-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
When Jesus died.Did his spirit go to the center of the earth?
- Thread starter Frank Goad
- Start date
Thanks for answering. Then go back to my point: in John 10:17,18 the Greek verb "to receive/get" is mentioned twice:
1) when the passage says "to give my soul and to get it back"
2) when the passage says: "this instruction I received from my Father".
Tell me something: why the first time it appears in the passage the version you are quoting translates this verb as "to take" and the second time IN THE SAME PARAGRAPH it translates it as "I received"???? We all know that TAKING and RECEIVING is not the same, right?
Colt
Well-Known Member
I don't have a problem with it becuse if he has the power to take it again then he would still be in existence to take it.
When we consider that he returned in a new form after his body was killed then it all makes sense.
And that is another problem, because the word that is translated as "power" in the version that says "I have the power" DOES NOT mean power but AUTHORITY, and that is quiet a change, don't you think?
Colt
Well-Known Member
Not really, its still his innate will. As a divine being he had/has power and authority. In fact the Jews were questioning his authority to preach becuse in Judaism authority is everything! He told them that he would prove his authority by returning from death on his own.
Colt
Well-Known Member
Its like you are conducting a trial??? A grand inquisitor???
Considering that there are a number of translations all of which all concur with the common understanding of John 10: 14-18 this indoctrination technique is meaningless to me. It may have worked on you but not everyone will see what you've been told to see. Besides, the NWT still leaves John 2:19 in tact
Therefore, in answer, the Jews said to him: “What sign+ have you to show us, since you are doing these things?” 19 In answer Jesus said to them: “Break down this temple,*+ and in three days I will raise it up.” 20 Therefore the Jews said: “This temple was built in forty-six years, and will you raise it up in three days?” 21 But he was talking about the temple+ of his body. 22 When, though, he was raised up from the dead, his disciples called to mind+ that he used to say this; and they believed the Scripture and the saying that Jesus said.
No, it's not that... I know that if a dialogue focuses on one thing at a time, it is possible to reach an agreement while maintaining order and peace in the exchange. If you talk about several things at the same time, it is likely that none of them will be clarified... It is a bad practice that many do not realize. Do you understand me? Scripture counsels Christians that this must be the way, and no other.
James 3:13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him by his fine conduct demonstrate works performed with a mildness that comes from wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter jealousy and contentiousness in your hearts, do not be bragging and lying against the truth. 15 This is not the wisdom that comes down from above; it is earthly, animalistic, demonic. 16 For wherever there are jealousy and contentiousness, there will also be disorder and every vile thing.
17 But the wisdom from above is first of all pure, then peaceable, reasonable, ready to obey, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial, not hypocritical. 18 Moreover, the fruit of righteousness is sown in peaceful conditions for those who are making peace.
Back to the topic: if you think on Jesus RECEIVING his life back because the Father gave that permission, you understand better what the Bible says OUT OF your own preconceived ideas so you start learning really from the Bible.
James 3:13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him by his fine conduct demonstrate works performed with a mildness that comes from wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter jealousy and contentiousness in your hearts, do not be bragging and lying against the truth. 15 This is not the wisdom that comes down from above; it is earthly, animalistic, demonic. 16 For wherever there are jealousy and contentiousness, there will also be disorder and every vile thing.
17 But the wisdom from above is first of all pure, then peaceable, reasonable, ready to obey, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial, not hypocritical. 18 Moreover, the fruit of righteousness is sown in peaceful conditions for those who are making peace.
Back to the topic: if you think on Jesus RECEIVING his life back because the Father gave that permission, you understand better what the Bible says OUT OF your own preconceived ideas so you start learning really from the Bible.
Colt
Well-Known Member
You have taken one particular translation over many that oppose your point. How convenient for you?
No. I am telling you that sometimes people can be biased depending on the translation they read. That is why I am trying to show you other ways to translate the same passage and all who read this dialog understand why it is important to have an open mind to different interpretations.
As you can see from my previous posts, there are reasons to think that John 10:17,18 does not support the idea that Jesus resurrected himself. If my arguments seem incorrect to you, then mention what specific detail seems to you so and we continue dealing with the matter.
As you can see from my previous posts, there are reasons to think that John 10:17,18 does not support the idea that Jesus resurrected himself. If my arguments seem incorrect to you, then mention what specific detail seems to you so and we continue dealing with the matter.
Colt
Well-Known Member
The fact that Jesus returned in a new form as he said that he would in John 2:19 overrules the question posed by one particular interpretation of John 10: 14 That being the case your point based on one biased translation is moot.
Why do you believe that it isn't possible for the Son of God to lay down his mortal fleah yet still be his spirit self????
I sense some agression in your way to answer ... It would be preferable if you try to avoid that, so that we can continue the dialogue and reach some agreement, even if it was the agreement that we will not agree ... is also valid
. The Bible says that would happen at this time.Every Jehovah's Witness knows that Jesus Christ was resurrected by Jehovah at the third day (the Bible says so) ... I don't think that's a point we can't agree on. Is that what you think, that the correct reading of John 10:17,18 changes the fact that Jesus was resurrected?
Colt
Well-Known Member
Its not aggression, I'm just plain spoken. You just confessed to having a bias yourself. Thats called "phycological projection". Its when one see's their own behavior in others and accuses them of it in order to avoid the discomfort of what they are doing themselves.I sense some agression in your way to answer ... It would be preferable if you try to avoid that, so that we can continue the dialogue and reach some agreement, even if it was the agreement that we will not agree ... is also valid
Every Jehovah's Witness knows that Jesus Christ was resurrected by Jehovah at the third day (the Bible says so) ... I don't think that's a point we can't agree on. Is that what you think, that the correct reading of John 10:17,18 changes the fact that Jesus was resurrected?
Mmmh, no. I did not say any of that ...
Maybe another day we continue the dialog. I guess this was too much for one single day ...
Have a nice one.
Colt
Well-Known Member
I sense some agression in your way to answer ... It would be preferable if you try to avoid that, so that we can continue the dialogue and reach some agreement, even if it was the agreement that we will not agree ... is also valid
Every Jehovah's Witness knows that Jesus Christ was resurrected by Jehovah at the third day (the Bible says so) ... I don't think that's a point we can't agree on. Is that what you think, that the correct reading of John 10:17,18 changes the fact that Jesus was resurrected?
From the NWT: As soon as the Sabbath began, he went into the synagogue and started to teach. And they were astounded at his way of teaching, for he was teaching them as one having authority, and not as the scribes. Just then there was a man in their synagogue who was under the power of an unclean spirit, and he shouted. “What have we to do with you, Jesus the Naz·a·reneʹ? Did you come to destroy us? I know exactly who you are, the Holy One of God!” But Jesus rebuked it, saying: “Be silent, and come out of him!” And the unclean spirit, after throwing the man into a convulsion and yelling at the top of its voice, came out of him. 27 Well, the people were all so astonished that they began to discuss it among themselves, saying: “What is this? A new teaching! He authoritatively orders even the unclean spirits, and they obey him.”
My question to you is, if a spirit being like a demon can possess another human then why is it so hard to believe that the spirit Son could occupy the person of Jesus of Nazareth? Notice that Jesus could see them and they knew who Jesus was!
Colt
Well-Known Member
Right and your snarky way of speaking further undermines your point.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Leave the one's cherry picked boy cOLTER, as corrupted by Hellenist Paul and the Pauline-Church as they make Jesus a false Messenger/Prophet in terms of Deuteronomy, since Jesus was born a Jew and died a Jew, not a Pauline-Christian, please. Right?
Regards
Colt
Well-Known Member
Jesus taught the Gospel for 3+ years prior to being killed by fellow Jews. He was entombed and returned from the death of his body on the 3rd day. After returning to heaven, several years passed before Paul had his conversion.
Christianity is about Jesus, it replaced the religion of Jesus. Paul had his own ideas.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
" He (Jesus) was entombed"
Jesus friends took Jesus' wounded body hurriedly to the tomb so that Jesus is treated for his wounds, and when he was able to come out he was seen by his family and friends. Jesus did not die and could not die on the Cross, a cursed death, as he was truthful Messenger/Prophet of G-d, and he had prayed in the garden very fervently for that , please. Didn't Jesus pray, please? Right?
Regards
Colt
Well-Known Member
You just made that up.
Jesus prayed to his father about passing through the terrible experience he was getting ready to face. How despicable of you to accuse Jesus of plotting a dishonest conspiracy! You are also accusing hundreds of witnesses, Jesus’ family and others of lying! Who could imagine the crushing blow Jesus faced! Rejected by his own people and well aware of what would happen to Israel for rejecting the son and Father! Of course he prayed deeply!
Last edited: