When Hate is a Virtue.

[stvdv]

Thinking about it more, the word Anger should have be substituted for hate in the OP.

When I saw your OP I wondered "why Tony writes this", I always give people first benefit of doubt, and try hard to find a way to make what they say right.

So after some contemplation I remembered that nowadays I see a trend that some people use the words Love and hate very casual as in "I hate it when it's cold", or even "worse" something like "I really LOVE this and that pop idol (as if their idol is like a God to them, even though their idol uses drugs and sleeps maybe with dozens of men or women or both for example)".

Those 2 have of course nothing to do with the true intense feeling of "hate" and yearning for "Love"(of God).

As a good example: "A woman tells that she has been raped for 10 years by a man and he beat her up daily, and still after many years she hates him intensely. And then I would reply: oh yes, I know the hate feeling. My heater broke down, and I hate it coming home and it's not cosey and warm coming home in my house".

But you also made it clear in the OP that it was about the action done, and not the person.

So, if you had that in mind, it made some sense to me.

But, because I also know that true hate is very destructive, hence we should ever be vigilant to not allow it to infest us, I decided to go for the more true meaning of the words "hate" and "Love"

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I don't wonder why they suffered so much. It is because they are so persecuted.
But who is to say that they suffer more than others?

I see that is what the Message involves, I see that is maybe why a Messenger always has a time of meditation before they deliver the Message. I will post a couple of quotes below.

I just recall passages from the Writings. I could not think of any greater suffering.

Being the source of all knowledge and good, with the path we all need to take, but being the most despised and rejected person of the time.

This is from the Tablet of Visitation used at the Holy Places, Baha'u'llah revealed this for the Bab.

"..The remembrance of God and His praise, and the glory of God and His splendor, rest upon Thee, O Thou Who art His Beauty! I bear witness that the eye of creation hath never gazed upon one wronged like Thee. Thou wast immersed all the days of Thy life beneath an ocean of tribulations. At one time Thou wast in chains and fetters; at another Thou wast threatened by the sword of Thine enemies. Yet despite all this, Thou didst enjoin upon all men to observe what had been prescribed unto Thee by Him Who is the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. May my spirit be a sacrifice to the wrongs Thou didst suffer, and my soul be a ransom for the adversities Thou didst sustain."
Bahá'u'lláh, Tablet of Visitation, in Bahá'í Prayers, pp. 228-229

"The Ancient Beauty hath consented to be bound with chains that mankind may be released from its bondage, and hath accepted to be made a prisoner within this most mighty Stronghold that the whole world may attain unto true liberty. He hath drained to its dregs the cup of sorrow, that all the peoples of the earth may attain unto abiding joy, and be filled with gladness. This is of the mercy of your Lord, the Compassionate, the Most Merciful. We have accepted to be abased, O believers in the Unity of God, that ye may be exalted, and have suffered manifold afflictions, that ye might prosper and flourish. He Who hath come to build anew the whole world, behold, how they that have joined partners with God have forced Him to dwell within the most desolate of cities". Bahá'u'lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, pp. 99-10

"Say: We have accepted to be tried by ills and troubles, that ye may sanctify yourselves from all earthly defilements. Why, then, refuse ye to ponder Our purpose in your hearts? By the righteousness of God! Whoso will reflect upon the tribulations We have suffered, his soul will assuredly melt away with sorrow. Thy Lord Himself beareth witness to the truth of My words. We have sustained the weight of all calamities to sanctify you from all earthly corruption, and ye are yet indifferent." Bahá'u'lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, p. 307

So I consider our suffering can be seen in the same light, no matter what happens, we push on in faith and virtue, knowing that our efforts to iovercome, are efforts we make for the good of all people.

I can not see any way to embrace suffering, but to see it has long term beneficial effects for all humanity.

How can I know why my wife had to suffer as she has, but to know that it has an unknown bounty in the life to come?

Of course, there is much more to consider.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes there is verses, thanks for the reminder.

Romans 12:9 "Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good".

Proverbs 8:13 “The fear of the Lord is to hate evil; Pride and arrogance and the evil way
And the perverted mouth, I hate".

Amos 5:15 "Hate evil, love good, And establish justice in the gate! Perhaps the Lord God of hosts May be gracious to the remnant of Joseph

Source: 25 Bible verses about Hating Evil

Regards Tony

So, if you had that in mind, it made some sense to me.

But, because I also know that true hate is very destructive, hence we should ever be vigilant to not allow it to infest us, I decided to go for the true meaning of the words "hate" and "Love"

I was reminded that the Bible does have such translations using hate.

That would be good to explore, for me, as it would be interesting if other translations use other words.

Hate is the extreme, so it is better if we use milder words.

Regards Tony

 

[stvdv]

Hate is the extreme, so it is better if we use milder words.

True. Especially clear to me, when my above mentioned example came to mind

As a good example: "A woman tells that she has been raped for 10 years by a man and he beat her up daily, and still after many years she hates him intensely. And then I would reply: oh yes, I know the hate feeling. My heater broke down, and I hate it coming home and it's not cosey and warm coming home in my house".

One other thing in this context

I can fake anger to make my point to someone, like a mother or father to a child, when she catches him about to do something really dangerous. Of course best to explain afterwards that mother or father is not really mad, but don't want him to ever forget again.

True hate is very hard to fake, as it is about true intense feeling inside you. You just have it or you don't; you hate your child or you don't. Similar like "you can't be a little pregnant"

I think these 2 nicely illustrate the difference between hate and anger, don't you think?

Good and interesting OP, because Love and hate should be clearly understood to be more determined than ever to go for Love and avoid developing hate and getting angered as well

 

[TransmutingSoul]

True. Especially clear to me, when my above mentioned example came to mind

One other thing in this context

I can fake anger to make my point to someone, like a mother or father to a child, when she catches him about to do something really dangerous. Of course best to explain afterwards that mother or father is not really mad, but don't want him to ever forget again.

True hate is very hard to fake, as it is about true intense feeling inside you. You just have it or you don't; you hate your child or you don't. Similar like "you can't be a little pregnant"

I think these 2 nicely illustrate the difference between hate and anger, don't you think?

Good and interesting OP, because Love and hate should be clearly understood to be more determined than ever to go for Love and avoid developing hate and getting angered as well

When I consider your example. I see that it has a couple of levels.

First is the level is that of the victim. Their challenge is to control their hate, displeasure, anger to the action, not to the person.

The second Level is where I see the OP plays out, as it is about empathy. The person at this level can offer they too hate the actions against the person they are conversing with, but also have the challenge of not making it about the person.

It is all about choice of words I suppose. I know I really do not like what is happening in a couple of places around the world with injustice and tyrannical actions against peaceful peoples. Anger, Hate? Yes, but to what degree? I guess I do not know how those emotions would play out, unless I was amongst the action so to speak.

I would fear my own drive for perfection, as when in the army back in the late 70's, I marched out of the 6 months of training as the "Most Outstanding Soldier". Thus I do wonder how peaceful I can be.

Regards Tony

 

[stvdv]

Hate is the extreme, so it is better if we use milder words.

True. Usually that is the way to go

@TransmutingSoul:
Better use the "anger" and "wrath" energy only if there is a real problem that needs the anger energy or even wrath energy to get through, to kill for example the "demon" of disrespect or deep fear inside someone for example

I have a real life personal experience with Sai Baba (a bit lengthy though), which beautifully illustrates the proper use of "anger" and "wrath" explained above, and en passant even proves Sai Baba's Power and Omniscience a little bit, as well as that visions can be real and are used by Masters and Poorna Avatars

But probably it's clear enough now. And my experience is a bit personal and I definitely do not put it up for debate. But in case you would like to read my experience let me know, then I'll share it here with you (with a note "no debate"), or in a PM

 

[74x12]

One can hate the act or war.

One can hate the act of tyranny.

That hate guides people to not being warlike, to not be a tyrant.

Yet the hate does not extend beyond the actions, to the person/s, as all have the capacity to change, to not embrace war or tyranny as a way of life.

A virtue based hate also allows a person to consider just actions against those that create war and tyranny, to the extent required to prevent such actions, as hate will not turn into revenge, but prevention only.

How do you see it?

Regards Tony

Yes, I hate tyrannry. I don't hate war itself. I think war is neutral. It's not always bad. Not always good.

You can war against things. Like evil for example.

 

[Trailblazer]

Of course, there is much more to consider.

That's true.

 

[stevecanuck]

I personally do not see that is healthy use of hate. It is also not a good use of humour.

It has been extended beyond the actions to taint a large selection of people that do not carry out those actions.

Regards Tony

That's why I said I hate Islam. Individual Muslims deserve to be judged by their actions just like everybody else.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That's why I said I hate Islam. Individual Muslims deserve to be judged by their actions just like everybody else.

I do not think the actions of a person or a group of people can define what it the fundamental Truth of Islam.

I see that hate for Islam, may prevent a just examination of what that truth is, it is not as clear cut as an act of unprovoked, unwarranted war

Regards Tony

 

[stvdv]

Hate what is bad. That is a virtue says the bible.

Are you really sure about this? I mean, I think that is quite a claim, and to attribute this to the Bible, so in a way also to Jesus and even to God. I would not claim such

Suppose the claim "hate the bad = a virtue" is false

I hope you just mean "stay the Hell away from the bad in the world", because that I get. No need to hate it though. We have already too much hate going around. Calling it a virtue is definitely a "no go".

Seems even easy to me to disprove this one for debate experts, which I am not, @Subduction Zone is much better at this. I could create a maths formula that clearly shows that "hate what is bad" does not equal "virtue"

 

[stvdv]

I wonder why it is that those that suffered most, are those that bring the Message from God to humanity?

It is said:
"to whom much is given, much will be required"

That might give a clue

Pops up another one in this context

"Be careful what you pray for...God can Grant it, you might not have anticipated the consequences, and might not be ready for it, now you got it"

I don't even ask Sai Baba to heal me, knowing the above

 

[stevecanuck]

I do not think the actions of a person or a group of people can define what it the fundamental Truth of Islam.

I see that hate for Islam, may prevent a just examination of what that truth is, it is not as clear cut as an act of unprovoked, unwarranted war

Regards Tony

Just read the Qur'an objectively. The hate and intolerance drips off nearly every page.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I believe one can conquer hate and tyranny with love. But yes it is almost impossible to keep a pure heart at all times.

Hi Seeker. How have you been? I’ve been studying at uni online so have been away for a while. I graduate on Saturday for the last course I took in counselling.

Anyway, from my reading of the Baha’i writings, hate is not an acceptable thought.

When a thought of war comes, oppose it by a stronger thought of peace. A thought of hatred must be destroyed by a more powerful thought of love." (Abdul-Baha)

As to tyrants and oppressors and the like Baha’u’llah says this…

The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice

“O Oppressors on
Earth!

Withdraw your hands
from tyranny, for I have pledged Myself not to forgive
any man’s injustice. This is My covenant which I have
irrevocably decreed in the preserved tablet and sealed with My seal of glory.

Oppressors thrive where there is no justice. Our current world system protects the tyrant. Whether Syria, Myanmar or Ukraine, as soon as the call for justice is raised at the UN, it is vetoed, rendering the world helpless even to verbally condemn injustices let alone deal with them.

Justice cannot be exercised while the world is not united because, as we have seen, some nations always take the side of the oppressors thus protecting them.

If you or I commit a serious crime, the police will be at our door, arrest us, and we shall be brought to trial. But this does not apply to governments who are free to persecute and kill millions without a hand being laid on them.

The ONLY solution is to create a system where justice includes governments and it can happen in two ways Baha’u’llah has stated. Either through an international conference of world leaders where they unite and form a universal pact where oppressors will be unitedly crushed OR through a Third World War which will force the world to unite and establish a just system

The First World War gave birth to the League of Nations, the second war - the UN, but we are still not there yet. What’s next? It’s humanity’s choice.

 

[Trailblazer]

It is said:
"to whom much is given, much will be required"

That might give a clue

That kind of says it all. Much was given to the Messengers of God, much more than was ever given to ordinary people.

 

[stevecanuck]

Hi Seeker. How have you been? I’ve been studying at uni online so have been away for a while. I graduate on Saturday for the last course I took in counselling.

Anyway, from my reading of the Baha’i writings, hate is not an acceptable thought.

When a thought of war comes, oppose it by a stronger thought of peace. A thought of hatred must be destroyed by a more powerful thought of love." (Abdul-Baha)

As to tyrants and oppressors and the like Baha’u’llah says this…

The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice

“O Oppressors on
Earth!

Withdraw your hands
from tyranny, for I have pledged Myself not to forgive
any man’s injustice. This is My covenant which I have
irrevocably decreed in the preserved tablet and sealed with My seal of glory.

Oppressors thrive where there is no justice. Our current world system protects the tyrant. Whether Syria, Myanmar or Ukraine, as soon as the call for justice is raised at the UN, it is vetoed, rendering the world helpless even to verbally condemn injustices let alone deal with them.

Justice cannot be exercised while the world is not united because, as we have seen, some nations always take the side of the oppressors thus protecting them.

If you or I commit a serious crime, the police will be at our door, arrest us, and we shall be brought to trial. But this does not apply to governments who are free to persecute and kill millions without a hand being laid on them.

The ONLY solution is to create a system where justice includes governments and it can happen in two ways Baha’u’llah has stated. Either through an international conference of world leaders where they unite and form a universal pact where oppressors will be unitedly crushed OR through a Third World War which will force the world to unite and establish a just system

The First World War gave birth to the League of Nations, the second war - the UN, but we are still not there yet. What’s next? It’s humanity’s choice.

But, is it really all of humanity's choice? The war in Ukraine is literally one man's choice. One....man.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Hi Seeker. How have you been? I’ve been studying at uni online so have been away for a while. I graduate on Saturday for the last course I took in counselling.

Anyway, from my reading of the Baha’i writings, hate is not an acceptable thought.

When a thought of war comes, oppose it by a stronger thought of peace. A thought of hatred must be destroyed by a more powerful thought of love." (Abdul-Baha)

As to tyrants and oppressors and the like Baha’u’llah says this…

The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice

“O Oppressors on
Earth!

Withdraw your hands
from tyranny, for I have pledged Myself not to forgive
any man’s injustice. This is My covenant which I have
irrevocably decreed in the preserved tablet and sealed with My seal of glory.

Oppressors thrive where there is no justice. Our current world system protects the tyrant. Whether Syria, Myanmar or Ukraine, as soon as the call for justice is raised at the UN, it is vetoed, rendering the world helpless even to verbally condemn injustices let alone deal with them.

Justice cannot be exercised while the world is not united because, as we have seen, some nations always take the side of the oppressors thus protecting them.

If you or I commit a serious crime, the police will be at our door, arrest us, and we shall be brought to trial. But this does not apply to governments who are free to persecute and kill millions without a hand being laid on them.

The ONLY solution is to create a system where justice includes governments and it can happen in two ways Baha’u’llah has stated. Either through an international conference of world leaders where they unite and form a universal pact where oppressors will be unitedly crushed OR through a Third World War which will force the world to unite and establish a just system

The First World War gave birth to the League of Nations, the second war - the UN, but we are still not there yet. What’s next? It’s humanity’s choice.

Hi @loverofhumanity
I am doing very well now a lot is changing to the better for me
As you say, love should be the main focus always but to be honest, it is not easy, especially in the times we are in now. So showing love and compassion to those around us become the main way to show we care. And if needed we help people like the Ukraines now.

We can disagree with Putin and his war, but we dont have to become evil our selves and show hate toward Russians, many Rusdians suffer a lot these days too.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Just read the Qur'an objectively. The hate and intolerance drips off nearly every page.

I read objectively, as precious study has shown me that God is Love.

I see the Quran reflects the rejection of that Love, which has another whole story behind it.

Thus I see the context of the Quran is that God is Love, God gave us the Laws required to live in peace and harmony with each other and the Quran records the unfolding of the future, as to how we would react to that Message, it also records the waywardness of Islam. The Bible before the Quran also records that Story.

Regards Tony

 

[stevecanuck]

I read objectively, as precious study has shown me that God is Love.

You live in some sort of alternate universe. On this planet, the Qur'an says, "Allah does not love unbelievers (3:14)" and "Allah is the enemy of unbelievers (2:98)".

There is simply no way that a god of love would not forgive those who can't bring themselves to believe he exists. No way whatsoever. The god of Islam is a jealous narcissist who burns in perpetuity those who do not fall on their foreheads 5 times a day for him. That's not love - it's extortion.

I see the Quran reflects the rejection of that Love, which has another whole story behind it.

Again, it's not love that unbelievers reject, it's his yoke.

Thus I see the context of the Quran is that God is Love, God gave us the Laws required to live in peace and harmony with each other

9:111 - "Indeed, Allah has purchased from the believers their lives and their properties [in exchange] for that they will have Paradise. They fight in the cause of Allah , so they kill and are killed".

Your position is mind-bending. Peace tell me what part of that defines "peace and harmony".

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You live in some sort of alternate universe. On this planet, the Qur'an says, "Allah does not love unbelievers (3:14)" and "Allah is the enemy of unbelievers (2:98)".

There is simply no way that a god of love would not forgive those who can't bring themselves to believe he exists. No way whatsoever. The god of Islam is a jealous narcissist who burns in perpetuity those who do not fall on their foreheads 5 times a day for him. That's not love - it's extortion.

This is a good example of why I see this differently as my search found out this from God.

O SON OF BEING! Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant.

(The Hidden Words, Arabic no. 5)

So I see the Quran passages in that light. Our own actions as unbelievers deprives us from that Love and we become the enemy against the Army of Light/Love.

We make God our enemy.

Regards Tony