When "Inerrant" Really Means "Full Of Errors"

[Trailblazer]

Sorry to butt in, cOLTER but the truth is we wouldn't know. We have the gospels and nothing else to corroborate them. We know they were written at least 50 years after the crucifixion and there were no eyewitnesses to give testimony and no written records for the writers to draw from that survive today. We have to take the Bible's word as "gospel" even though the facts call the writing into question. But taking them on faith is perfectly fine. It's just that a lot of us can't do that.

Sorry to butt in, but don't you think some of the gospels are more likely to represent the historical Jesus than other gospels, as noted in this book?

"That the figure of the Nazarene, as delivered to us in Mark’s Gospel, is decisively different from the pre-existent risen Christ proclaimed by Paul, is something long recognized by thinkers like Kant, Fichte, Schelling, Herder and Goethe, to mention only a few. The distinction between ‘the religion of Christ’ and ‘the Christian religion’ goes back to Lessing. Critical theological research has now disputed the idea of an uninterrupted chain of historical succession: Luther’s belief that at all times a small handful of true Christians preserved the true apostolic faith. Walter Bauer (226) and Martin Werner (227) have brought evidence that there was conflict from the outset about the central questions of dogma. It has become clear that the beliefs of those who had seen and heard Jesus in the flesh --- the disciples and the original community--- were at odds to an extraordinary degree with the teaching of Paul, who claimed to have been not only called by a vision but instructed by the heavenly Christ. The conflict at Antioch between the apostles Peter and Paul, far more embittered as research has shown (228) than the Bible allows us to see, was the most fateful split in Christianity, which in the Acts of the Apostles was ‘theologically camouflaged’. (229)

Paul, who had never seen Jesus, showed great reserve towards the Palestinian traditions regarding Jesus’ life. (230) The historical Jesus and his earthly life are without significance for Paul. In all his epistles the name ‘Jesus’ occurs only 15 times, the title ‘Christ’ 378 times. In Jesus’s actual teaching he shows extraordinarily little interest. It is disputed whether in all his epistles he makes two, three or four references to sayings by Jesus. (231) It is not Jesus’ teaching, which he cannot himself have heard at all (short of hearing it in a vision), that is central to his own mission, but the person of the Redeemer and His death on the Cross."

How Paul changed the course of Christianity

 

[rational experiences]

A medical scientist healer said science never existed. O pi or Phi by alien images and Phi Measures on ground by gas irradiating fall out only.

Equals mass UFO radiation coming into our water oxygen heavens after passing through upper cold gases having changed pressure.

Pressure change only patterns as Phi does not exist.

D O G the teaching involving explanations left basic messages. About pyramid science history.

Once our galaxy was up in Sirius Orion region. With same galaxy union. Numbers of present planets.

We were by science pyramid contortion planet shift sucked down into vacuum. Dragged away from union lots of planets destroyed.

Mass energy owns hot radiation origin left black holes. O mass first cold body is converted in blasting.

Hole science thesis is linked to sink hole. Earth God.

Sink hole circular as sun X mass blasted not any circle burnt gas mass X God held planet pressure. O God mass was the pressure against the circle. Fell out in circular motion by DOG explanation. Rotating heat cooling.

O God the circle earth.

No other circle existed.

Some scientists inferred O a circle as a radiating O hole.

Mass radiating never a circle as mass held the circle body. Mass gone a hole.

A hole is not a circle it is pressurized mass removed and mass remains as the circle. A hole circular only due to pressure.

Hole theory is fake.

D O G advice.

Sirius loss from dog star.
Pluto a dog....mass body removed.

Only dog is a real dog. Dog given to an animal beast name to basic confer a basic message.

Involving Sirius.
Pyramid cause.
Beast explanation as alienation.

As animals were harmed also.

In the knowledge an irradiated brain becomes basic human owning no science memories. Intelligence awareness lost.

Ask what alien skeletal bodies of Moses caused to some man life? Constant in pressure changes enlarged elongated the skull. Animal forms changed into human like creatures in ape monkey types of bodies also.

Why KRA ARK baboon thesis said beast changed its form also in its pressure alienation of its genesis.

Any tradition ie to bind skull came from imaged pre formed advice to copy.

Father said flooded earth with UFO vision of removed mass was pyramid theory. Mass tip mountain to its flat top.

I saw vision no mountain top above water earth in a total flood. SAID to myself had to have been Atlantis event.

Origin sun attack left sink holes not Phi. A hole was sun radiation.

Phi pressure occurs by heavenly mass pressure as it changes owning small water mass on ground. Caused by science machine thesis. Pyramid.

Reason....mass by sun nuclear already a hole.

Mass removed a second time was mountain top as first science thesis.

Origin nuclear was a hole.

Science wrong realised first cause when he burnt life to death as a he will HE'LL thesis of man he and by i will by EL God power.

Healer said all life became a JEW as God jewel crystalline mass and pressure had been converted and humans X mass event were sacrificed.

Moses thesis said only due to UFO Ark landing on mountain top was life proven saved. Law of mountain top did not convert. Reason we survived

A human teaching.

 

[Colt]

Sorry to butt in, cOLTER but the truth is we wouldn't know. We have the gospels and nothing else to corroborate them. We know they were written at least 50 years after the crucifixion and there were no eyewitnesses to give testimony and no written records for the writers to draw from that survive today. We have to take the Bible's word as "gospel" even though the facts call the writing into question. But taking them on faith is perfectly fine. It's just that a lot of us can't do that.

No, we don’t “know” that his followers waited “50 years” to write any notes, quotes or books. That defies common sense concerning any religious figure in the age of writings. We don’t “know” that at all. We do know that we have copies of copies of copies of writings handed down to the oldest known fragments and manuscripts in existence.

For spirit born disciples we know that the son of God is present here now. We know that before and after Jesus there have been a number of false Messiah claimants. I think Baháʼu'lláh is one of the false Messiahs with a cult following.

God the Father is within and quite accessible.

 

[Subduction Zone]

No, we don’t “know” that his followers waited “50 years” to write any notes, quotes or books. That defies common sense concerning any religious figure in the age of writings. We don’t “know” that at all. We do know that we have copies of copies of copies of writings handed down to the oldest known fragments and manuscripts in existence.

For spirit born disciples we know that the son of God is present here now. We know that before and after Jesus there have been a number of false Messiah claimants. I think Baháʼu'lláh is one of the false Messiahs with a cult following.

God the Father is within and quite accessible.

I would say that you do not know. Historians tend to be able to support their claims. Simple believers, not so much.

 

[Colt]

One way to know is by doing research and delving into what has been written about the historical Jesus.

Another way to know is from reading what Baha'u'llah wrote about Jesus. I do not really need to know much more than that and whatever is in the gospels that concurs with that description of Jesus is what I will believe.

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.

We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.

Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God. Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised. We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86

Baháʼu'lláh‘s opinion of Jesus is that of one who doesn’t believe all of the story, just the parts that he found believable.

 

[Colt]

I would say that you do not know. Historians tend to be able to support their claims. Simple believers, not so much.

I would say historians would be speculating as all that which is not available to us 2000 years hence isn’t available to them either.

The apostles believed the return of Christ to be eminent. They didn’t have an immediate motivation to write books the week after he left and have a Ken Burns document everything they did. They weren’t thinking about pleasing carping skeptics 2000 years latter.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I would say historians would be speculating as all that which is not available to us 2000 years hence isn’t available to them either.

The apostles believed the return of Christ to be eminent. They didn’t have an immediate motivation to write books the week after he left and have a Ken Burns document everything they did. They weren’t thinking about pleasing carping skeptics 2000 years latter.

But they do not just "speculate". They must have sound reasons for their dates. Believers on the other hand are only looking for excuses to believe. That is why apologist sites are the worst places to go to when it comes to historical or scientific questions about the Bible. They have an incentive to lie and they often do.

 

[Colt]

One way to know is by doing research and delving into what has been written about the historical Jesus.

Another way to know is from reading what Baha'u'llah wrote about Jesus. I do not really need to know much more than that and whatever is in the gospels that concurs with that description of Jesus is what I will believe.

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.

We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.

Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God. Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised. We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86

Do Bahai believe in the afterlife?

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

No, we don’t “know” that his followers waited “50 years” to write any notes, quotes or books. That defies common sense concerning any religious figure in the age of writings. We don’t “know” that at all. We do know that we have copies of copies of copies of writings handed down to the oldest known fragments and manuscripts in existence.

For spirit born disciples we know that the son of God is present here now. We know that before and after Jesus there have been a number of false Messiah claimants. I think Baháʼu'lláh is one of the false Messiahs with a cult following.

God the Father is within and quite accessible.

Actually, nothing from the 1st century survives. That's a fact. The earliest fragment we have is a piece of the gospel from John dated somewhere between 125 and 200 CE so there's no manuscripts of anything in the New Testament prior to this fragment. It's called Rylands P52 and it's about the size of a credit card. Here's a pic of it and some info

Rylands Library Papyrus P52 - Wikipedia

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Sorry to butt in, but don't you think some of the gospels are more likely to represent the historical Jesus than other gospels, as noted in this book?

How Paul changed the course of Christianity

No, I don't. I think the gospel writers created Jesus based on decades old stories that had been floating around.

 

[Trailblazer]

Baháʼu'lláh‘s opinion of Jesus is that of one who doesn’t believe all of the story, just the parts that he found believable.

Why should anyone believe stories that men wrote about Jesus?
Why would it even matter if Jesus rose from the grave?
I have asked this many times but not one Christian can give me an answer.
What matters about Jesus is in this post: #219 Trailblazer, 10 minutes ago

Baha'u'llah did not have to believe because He knew what happened to Jesus and what did not happen.
Baha'u'llah got His knowledge from God so it is inerrant.

“O KING! I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow.” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 57

Jesus got His knowledge from God the same way Baha'u'llah did, through the Holy Spirit, but since Jesus never wrote scriptures there is no way for us to know what Jesus really said. By contrast, we know exactly what Baha'u'llah said because He wrote His own scriptures and we have the originals.

 

[Colt]

Why should anyone believe stories that men wrote about Jesus?
Why would it even matter if Jesus rose from the grave?
I have asked this many times but not one Christian can give me an answer.
What matters about Jesus is in this post: #219 Trailblazer, 10 minutes ago

Returning from the dead was his proof of his authority to teach the original Gospel of the Kingdom like he said. It proved his divinity and it proves life after death.

 

[Colt]

“What sign can You show us to prove Your authority to do these things?”19Jesus answered, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up again.”20“This temple took forty-six years to build,” the Jews replied, “and You are going to raise it up in three days?”21But Jesus was speaking about the temple of His body. 22After He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this. Then they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.

 

[Trailblazer]

Do Bahai believe in the afterlife?

Yes we do, and we also believe that the primary purpose of this life is to prepare for the afterlife, which is simply a continuation of our earthly life in the spiritual world. Baha'u'llah wrote about the journey of the soul and the form it will take, but we are told that we cannot know the nature of the world beyond as that has been concealed by God.

The following short video is a good summary of what Baha'is believe about the afterlife.

 

[Colt]

Yes we do, and we also believe that the primary purpose of this life is to prepare for the afterlife, which is simply a continuation of our earthly life in the spiritual world. Baha'u'llah wrote about the journey of the soul and the form it will take, but we are told that we cannot know the nature of the world beyond as that has been concealed by God.

The following short video is a good summary of what Baha'is believe about the afterlife.

That being the case, why is it so hard to believe in Jesus having an afterlife???

 

[Trailblazer]

Returning from the dead was his proof of his authority to teach the original Gospel of the Kingdom like he said. It proved his divinity and it proves life after death.

You said: "Returning from the dead was his proof of his authority to teach the original Gospel of the Kingdom like he said."
Please show me any verses where Jesus ever said that.

Returning from the dead has NOTHING to do with the authority of Jesus. Jesus got His authority from God, just as Baha'u'lah did.

Jesus was not God, He was a Manifestation of God, and as such he has two-fold nature, both human and divine. that did not have to be proven by Jesus rising from the dead or any miracles He performed, it was self-evident by the mission He accomplished and the effect He had upon the hearts of man. No mere human being ever had such an impact upon humanity.

Jesus returning from the dead does not prove there is life after death because the life we will have after death will not be in a physical body, it will be in a spiritual body. Do you believe that heaven is a physical dimension where people live in physical bodies? When Paul said that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God he meant that they cannot exist in heaven because heaven is a purely spiritual dimension. That is precisely why we will have a spiritual body after we die and go to heaven. The Baha'i Writings concur with Paul on this. When we die we will be transformed into a spiritual body.

“The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 157

“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194

1 Corinthians 15:35-58 New Living Translation

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.

51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

54 Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die,[c] this Scripture will be fulfilled: “Death is swallowed up in victory.[d]

 

[Trailblazer]

That being the case, why is it so hard to believe in Jesus having an afterlife???

Of course Jesus has an afterlife! Jesus is not dead, only His body is dead. His soul ascended and Jesus lives on the spiritual world in a spiritual body.

#276 Trailblazer, 2 minutes ago

 

[Colt]

You said: "Returning from the dead was his proof of his authority to teach the original Gospel of the Kingdom like he said."
Please show me any verses where Jesus ever said that.

Returning from the dead has NOTHING to do with the authority of Jesus. Jesus got His authority from God, just as Baha'u'lah did.

Jesus was not God, He was a Manifestation of God, and as such he has two-fold nature, both human and divine. that did not have to be proven by Jesus rising from the dead or any miracles He performed, it was self-evident by the mission He accomplished and the effect He had upon the hearts of man. No mere human being ever had such an impact upon humanity.

Jesus returning from the dead does not prove there is life after death because the life we will have after death will not be in a physical body, it will be in a spiritual body. Do you believe that heaven is a physical dimension where people live in physical bodies? When Paul said that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God he meant that they cannot exist in heaven because heaven is a purely spiritual dimension. That is precisely why we will have a spiritual body after we die and go to heaven. The Baha'i Writings concur with Paul on this. When we die we will be transformed into a spiritual body.

“The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 157

“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.”
Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194

1 Corinthians 15:35-58 New Living Translation

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.

51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

54 Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die,[c] this Scripture will be fulfilled: “Death is swallowed up in victory.[d]

What sign can You show us to prove Your authority to do these things?”19Jesus answered, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up again.”20“This temple took forty-six years to build,” the Jews replied, “and You are going to raise it up in three days?”21But Jesus was speaking about the temple of His body. 22After He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this. Then they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.

38Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to Him, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from You.”39Jesus replied, “A wicked and adulterous generation demands a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.



The reason the Father loves Me is that I lay down My life in order to take it up again. 18No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of My own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from My Father.”

 

[Colt]

Of course Jesus has an afterlife! Jesus is not dead, only His body is dead. His soul ascended and Jesus lives on the spiritual world in a spiritual body.

#276 Trailblazer, 2 minutes ago

Jesus returned from death on his own volition and appeared a number of times to his apostles and other believers. He had the power to do it because he is the Son of God. He told them he would. He did and when finished he returned to his rightful place in heaven where he was before incarnating on earth.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

What sign can You show us to prove Your authority to do these things?”19Jesus answered, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up again.”20“This temple took forty-six years to build,” the Jews replied, “and You are going to raise it up in three days?”21But Jesus was speaking about the temple of His body. 22After He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this. Then they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.

38Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to Him, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from You.”39Jesus replied, “A wicked and adulterous generation demands a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.



The reason the Father loves Me is that I lay down My life in order to take it up again. 18No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of My own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from My Father.”

We have to remember that Paul didn't believe Jesus raised bodily. Paul believed and taught that Jesus was raised in a spiritual body and it was this spiritual body he believes he encountered on the road to Damascus.

The Raising of a Spiritual Body

Both terms are important for understanding Paul’s view of the resurrection of Jesus: Jesus was raised in the body; but it was a body that was spiritual.

https://ehrmanblog.org/paul-resurrection-spiritual-body/