When Jesus died.Did his spirit go to the center of the earth?

[Eli G]

From the NWT: As soon as the Sabbath began, he went into the synagogue and started to teach. And they were astounded at his way of teaching, for he was teaching them as one having authority, and not as the scribes. Just then there was a man in their synagogue who was under the power of an unclean spirit, and he shouted. “What have we to do with you, Jesus the Naz·a·reneʹ? Did you come to destroy us? I know exactly who you are, the Holy One of God!” But Jesus rebuked it, saying: “Be silent, and come out of him!” And the unclean spirit, after throwing the man into a convulsion and yelling at the top of its voice, came out of him. 27 Well, the people were all so astonished that they began to discuss it among themselves, saying: “What is this? A new teaching! He authoritatively orders even the unclean spirits, and they obey him.”

My question to you is, if a spirit being like a demon can possess another human then why is it so hard to believe that the spirit Son could occupy the person of Jesus of Nazareth? Notice that Jesus could see them and they knew who Jesus was!

That is an interesting question ... I just want to close the last discussion before going to this next point:

According to the more accurate translation of the terms for "receive" and "authority" in the passage, do you agree that John 10:17,18 does not support the idea that Jesus resurrected himself?

 

[Colt]

That is an interesting question ... I just want to close the last discussion before going to this next point:

According to the more accurate translation of the terms for "receive" and "authority" in the passage, do you agree that John 10:17,18 does not support the idea that Jesus resurrected himself?

No I don’t agree that the translation is more accurate. “Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.”

Take it again still doesn’t preclude the Son being alive in a spirit form after laying down his mortal body.

The events after he returned combined with what he said he would do to prove his authority all indicate that the celestial being who came down from heaven and incarnate as the son of man did not die on the cross. Gods don’t die.

 

[Eli G]

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree.
Have a good one.

 

[paarsurrey]

You just made that up.

Jesus prayed to his father about passing through the terrible experience he was getting ready to face. How despicable of you to accuse Jesus of plotting a dishonest conspiracy! You are also accusing hundreds of witnesses, Jesus’ family and others of lying! Who could imagine the crushing blow Jesus faced! Rejected by his own people and well aware of what would happen to Israel for rejecting the son and Father! Of course he prayed deeply!

" Jesus prayed to his father "

Jesus prayed in the garden most fervently* to his G-d that he be saved, so he was saved from the cursed death on the Cross, and he was saved by G-d, please. Right?

Regards
______________
*Luke 22:44
44And in His anguish, He prayed more earnestly, and His sweat became like drops of blood falling to the ground.

 

[Colt]

" Jesus prayed to his father "

Jesus prayed in the garden most fervently* to his G-d that he be saved, so he was saved from the cursed death on the Cross, and he was saved by G-d, please. Right?

Regards
______________
*Luke 22:44
44And in His anguish, He prayed more earnestly, and His sweat became like drops of blood falling to the ground.

No wrong! You put those words in his mouth. Execution isn't a "cursed death".

 

[Eli G]

From the NWT: As soon as the Sabbath began, he went into the synagogue and started to teach. And they were astounded at his way of teaching, for he was teaching them as one having authority, and not as the scribes. Just then there was a man in their synagogue who was under the power of an unclean spirit, and he shouted. “What have we to do with you, Jesus the Naz·a·reneʹ? Did you come to destroy us? I know exactly who you are, the Holy One of God!” But Jesus rebuked it, saying: “Be silent, and come out of him!” And the unclean spirit, after throwing the man into a convulsion and yelling at the top of its voice, came out of him. 27 Well, the people were all so astonished that they began to discuss it among themselves, saying: “What is this? A new teaching! He authoritatively orders even the unclean spirits, and they obey him.”

My question to you is, if a spirit being like a demon can possess another human then why is it so hard to believe that the spirit Son could occupy the person of Jesus of Nazareth? Notice that Jesus could see them and they knew who Jesus was!

On this matter... I ask you:

can you distinguish the difference between

1) a spirit that possesses a human body, and

2) a spiritual being that ceases to be a spirit to become a human being born as such

...?

 

[Colt]

On this matter... I ask you:

can you distinguish the difference between

1) a spirit that possesses a human body, and

2) a spiritual being that ceases to be a spirit to become a human being born as such

...?

In the case of Jesus he was both human and divine in one miraculous personality. Just like a celestial being who possesses a human cant be visibly seen with human eyes, neither could we see the celestial being "Michael" who was in Jesus of Nazareth. When the Father appeared above the Son in the Jorden river he could not be seen, only heard.

I disagree that Michael ceased being Michael when he became Jesus, rather I believe something new was added to Michael who was in existence from the eternal past; human.

 

[Eli G]

And where does the idea that Jesus was human and god at the same time come from?

Can you understand that Jesus had to be a baby, then a child, then a teenager, and finally become an adult?

Luke 2:40 And the young child continued growing and getting strong, being filled with wisdom, and God’s favor continued upon him.

Do you think that baby-Jesus was a baby-god, in the style of the demigods of Greek mythology?

 

[Colt]

And where does the idea that Jesus was human and god at the same time come from?

Can you understand that Jesus had to be a baby, then a child, then a teenager, and finally become an adult?

Luke 2:40 And the young child continued growing and getting strong, being filled with wisdom, and God’s favor continued upon him.

Do you think that baby-Jesus was a baby-god, in the style of the demigods of Greek mythology?

The idea comes from the evidence of his life on earth and triumphant return to heaven whereupon all power and authority was given to him.

Jesus slowly became aware of his identity as he progressed as a human subject to the will of the Father. Christ Michael was on earth living the life that we are called to live. I would say that he was the son incarnate not a baby-god. Greek mythology grew out of the earlier activities of the sons of God who mated with the daughters of men. They weren't Gods but people revered them.

 

[Eli G]

You are talking from your imagination ... not from the actual facts we know from Scriptures. Sorry, but I am not interested in what is in your own mind, but in what you can prove with the Scriptures.

If Jesus had to grow from infant to adult, it is obvious that he was not some god while he was human. That idea is very fanciful... No person who knew Jesus in real life even had that idea cross their mind. Here are some real historical facts showing how Jesus was viewed by those who really knew him:

Luke 7:16 Now fear seized them all, and they began to glorify God, saying: “A great prophet has been raised up among us,” and, “God has turned his attention to his people.”
... 24:19 He asked them: “What things?” They said to him: “The things concerning Jesus the Naz·a·reneʹ, who proved to be a prophet powerful in deed and word before God and all the people;

John 1:45 Philip found Na·thanʹa·el and said to him: “We have found the one of whom Moses, in the Law, and the Prophets wrote: Jesus, the son of Joseph, from Nazʹa·reth.”
... 6:14 When the people saw the sign he performed, they began to say: “This really is the Prophet who was to come into the world.”

Acts 2:22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus the Naz·a·reneʹ was a man publicly shown to you by God through powerful works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, just as you yourselves know. ..."
... 3:22 In fact, Moses said: ‘Jehovah your God will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet like me. You must listen to whatever he tells you.
... 7:37 “This is the Moses who said to the sons of Israel: ‘God will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet like me.’

Have a good one.

 

[Colt]

You are talking from your imagination ... not from the actual facts we know from Scriptures. Sorry, but I am not interested in what is in your own mind, but in what you can prove with the Scriptures.

If Jesus had to grow from infant to adult, it is obvious that he was not some god while he was human. That idea is very fanciful... No person who knew Jesus in real life even had that idea cross their mind. Here are some real historical facts showing how Jesus was viewed by those who really knew him:

Luke 7:16 Now fear seized them all, and they began to glorify God, saying: “A great prophet has been raised up among us,” and, “God has turned his attention to his people.”
... 24:19 He asked them: “What things?” They said to him: “The things concerning Jesus the Naz·a·reneʹ, who proved to be a prophet powerful in deed and word before God and all the people;

John 1:45 Philip found Na·thanʹa·el and said to him: “We have found the one of whom Moses, in the Law, and the Prophets wrote: Jesus, the son of Joseph, from Nazʹa·reth.”
... 6:14 When the people saw the sign he performed, they began to say: “This really is the Prophet who was to come into the world.”

Acts 3:22 In fact, Moses said: ‘Jehovah your God will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet like me. You must listen to whatever he tells you.
... 7:37 “This is the Moses who said to the sons of Israel: ‘God will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet like me.’

Have a good one.

Its not my imagination, my belief is based on what Jesus said and did which can be found in the scriptures. At times Jesus spoke from the vantage point of a human, the son of man, and at other times he spoke by divine right.

Jesus replied, “Even if I testify about Myself, My testimony is valid, because I know where I came from and where I am going. But you do not know where I came from or where I am going. 15You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one. 16But even if I do judge, My judgment is true, because I am not alone; I am with the Father who sent Me.e 17Even in your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid.f 18I am One who testifies about Myself, and the Father, who sent Me, also testifies about Me.”19“Where is Your Father?” they asked Him.

“You do not know Me or My Father,” Jesus answered. “If you knew Me, you would know My Father as well.”20He spoke these words while teaching in the temple courts, near the treasury. Yet no one seized Him, because His hour had not yet come.21Again He said to them, “I am going away, and you will look for Me, but you will die in your sin. Where I am going, you cannot come.”22So the Jews began to ask, “Will He kill Himself, since He says, ‘Where I am going, you cannot come’?”23Then He told them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24That is why I told you that you would die in your sins. For unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”25“Who are You?” they asked.

“Just what I have been telling you from the beginning,” Jesus replied. 26“I have much to say about you and much to judge. But the One who sent Me is truthful, and what I have heard from Him, I tell the world.”27They did not understand that He was telling them about the Father. 28So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing on My own, but speak exactly what the Father has taught Me. 29He who sent Me is with Me. He has not left Me alone, because I always do what pleases Him.”

 

[Eli G]

Your interpretation of that passage is not consistent with reality, but conforms to your own preconceived ideas. Jesus never said that he was the Father, but that the Father could be known through him. It is very easy to deduce, since many times when he spoke of the Father he referred to Him as "your Father in heaven". Check these only according Matthew: Matt. 5:16,45,48; 6:1,9,26,32; 7:11,21; 10:32,33; 12:50; 16:17; 18:10,14,19,35. Do you think I am interested in arguing with you how wrong it is to think that Jesus was saying that he was literally the Father? No, sure not; it is neither logical nor consistent with what you read in those texts that he said.

Matt. 23:9 Moreover, do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One.

I'm also not interested in inconsistent interpretations. Discussing imaginary ideas, inconsistent interpretations and personal opinions is the never-ending story, pure fun and nothing more. I don't talk about the things of God to entertain myself, but to give accurate information to others. Thanks for your time.

 

[Colt]

Your interpretation of that passage is not consistent with reality, but conforms to your own preconceived ideas. Jesus never said that he was the Father, but that the Father could be known through him. It is very easy to deduce, since many times when he spoke of the Father he referred to Him as "your Father in heaven". Check these only according Matthew: Matt. 5:16,45,48; 6:1,9,26,32; 7:11,21; 10:32,33; 12:50; 16:17; 18:10,14,19,35. Do you think I am interested in arguing with you how wrong it is to think that Jesus was saying that he was literally the Father? No, sure not; it is neither logical nor consistent with what you read in those texts that he said.

Matt. 23:9 Moreover, do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One.

I'm also not interested in inconsistent interpretations. Discussing imaginary ideas, inconsistent interpretations and personal opinions is the never-ending story, pure fun and nothing more. I don't talk about the things of God to entertain myself, but to give accurate information to others. Thanks for your time.

Its what Jesus said and its consistent. Its the realty that occurred when such a miraculous person lived on earth and alluded to his true identity.

“You do not know Me or My Father,” -----> But of course they knew the human Jesus, they were looking at him. He must then be talking about the Son of God that came down from heaven that was in Jesus.

“You are from below; I am from above. -----> Again, he is obviously referring to coming down from heaven. He's saying that his audience didn't come down from heaven.

Jesus often referred to his Father because God is the Father of his divine Son.

Do you believe that Gabriel came down from heaven? Or was he created on earth by a miraculous conception?

One God, plural manifestation.

 

[Eli G]

I answer you because I think there is a misunderstanding here. We Jehovah's Witnesses know that Jesus had been in heaven before he was born. However, when he was born as a human he was just a human being, not a spirit disguised as a human, nor was he a demigod.

The Scripture specifies: Jesus was made flesh (John 1:14; 1 John 4:1,2) to avoid any confusion since there were already ideas that were beginning to appear in the time of John writing and which were only fantasies out of the imagination of some recently-converted among the gentiles who for some reason departed from the truth about the Christ that had been transmitted by the apostles and others who knew Jesus from the beginning.

The apostate church that arose several centuries later was the inventor of the idea that Jesus is part of a triple God, and thus distorted the truth about the identity of the Son of God, whom the apostates came to call "God-Son." There is a big difference between both expressions... a clearminded person can notice the satanic irony behind the substitution of one expression for the other one.

 

[Colt]

I answer you because I think there is a misunderstanding here. We Jehovah's Witnesses know that Jesus had been in heaven before he was born. However, when he was born as a human he was just a human being, not a spirit disguised as a human, nor was he a demigod.

The Scripture specifies: Jesus was made flesh (John 1:14; 1 John 4:1,2) to avoid any confusion since there were already ideas that were beginning to appear in the time of John writing and which were only fantasies out of the imagination of some recently-converted among the gentiles who for some reason departed from the truth about the Christ that had been transmitted by the apostles and others who knew Jesus from the beginning.

The apostate church that arose several centuries later was the inventor of the idea that Jesus is part of a triple God, and thus distorted the truth about the identity of the Son of God, whom the apostates came to call "God-Son." There is a big difference between both expressions... a clearminded person can notice the satanic irony behind the substitution of one expression for the other one.

I see, but that’s basically what I said, the preexisting Son of God took on a human body. He was then both human and divine in one person. That’s why after his body was killed he could return on his own as the same celestial being that he was before coming down from heaven. After the resurrection he was in a “new form” that differed from the flesh.

 

[Eli G]

I see, but that’s basically what I said, the preexisting Son of God took on a human body. He was then both human and divine in one person. That’s why after his body was killed he could return on his own as the same celestial being that he was before coming down from heaven. After the resurrection he was in a “new form” that differed from the flesh.

The problem in this post is that Jesus can not have two natures at the same time: or he is a spirit (a divine being) or he is a human (with body of flesh) ...

Phil. 2:5 Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although he was existing in God’s form, did not even consider the idea of trying to be equal to God. 7 No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and became human. 8 More than that, when he came as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death, yes, death on a torture stake. 9 For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

Note the phrase in bold. It means that he abandoned one nature to take on a very different one... that is the example of humility, which is even greater when he even allows himself to be killed in that nature to give glory to God by playing a fundamental role in fulfilling the purpose of Him.

form of God (spirit body) VS form of slave (flesh body)

Not both natures at the same time, but one.

 

[rational experiences]

A human is just a human.

One species human.

Two of...as a man and a wo man.

So a man theist describes names.

Hu MAN. MAN. My word about the other human woMAN.

Notice MAN makes his status categorically owner of his words.

Hence to think you said I also own woman. A baby man that regained his life is by woman's cell body. Is proven to be the writer bible testimony.

Owner ship is what he first implied. I give permission Sion to own what I want to take.

Now was he taking a woman's cell?

No.

He was given it.

Owner ship however gives the theist false owner ship.

So he stated gods ark earth and it's stone. I own. Earth owned itself.

He takes his powers from God via the stone ark.

A long time ago he explained the sun converted earths mass and gave it metal in converting and bored out tunnels.

Tunnels he said owned fresh water. How fresh water is placed deep beneath sea water.

He teaches. My holy spirit man life belongs first as heavens form.

My life is saved in stretched water....water mass that you don't drown within. Oxygenated.

Within by water owned bio body is God as stone my bones. I placate I own god within.

Natural. Not any thesis.

I know my holy life as a human is mainly water and dust minerals within water. My dusts were in water.

As I am conscious water the position one is named carrier. January water carrier.

I knew I scientifically had displaced shifted water mass.

I even tell you I did.

Am I inside earth?

No. Natural fresh water is.

Am I displaced water?
No.

I simply explained fresh water is within God earths body too.

Am I frozen water?

No.

Yet man says I claim I saved life.

Yet the saviour cooling evolution is ice. Reborn end year as returned ice.

Not a man.

I preach I depend on my bio survival by ice existing.

Therefore as a theory is first by man a story...he is lying.

As a man only owns his own self.

If you begin lying by man's words making claims where you don't own claim....then confessing Proved you lied. By testimony itself.

Is part of the proof against a human theist. Just a man.

 

[Colt]

The problem in this post is that Jesus can not have two natures at the same time: or he is a spirit (a divine being) or he is a human (with body of flesh) ...

Phil. 2:5 Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although he was existing in God’s form, did not even consider the idea of trying to be equal to God. 7 No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and became human. 8 More than that, when he came as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death, yes, death on a torture stake. 9 For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

Note the phrase in bold. It means that he abandoned one nature to take on a very different one... that is the example of humility, which is even greater when he even allows himself to be killed in that nature to give glory to God by playing a fundamental role in fulfilling the purpose of Him.

form of God (spirit body) VS form of slave (flesh body)

Not both natures at the same time, but one.

Thats strange! The Son of God left part of himself in heaven so he wasn't really that person anymore? How does one take a nature out of themselves and leave it somewhere else? What was "Gods form" that Jesus existed in?

Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words I say to you, I do not speak on My own. Instead, it is the Father dwelling in Me, performing His works.

It looks like the Son did NOT leave his divine nature in heaven after all???

Very strange explanation you have. I believe that The Son didn't leave anything behind other than the glory of his estate. Rather he added something to his person, human. He was therefore both human and divine in one person as evidenced by his life.

 

[Eli G]

I didn't know that nature was something you carried with you when you ceased to exist... Or perhaps you don't understand the transformation of Jesus from the spirit that he was to the cell that was introduced into his mother's womb.

Do you think that that cell in which the being of the previous spirit had been minimized was screaming there inside to be taken out of that small space, and that when his human mother gave birth to him he said "free at last"?

 

[Colt]

I didn't know that nature was something you carried with you when you ceased to exist... Or perhaps you don't understand the transformation of Jesus from the spirit that he was to the cell that was introduced into his mother's womb.

Do you think that that cell in which the being of the previous spirit had been minimized was screaming there inside to be taken out of that small space, and that when his human mother gave birth to him he said "free at last"?

You didn't answer my questions. How did the Son of God leave part of himself in heaven yet remain the same person?

What is "Gods Form" that Jesus existed in on earth?

I can't fathom how the Son was in existence as a young human child but not fully aware of his divinity, his power or authority. He didn't start his public teaching until 30+ .