When "Inerrant" Really Means "Full Of Errors"

[Colt]

You're absolutely right, cOLTER. That's why I started the thread "If God Really wanted us to believe Jesus was His divine son come to die for our sins wouldn't He have made sure that massive amounts of Secular evidence were left behind?" It's a reasonable question. God either wants us to believe Jesus is divine or He doesn't. This idea of believing by faith rather than evidence that Christianity has devised is simply a feeble to keep rational people form asking a pretty basic question and I think in today's culture it fails. More and more young people are saying, "Show me the evidence and I'll believe." The church leaders have nothing to produce to prove Jesus was real, sadly. So the Nones, as they are called, say "Well, then I'm not interested in Jesus" and move on to other religions that don't have all the stringent dogma Christianity has. God the Father has essentially shot Himself in the foot by not leaving behind enough secular evidence for Jesus to fill a thimble. Either that, or as I have been saying, He's a deist God who simply doesn't give a damn whether or not we believe in Jesus, which would pretty much disinherit Jesus from any divine role. Being a deist, God doesn't involve Himself in any world affairs nor does He seem to care what happens to us as evidenced by all the pain and suffering even the most vulnerable children suffer horribly from.

There was a lot of so called “evidence” when he was on the earth and people feared and hated him. They were so stupid that they criticized Jesus for healing people on the sabbath. They said that technically that was work. They accused Jesus of getting his power from Satan.

His followers put a lot of effort into writing down what they could remember.

 

[Trailblazer]

Because Baha'u'llah was just 100 years ago, the Son of God incarnate 2000 years ago in a nation that largely rejected him, killed him and had no desire to preserve his memory.

The nation to which Baha'u'llah came, which was Muslims, largely rejected him, tried to kill him and had no desire to preserve his memory. It was the Baha'is who preserved His memory by chronicling His life on earth.

 

[Trailblazer]

There was a lot of so called “evidence” when he was on the earth and people feared and hated him. They were so stupid that they criticized Jesus for healing people on the sabbath.

Yes, those Jews were very foolish and ignorant. That just reminded me of what Baha'u'llah wrote about Jesus healing the sick and having the power to forgive sins..

“It is also recorded in the Gospel according to St. Luke, that on a certain day Jesus passed by a Jew who was sick of the palsy, and lay upon a couch. When the Jew saw Him, he recognized Him, and cried out for His help. Jesus said unto him: “Arise from thy bed; thy sins are forgiven thee.” Certain of the Jews, standing by, protested saying: “Who can forgive sins, but God alone?” And immediately He perceived their thoughts, Jesus answering said unto them: “Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, arise, and take up thy bed, and walk; or to say, thy sins are forgiven thee? that ye may know that the Son of Man hath power on earth to forgive sins.” 7 This is the real sovereignty, and such is the power of God’s chosen Ones! All these things which We have repeatedly mentioned, and the details which We have cited from divers sources, have no other purpose but to enable thee to grasp the meaning of the allusions in the utterances of the chosen Ones of God, lest certain of these utterances cause thy feet to falter and thy heart to be dismayed.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 133-134

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

There was a lot of so called “evidence” when he was on the earth and people feared and hated him. They were so stupid that they criticized Jesus for healing people on the sabbath. They said that technically that was work. They accused Jesus of getting his power from Satan.

His followers put a lot of effort into righting down what they could remember.

Yes, but it still begs the question,"Why didn't God, who is omnipotent step in and make sure all this evidence that existed back then was preserved for all time so the entire world could believe in Jesus as the Christians say He wants them to?"

 

[Trailblazer]

You sourced the Gospels in your argument but now say they are unreliable? So you discredited your own rebuttal.

Trailblazer said: The Gospels cannot be used as evidence for the Gospels because they have not been corroborated by any sources outside the Gospels. I mean anyone can write a story, but that story is no proof that anything in that story ever took place. That applies in particular to the stories of the bodily resurrection.

I was referring to the Gospels as evidence of who wrote the Gospels, as that was the context of the conversation you were having with another poster. Unreliable is a relative term and all Baha'is are free to have their own opinions as to the reliability of the Bible. Below is the beginning and ending of an essay that addressed the Baha'i viewpoint.

Introduction

Although Bahá'ís universally share a great respect for the Bible, and acknowledge its status as sacred literature, their individual views about its authoritative status range along the full spectrum of possibilities. At one end there are those who assume the uncritical evangelical or fundamentalist-Christian view that the Bible is wholly and indisputably the word of God. At the other end are Bahá'ís attracted to the liberal, scholarly conclusion that the Bible is no more than a product of complex historical and human forces. Between these extremes is the possibility that the Bible contains the Word of God, but only in a particular sense of the phrase 'Word of God' or in particular texts. I hope to show that a Bahá'í view must lie in this middle area, and can be defined to some degree.

Conclusion

The Bahá'í viewpoint proposed by this essay has been established as follows: The Bible is a reliable source of Divine guidance and salvation, and rightly regarded as a sacred and holy book. However, as a collection of the writings of independent and human authors, it is not necessarily historically accurate. Nor can the words of its writers, although inspired, be strictly defined as 'The Word of God' in the way the original words of Moses and Jesus could have been. Instead there is an area of continuing interest for Bahá'í scholars, possibly involving the creation of new categories for defining authoritative religious literature.

A Baháí View of the Bible
(Rosebery, Australia: Association for Baha'i Studies Australia, 1996)

Below are some authoritative statements from the Guardian of the Bahai Faith, Shoghi Efendi which are letters that were written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice (UHJ).

In studying the Bible Bahá'ís must bear two principles in mind. The first is that many passages in Sacred Scriptures are intended to be taken metaphorically, not literally, and some of the paradoxes and apparent contradictions which appear are intended to indicate this. The second is the fact that the text of the early Scriptures, such as the Bible, is not wholly authentic.
(28 May 1984 to an individual believer)

The Bahá'ís believe what is in the Bible to be true in substance. This does not mean that every word recorded in that Book is to be taken literally and treated as the authentic saying of a Prophet....

The Bahá'ís believe that God's Revelation is under His care and protection and that the essence, or essential elements, of what His Manifestations intended to convey has been recorded and preserved in Their Holy Books. However, as the sayings of the ancient Prophets were written down some time later, we cannot categorically state, as we do in the case of the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, that the words and phrases attributed to Them are Their exact words
(9 August 1984 to an individual believer)

The Bible: Extracts on the Old and New Testaments
(From letters written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice)

 

[Trailblazer]

You're absolutely right, cOLTER. That's why I started the thread "If God Really wanted us to believe Jesus was His divine son come to die for our sins wouldn't He have made sure that massive amounts of Secular evidence were left behind?" It's a reasonable question. God either wants us to believe Jesus is divine or He doesn't

I believe that God wants us to believe in Jesus because I believe that Jesus was a Manifestation of God.
I believe that the All-knowing God knew exactly what would happen from beginning to end because the essential knowledge of God surrounds the realities of all things before, during and after they ever transpire in this material world.

As such, I believe that God knew that in the beginning only a few people would believe in Jesus and God also knew that Christianity would grow faster later, and that within 350 years of Christ crucifixion Christianity would become the state sponsored religion of the largest empire on earth. God also knew that Christianity would grow and grow and it would encircle the globe by the mid-1800s.

This idea of believing by faith rather than evidence that Christianity has devised is simply a feeble attempt to keep rational people from asking a pretty basic question and I think in today's culture it fails. More and more young people are saying, "Show me the evidence and I'll believe." The church leaders have nothing to produce to prove Jesus was real, sadly. So the Nones, as they are called, say "Well, then I'm not interested in Jesus" and move on to other religions that don't have all the stringent dogma Christianity has.

And if course the All-Knowing God knew that this would happen in this 'new age' when people became more discriminating about what they were willing to believe.

God the Father has essentially shot Himself in the foot by not leaving behind enough secular evidence for Jesus to fill a thimble. Either that, or as I have been saying, He's a deist God who simply doesn't give a damn whether or not we believe in Jesus, which would pretty much disinherit Jesus from any divine role.

The All-Knowing God, God knew that He would be sending Baha'u'llah to validate the existence of Jesus by the time people started questioning Christianity, and that is exactly what happened; so now if people really want to believe in Jesus they can refer to the Baha'i Writings, although of course they would have to believe that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God in His own right in order to believe what He wrote about Jesus.

Based upon what Baha'u'llah wrote, I believe this was God's intention for this age, that we turn towards Him. Since the following passage was written to apply to the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah and the present age, "His Manifestation" refers to Baha'u'llah.

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth. Their falsity hath, in some cases, been exposed when the intervening veils were rent asunder. They themselves have acknowledged their failure in apprehending the meaning of any of the words of God.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 171-172

Of course God knew that as a result of people turning to Baha'u'llah, Jesus would also be validated for those who had lost faith in Jesus or never had it. Not only that, but Christians would be able to retain their faith in Jesus while leaving the doctrines of the Church behind, knowing from the Baha'i Writings that these doctrines were based upon misinterpretations of the Bible and encrustations that grew up within the Church over time, as noted in the passage above.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, but it still begs the question,"Why didn't God, who is omnipotent step in and make sure all this evidence that existed back then was preserved for all time so the entire world could believe in Jesus as the Christians say He wants them to?"

Baha'u'llah explained why God did not make sure. In short, because God tests His servants. I realize the passage below is kind of advanced, so feel free to ask any questions you might have about the meaning. Actually it was sent to me via e-mail from my best friend Duane who is a Baha'i and always tries to help me with my tests from God. Duane knows the Baha'i Writings better than I do. I am good at filing them away and finding them when I need them because I have an eidetic memory.

“And now, consider and reflect a moment upon the waywardness of this people. What could have been the reason for such denial and avoidance on their part? What could have induced them to refuse to put off the garment of denial, and to adorn themselves with the robe of acceptance? Moreover, what could have caused the nonfulfilment of the divine promise which led the seekers to reject that which they had accepted? Meditate profoundly, that the secret of things unseen may be revealed unto you, that you may inhale the sweetness of a spiritual and imperishable fragrance, and that you may acknowledge the truth that from time immemorial even unto eternity the Almighty hath tried, and will continue to try, His servants, so that light may be distinguished from darkness, truth from falsehood, right from wrong, guidance from error, happiness from misery, and roses from thorns. Even as He hath revealed: “Do men think when they say ‘We believe’ they shall be let alone and not be put to proof?” 5"

The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 8-9

 

[rational experiences]

Humanity says in a life review we have been bullied enough as a human in a historic life inequality. Implemented and owns a moral human justice system. Taught as human spirituality

Owning no argument. It is the basis of human rights reviewed to have been removed by group behaviour previous and social conditions. Previous.

How spiritual human groups change status in a social system.

We own an argument.

Human science theoried by thinking says I claim creation and self presence historic evolution from a big bang. Claiming yet the previous higher form that changed is unknown.

Research says the nature is so intricately balanced it had to have been intelligence.

Spiritual humans said that higher status was uncondition love. eternal.

Owned no description or condition as it cannot be explained. Non condition itself explained.

The alternate answer I knew as I am conscious.

Spirit advice involves phenomena. Assessment. Teaching. Conscious aware status. Of spirit.

As that argument.

Creation is. It exists. Existed owning all forms before a human.

Science thesis was about I know also. But proven for machine design and reactive destruction.

Spiritually the anti or alter condition.

The argument.

Creation was self consuming until evolution stopped destruction. Evolution. Natural space present. Self consuming body opened greater space body.

How evolution began.

History our argument.

Eternal never changed remained what it had always been.

Versus what changed.

Destroyer history what changed that opened into space. Not ours.

Presence claimed by a human.....all ours.

Non presence that always was eternal we no longer own. We are just aware of it. But it always had been. Intelligence in balance. Not space as it owns multi variables.

A teaching advice.

Owning presence is just self.
Presence owning presence everything a self other than or elsewhere from our self. Self presence is everything yet we are just one of any self presence.

Argument was and did creation come from intelligence.

Eternal a whole form did not own creation or space. Living beings not described lived communing in perfect balance living within the eternal body.

Perfectly mutual and balanced.

Lost a portion into creation. Cooled evolved showing mutual balances.

What was realised by change in a human life by what they understood and how it was explained. Ability to think.

Mutual scientific awareness. One form advice to destroy. Occult nuclear. The other just observations in living self presence.

Spirit by its owned conditions taught us all.

 

[Colt]

Jesus saw the future of the anti-Christ spirit in the world.

Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

They sought to discredit Jesus when he was with us on earth and undermine his ministry. Now that he's not here he can only rely on his fallible believers to defend him with the records that survived.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Baha'u'llah explained why God did not make sure. In short, because God tests His servants. I realize the passage below is kind of advanced, so feel free to ask any questions you might have about the meaning. Actually it was sent to me via e-mail from my best friend Duane who is a Baha'i and always tries to help me with my tests from God. Duane knows the Baha'i Writings better than I do. I am good at filing them away and finding them when I need them because I have an eidetic memory.

“And now, consider and reflect a moment upon the waywardness of this people. What could have been the reason for such denial and avoidance on their part? What could have induced them to refuse to put off the garment of denial, and to adorn themselves with the robe of acceptance? Moreover, what could have caused the nonfulfilment of the divine promise which led the seekers to reject that which they had accepted? Meditate profoundly, that the secret of things unseen may be revealed unto you, that you may inhale the sweetness of a spiritual and imperishable fragrance, and that you may acknowledge the truth that from time immemorial even unto eternity the Almighty hath tried, and will continue to try, His servants, so that light may be distinguished from darkness, truth from falsehood, right from wrong, guidance from error, happiness from misery, and roses from thorns. Even as He hath revealed: “Do men think when they say ‘We believe’ they shall be let alone and not be put to proof?” 5"
The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 8-9

I personally think that any God worth His salt, if He wanted so strongly for people to believe in Him or at least that Jesus was His divine son, He would have left massive amounts of evidence to support what people clearly cannot see. In courts we don't ask juries to take the word of a prosecution attorney that the accused is guilty, we demand evidence to support that charge. It's just endemic to our natures to want to see proof for something. This business of the just shall walk by faith, IMHO is just a trick the church manufactured because people wanted proof of Jesus and they didn't have any to offer.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

I believe that God wants us to believe in Jesus because I believe that Jesus was a Manifestation of God.
I believe that the All-knowing God knew exactly what would happen from beginning to end because the essential knowledge of God surrounds the realities of all things before, during and after they ever transpire in this material world.

As such, I believe that God knew that in the beginning only a few people would believe in Jesus and God also knew that Christianity would grow faster later, and that within 350 years of Christ crucifixion Christianity would become the state sponsored religion of the largest empire on earth. God also knew that Christianity would grow and grow and it would encircle the globe by the mid-1800s.

And if course the All-Knowing God knew that this would happen in this 'new age' when people became more discriminating about what they were willing to believe.

The All-Knowing God, God knew that He would be sending Baha'u'llah to validate the existence of Jesus by the time people started questioning Christianity, and that is exactly what happened; so now if people really want to believe in Jesus they can refer to the Baha'i Writings, although of course they would have to believe that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God in His own right in order to believe what He wrote about Jesus.

Based upon what Baha'u'llah wrote, I believe this was God's intention for this age, that we turn towards Him. Since the following passage was written to apply to the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah and the present age, "His Manifestation" refers to Baha'u'llah.

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth. Their falsity hath, in some cases, been exposed when the intervening veils were rent asunder. They themselves have acknowledged their failure in apprehending the meaning of any of the words of God.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 171-172

Of course God knew that as a result of people turning to Baha'u'llah, Jesus would also be validated for those who had lost faith in Jesus or never had it. Not only that, but Christians would be able to retain their faith in Jesus while leaving the doctrines of the Church behind, knowing from the Baha'i Writings that these doctrines were based upon misinterpretations of the Bible and encrustations that grew up within the Church over time, as noted in the passage above.

Not many people know that the SOLE reason Christianity survives is because of a single man, Emperor Constantine in 325 at the Council of Nicaea. He had four gods to choose from to make that god his official god of his Roman empire. He thought that Christianity was the best choice because it taught peace and he wanted peace in his empire. For the sake of expediency he combined two pagan gods, Druid god, Hesus and Indian god, Krishna. You can see that the two names combined form Hesus (Jesus) Krist (Krist-Christ). It was a purely political decision that Constantine chose Christianity. I don't think God had anything to do with it.

 

[Colt]

I personally think that any God worth His salt, if He wanted so strongly for people to believe in Him or at least that Jesus was His divine son, He would have left massive amounts of evidence to support what people clearly cannot see. In courts we don't ask juries to take the word of a prosecution attorney that the accused is guilty, we demand evidence to support that charge. It's just endemic to our natures to want to see proof for something. This business of the just shall walk by faith, IMHO is just a trick the church manufactured because people wanted proof of Jesus and they didn't have any to offer.

That's what you think, its how you think, but its not Gods way of raising children. It is by design that we are supposed to be searching for spiritual truth through the experience of living in the unknown.

 

[halbhh]

Yes, I have my own bias. but it is far less than that of anyone that tries to defend the failed prophecies of the Bible. And no, your so called "corrections" have been only lame attempts at apologetics.

Why bother to ever pretend you are conversing with me? It won't fool anyone at all.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

That's what you think, its how you think, but its not Gods way of raising children. It is by design that we are supposed to be searching for spiritual truth through the experience of living in the unknown.

Maybe. I don't pretend to know the mind of God. I only know what I'm seeing:

In 2019, 65% of American adults describe themselves as Christians, down 12 percentage points over the past decade.

People who [are] atheist, agnostic or “nothing in particular,” now stands at 26%, up from 17% in 2009.

In U.S., Decline of Christianity Continues at Rapid Pace

'Difficult days are ahead' for America's churches, faith institutions

Churches are closing in unprecedented number, not just because of COVID but because of no attendance in general on top of COVID. This is God's work. If His intent is to stop people believing in Jesus He's doing a splendid job as revealed by the statistics in the articles above. He could turn all this around because He's omnipotent, but He chooses to allow Christianity to continue to crumble. I've heard Christians make apologetics excuses for this--"God is just pruning the dead branches and throwing them into the fire" etc but it's a feeble explanation for 1/3 of the world turning away from Jesus in 1st world countries where education is top-notch. But in poor countries like Africa and South Asia, sure Christianity is growing where education is poor to non-existent. Simple pliable minds make for excellent sponges for any kind of propaganda, religious or political.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Why bother to ever pretend you are conversing with me? It won't fool anyone at all.

I don't know. Perhaps if you did not ignore corrections I would pay more attention. But any time a Christian refers to a apologetics site I take it as an admission of defeat. I have not seen one that is honest.

 

[halbhh]

I don't know. Perhaps if you did not ignore corrections I would pay more attention. But any time a Christian refers to a apologetics site I take it as an admission of defeat. I have not seen one that is honest.

The reason you can't 'correct' me about the content of the common bible is because I'm objectively quite a capable reader (at least by tests would be in the top 1%) and have read through the books in the common bible about 3 times each now, and it's not like I skimmed through without reading for comprehension. (and have also read very extensively in a variety of commentaries and analysis also on most of those books) It's like....as if you tried to correct one of the top 2 or 3 math students at a university who was acing the tests. You might imagine you were correcting him, but all along you would have been better off listening to him. That's an explanation for a non-believer why you would be better off trying to listen to what I say about that text.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The reason you can't 'correct' me about the content of the common bible is because I'm objectively quite a capable reader (at least by tests would be in the top 1%) and have read through the books in the common bible about 3 times each now, and it's not like I skimmed through without reading for comprehension. (and have also read very extensively in a variety of commentaries and analysis also on most of those books) It's like....as if you tried to correct one of the top 2 or 3 math students at a university who was acing the tests. You might imagine you were correcting him, but all along you would have been better off listening to him. That's an explanation for a non-believer why you would be better off trying to listen to what I say about that text.

I am sorry, but your bias is more than obvious at times. That you cannot see it renders your other claims rather baseless.

 

[Colt]

Maybe. I don't pretend to know the mind of God. I only know what I'm seeing:

In 2019, 65% of American adults describe themselves as Christians, down 12 percentage points over the past decade.

People who [are] atheist, agnostic or “nothing in particular,” now stands at 26%, up from 17% in 2009.

In U.S., Decline of Christianity Continues at Rapid Pace

'Difficult days are ahead' for America's churches, faith institutions

Churches are closing in unprecedented number, not just because of COVID but because of no attendance in general on top of COVID. This is God's work. If His intent is to stop people believing in Jesus He's doing a splendid job as revealed by the statistics in the articles above. He could turn all this around because He's omnipotent, but He chooses to allow Christianity to continue to crumble. I've heard Christians make apologetics excuses for this--"God is just pruning the dead branches and throwing them into the fire" etc but it's a feeble explanation for 1/3 of the world turning away from Jesus in 1st world countries where education is top-notch. But in poor countries like Africa and South Asia, sure Christianity is growing where education is poor to non-existent. Simple pliable minds make for excellent sponges for any kind of propaganda, religious or political.

The secular revolt against God and religion will be short lived. When the world hits bottom again and has an attitude change God will be waiting to lead people again.

 

[halbhh]

I am sorry, but your bias is more than obvious at times. That you cannot see it renders your other claims rather baseless.

That's your assumption. Be skeptical about it.

 

[Subduction Zone]

That's your assumption. Be skeptical about it.

I am. You keep confirming it.