove it at once"
(This advice is for Spiritual inclined people)

It could be Sai Baba was talking about the Apex or Purity of Love. We can consider that there are many shades of hate. Love is the apex, hate is total lack of Love.

Our journey is to remove hate and find Love.

So is that possible while hate exists? I would say yes on an individual level, but maybe not collectively at this time.

Regards Tony
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
While I agree, I question how often this actually happens.
Even with myself.
While I'd prefer to believe my thinking is "better" than average, maybe I'm just fooling myself, not totally aware of the entire picture.
So I keep skeptical that my own thought process is any better.
...

Forget better for a moment. It makes it in a limited sense more coherent. That is all. If you think that is better, then it is better. On the other end it can avoid to simple principles of good and make it more situational.
But you are right. The fundamental values are feelings that you accept because they feel right.
 
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stvdv

Veteran Member
Our journey is to remove hate and find Love.
Yes. And by removing hate and the other 5 vices, we need not even search for Love. Love patiently waits till all layers of vices have been removed, and then it's just there
(And true, when I capitalize "Love" I mean Love for God, the most pure form of Love)

So is that possible while hate exists? I would say yes on an individual level, but maybe not collectively at this time.
Definitely not possible for everyone at once (now), as it takes years of very hard sadhana, to remove anger and especially hate.

Probably we need God's Grace even, to remove deep seated hate. At least Big Pharma is still not able to provide a pill for that
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
I fully agree with what you just said, but do you see the contradiction?
If nature cannot be aligned with a perfect benevolent God how can there be a perfect benevolent God?

I do not believe that suffering of humans and in nature can be aligned with a perfect, benevolent God, but that is just my personal opinion. Other Baha'is do not agree with me.

And therein lies the problem. Abrahamic religious believers want to have their cake and eat it too. They want a perfect benevolent God who is watching over us and sometimes intervenes in this world and sometimes answers prayers, but other times stands back and watches people suffer through no fault of their own. Sorry, my mind cannot logically accommodate such a God being all-loving and omni-benevolent, as hard as I have tried to believe that.

Me too, but we are only still here because we have not committed suicide.

I believe that is generally the case although I am sure there are some exceptions.

Or you could think that an omnipotent/omniscient God could have created this world so it did not engender so much suffering. Of course that implies that God wanted suffering to exist since God created this world where it exists.

Well perhaps suffering is not to be compared to the glory that will be.

If I had not suffered one bit my whole life would I be better or worse off? That's probably the key question.

What would I be as a person had I never suffered?

The only answer I have is that God created better, and everything ended up bad. Perhaps we are caught in the war between good and evil then.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Well perhaps suffering is not to be compared to the glory that will be.
Well, as I have told you before, that is the promise of Baha'u'llah, but one has to have a lot of faith on order to endure the suffering of this world while waiting for that promise to be fulfilled.

“O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 329
If I had not suffered one bit my whole life would I be better or worse off? That's probably the key question.

What would I be as a person had I never suffered?
Only God knows. Nobody else can ever know the answer to those questions but I believe you will be better off in the end because of your suffering. Indeed, I already see a distinction of character between you and other people I know who have not suffered like you have.
The only answer I have is that God created better, and everything ended up bad. Perhaps we are caught in the war between good and evil then.
I believe that everything is as God intended it to be because God does not make mistakes.
As such, the suffering in this world was meant to be.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
I am sorry Duane, this is what keeps me from wanting to associate with other Baha'is, the pretense that suffering is always good for us and that God is doing us such a favor. No other religion teaches such a thing.

I would offer all faiths have teachings about the wisdom of Suffering.

Example is the Christain Faith and Jesus suffering on the Cross, in any case, all the Messengers have suffered and each teach the wisdom of this choice.

Each of us will experience in a different way and as such have to find our way to cope with what faces us.

I am sorry to hear Lewis is in hospital. Wish him well from me and that wish is also for you to be well.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Even if suffering has a purpose it is still suffering and we are forced to endure it. Any suffering that is not brought on by oneself is like being put in prison for a crime we did not commit, not having a choice but to endure. In my mind that does not exemplify a loving and compassionate God.

Suffering might make a person stronger or it might wear them down to a pulp, but the blame is always on the people who cannot endure, never on God.

I wonder why it is that those that suffered most, are those that bring the Message from God to humanity?

Abdul'baha always prayed that the suffering of others could be His to carry.

So in the end, it is a challenge for us indeed.

Regards Tony
 

Bree

Active Member
One can hate the act or war.

One can hate the act of tyranny.

That hate guides people to not being warlike, to not be a tyrant.

Yet the hate does not extend beyond the actions, to the person/s, as all have the capacity to change, to not embrace war or tyranny as a way of life.

A virtue based hate also allows a person to consider just actions against those that create war and tyranny, to the extent required to prevent such actions, as hate will not turn into revenge, but prevention only.

How do you see it?

Regards Tony

Hate what is bad. That is a virtue says the bible.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
I agree. That's why I hate the intolerant, war-mongering, misogynistic creed known as Islam.

I personally do not see that is healthy use of hate. It is also not a good use of humour.

It has been extended beyond the actions to taint a large selection of people that do not carry out those actions.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Hate what is bad. That is a virtue says the bible.

Yes there is verses, thanks for the reminder.

Romans 12:9 "Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good".

Proverbs 8:13 “The fear of the Lord is to hate evil; Pride and arrogance and the evil way
And the perverted mouth, I hate".

Amos 5:15 "Hate evil, love good, And establish justice in the gate! Perhaps the Lord God of hosts May be gracious to the remnant of Joseph

Source: 25 Bible verses about Hating Evil

Regards Tony
 
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