When Jesus died.Did his spirit go to the center of the earth?

[Eli G]

The problem with those who believe that Jesus is God is that they cannot accept that Jesus was completely dead when he was killed (Rev. 1:17,18). That denial, together with other beliefs such as that of a soul that comes out alive and conscious from dead bodies, means that they do not understand the complete truth.

Although they do not realize it, the implications of their mistakes are catastrophic. For example, Luke 23:46 says that the spirit of Jesus went into the hands of God when he died (Ecl. 12:7), so many see there one Jesus who remained alive ... and went up.

They also say that the soul of Jesus went alive and conscious to Hades down, and many say (although without any biblical support) that it went to what they call "Abraham's bosom" along with the thief who died at his side. And there you have a second Jesus out of the original.

They also say that the body of Jesus was resurrected by one of the Jesuses that stayed alive ... so now three of them. And when I show this to some of them, they say "well, Jesus the man was soul, body and spirit like we are", without them realizing that it is not the same to say that a complete person has a body, the spirit or force that gives life to that body, and thus the complete person becomes a living soul (Gen. 2:7), and this does not mean that we are three sentient beings in one.

When people do not want to accept a truth, they have to build a building of falsehoods on top of falsehoods, and that is what the Devil wants, because then you have to destroy that huge skyscraper floor by floor, room by room, and people do not want to work that hard ... they prefer to live in the lie that they or others have built for them and that they share with so many other people. They never become worshipers of the Father "in truth" (John 4:23,24).

It has to be like that anyway, because there will be a moment when millions of people do not want even look down from the top of their false lives ... and that will be the moment when God will show the truth to the whole world without waiting more because showing patience and waiting for changes in people will be useless, only He will determine that moment, but it seems to some of us that it is too close, just around the corner and about to appear in front of us.

2 Pet. 3:9 Jehovah is not slow concerning his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire anyone to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance. 10 But Jehovah’s day will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar, but the elements being intensely hot will be dissolved, and earth and the works in it will be exposed.

 

[Colt]

The problem with those who believe that Jesus is God is that they cannot accept that Jesus was completely dead when he was killed (Rev. 1:17,18). That denial, together with other beliefs such as that of a soul that comes out alive and conscious from dead bodies, means that they do not understand the complete truth.

Although they do not realize it, the implications of their mistakes are catastrophic. For example, Luke 23:46 says that the spirit of Jesus went into the hands of God when he died (Ecl. 12:7), so many see there one Jesus who remained alive ... and went up.

They also say that the soul of Jesus went alive and conscious to Hades down, and many say (although without any biblical support) that it went to what they call "Abraham's bosom" along with the thief who died at his side. And there you have a second Jesus out of the original.

They also say that the body of Jesus was resurrected by one of the Jesuses that stayed alive ... so now three of them. And when I show this to some of them, they say "well, Jesus the man was soul, body and spirit like we are", without them realizing that it is not the same to say that a complete person has a body, the spirit or force that gives life to that body, and thus the complete person becomes a living soul (Gen. 2:7), and this does not mean that we are three sentient beings in one.

When people do not want to accept a truth, they have to build a building of falsehoods on top of falsehoods, and that is what the Devil wants, because then you have to destroy that huge skyscraper floor by floor, room by room, and people do not want to work that hard ... they prefer to live in the lie that they or others have built for them and that they share with so many other people. They never become worshipers of the Father "in truth" (John 4:23,24).

It has to be like that anyway, because there will be a moment when millions of people do not want even look down from the top of their false lives ... and that will be the moment when God will show the truth to the whole world without waiting more because showing patience and waiting for changes in people will be useless, only He will determine that moment, but it seems to some of us that it is too close, just around the corner and about to appear in front of us.

2 Pet. 3:9 Jehovah is not slow concerning his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire anyone to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance. 10 But Jehovah’s day will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar, but the elements being intensely hot will be dissolved, and earth and the works in it will be exposed.

Only the body of Jesus died, not the spirt person of the Son of God. He returned from the death of his mortal body on his own as he said that he would and could.

 

[paarsurrey]

Only the body of Jesus died, not the spirt person of the Son of God. He returned from the death of his mortal body on his own as he said that he would and could.

Totally and certainly incorrect, I gather, didn't Thomas put his fingers where nails were driven in the body of Jesus, please? Did they drive nail in the spirit of Jesus, please?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

I've already provided the reasoning. All 4 gospels say Jesus was executed, was dead and placed in a tomb. 3 days later he was resurrected and met with believers. Like many members of the Baha’i religion you pick and choose what you want to create your own conspiracy which is completely as odds with what the Gospels say. You are simply dishonest about what is written in the Gospels.

Please read what Thomas did to feel where nails were driven into the body of Jesus. Is it not in one's Bible, please?:
John 20:25
" 24Now Thomas called Didymus, one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he replied, “Unless I see the nail marks in His hands, and put my finger where the nails have been, and put my hand into His side, I will never believe.”
John 20:25 So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he replied, "Unless I see the nail marks in His hands, and put my finger where the nails have been, and put my hand into His side, I will never believe."
Please have some belief in Jesus rather than in the Hellenist Paul. Right?

Regards

 

[Colt]

Please read what Thomas did to feel where nails were driven into the body of Jesus. Is it not in one's Bible, please?:
John 20:25
" 24Now Thomas called Didymus, one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he replied, “Unless I see the nail marks in His hands, and put my finger where the nails have been, and put my hand into His side, I will never believe.”
John 20:25 So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he replied, "Unless I see the nail marks in His hands, and put my finger where the nails have been, and put my hand into His side, I will never believe."
Please have some belief in Jesus rather than in the Hellenist Paul. Right?

Regards

One can read where Jesus was in a new form yet resembled his former likeness enough that his apostles recognized him. Complete with nail marks!

 

[Eli G]

Only the body of Jesus died, not the spirt person of the Son of God. He returned from the death of his mortal body on his own as he said that he would and could.

You're confirming what I just said. You believe that there was some other Jesus inside Jesus.

You do not even realize that what the Bible says went to Hades was not Jesus' spirit, but what it calls his soul, and which others consider to be different from spirit.

However, although the Bible says that the "soul" of Jesus was in Hades, it is not in the way that you imagine, because he was not conscious, nor does the Bible say that he went there to continue traveling through invisible worlds like any angel.

Acts (TNM with References) 2:22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus the Naz·a·reneʹ, a man publicly shown by God to YOU through powerful works and portents and signs that God did through him in YOUR midst, just as YOU yourselves know, 23 this [man], as one delivered up by the determined counsel and foreknowledge of God, YOU fastened to a stake by the hand of lawless men and did away with. 24 But God resurrected him by loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to continue to be held fast by it. 25 For David says respecting him, ‘I had Jehovah constantly before my eyes; because he is at my right hand that I may never be shaken. 26 On this account my heart became cheerful and my tongue rejoiced greatly. Moreover, even my flesh will reside in hope; 27 because you will not leave my soul in Haʹdes, neither will you allow your loyal one to see corruption. 28 You have made life’s ways known to me, you will fill me with good cheer with your face.’
29 “Men, brothers, it is allowable to speak with freeness of speech to YOU concerning the family head David, that he both deceased and was buried and his tomb is among us to this day. 30 Therefore, because he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath that he would seat one from the fruitage of his loins upon his throne, 31 he saw beforehand and spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was he forsaken in Haʹdes nor did his flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God resurrected, of which fact we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out this which YOU see and hear. 34 Actually David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand, 35 until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”’ 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know for a certainty that God made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom YOU impaled.”

Tell me something: if Christ was still alive when he DIED, what did he need a body for?

 

[Colt]

You're confirming what I just said. You believe that there was some other Jesus inside Jesus.

You do not even realize that what the Bible says went to Hades was not Jesus' spirit, but what it calls his soul, and which others consider to be different from spirit.

However, although the Bible says that the "soul" of Jesus was in Hades, it is not in the way that you imagine, because he was not conscious, nor does the Bible say that he went there to continue traveling through invisible worlds like any angel.

Acts (TNM with References) 2:22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus the Naz·a·reneʹ, a man publicly shown by God to YOU through powerful works and portents and signs that God did through him in YOUR midst, just as YOU yourselves know, 23 this [man], as one delivered up by the determined counsel and foreknowledge of God, YOU fastened to a stake by the hand of lawless men and did away with. 24 But God resurrected him by loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to continue to be held fast by it. 25 For David says respecting him, ‘I had Jehovah constantly before my eyes; because he is at my right hand that I may never be shaken. 26 On this account my heart became cheerful and my tongue rejoiced greatly. Moreover, even my flesh will reside in hope; 27 because you will not leave my soul in Haʹdes, neither will you allow your loyal one to see corruption. 28 You have made life’s ways known to me, you will fill me with good cheer with your face.’
29 “Men, brothers, it is allowable to speak with freeness of speech to YOU concerning the family head David, that he both deceased and was buried and his tomb is among us to this day. 30 Therefore, because he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath that he would seat one from the fruitage of his loins upon his throne, 31 he saw beforehand and spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was he forsaken in Haʹdes nor did his flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God resurrected, of which fact we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out this which YOU see and hear. 34 Actually David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand, 35 until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”’ 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know for a certainty that God made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom YOU impaled.”

Tell me something: if Christ was still alive when he DIED, what did he need a body for?

The Son existed in heaven before incarnating as Jesus. He was both human and divine.

“Destroy this temple and I will raise it up again.”

“I have the power to lay down my life and take it up again”.

Our creator Son was required to live the human life as one of his own created beings. That’s why he needed the mortal body.

 

[Eli G]

I understand that you believe that. It is not what I believe, since Jesus died and that is impossible to God.

I cann't believe either that a dead person can do anything for himself being dead ... sounds crazy, right?

 

[Colt]

I understand that you believe that. It is not what I believe, since Jesus died and that is impossible to God.

I cann't believe either that a dead person can do anything for himself being dead ... sounds crazy, right?

Because divine beings don’t die, only his temporary mortal flesh died. He said that he would and could return on his own volition to prove his authority. He did, but you don’t believe. Neither did the apostles until they witnessed Jesus “suddenly appearing” in locked rooms, vanishing from their sight.

 

[Eli G]

I just don't think those are precise ways to translate those words, so interpretation is incorrect also. Do you really think than when those words were written the inspired writer or his readers interprete them the way you do? Cause I don't.

 

[Colt]

I just don't think those are precise ways to translate those words, so interpretation is incorrect also. Do you really think than when those words were written the inspired writer or his readers interprete them the way you do? Cause I don't.

Oh, it was all a misinterpretation? Jesus didn’t really return from apparent death? He didn’t come back in a “new form”? He didn’t appear in locked rooms? He didn’t vanish?

 

[Eli G]

I am talking about the text you quoted on red in one of your last posts.

I am on my mobil now ... Other day we talk more.

Have a nice day.

 

[Colt]

I am talking about the text you quoted on red in one of your last posts.

I am on my mobil now ... Other day we talk more.

Have a nice day.

When he said “I“ will raise it up again? It’s not an interpretation issue because he actually did it!

See ya around.

 

[paarsurrey]

When he said “I“ will raise it up again? It’s not an interpretation issue because he actually did it!

See ya around.

So, does one deny that Jesus body had fresh healing wound of nails driven on the Cross in his hand that Jesus showed to Thomas, please?

Welcome, friend!

Regards

 

[Colt]

So, does one deny that Jesus body had fresh healing wound of nails driven on the Cross in his hand that Jesus showed to Thomas, please?

Welcome, friend!

Regards

He returned in a likeness of his former mortal body, nail marks included! Eyes, nose, ears, lips, hands, feet etc.

You added——> “healing” to the wounds.

 

[paarsurrey]

He returned in a likeness of his former mortal body, nail marks included! Eyes, nose, ears, lips, hands, feet etc.

You added——> “healing” to the wounds.

So one doesn't want to acknowledge, under some compulsions of one's religion or else, yet Jesus had survived and did not die and could not die a cursed death on the Cross, I understand, please. Right?

Regards

 

[Colt]

So one doesn't want to acknowledge, under some compulsions of one's religion or else, yet Jesus had survived and did not die and could not die a cursed death on the Cross, I understand, please. Right?

Regards

All of the Gospels say that Jesus died and rose on the third day, yet you cherry pick parts of those same Gospels to string together a flimsy conspiracy. Using the same books that you are using, the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of the death and resurrection.

 

[Eli G]

The Son existed in heaven before incarnating as Jesus. He was both human and divine.

“Destroy this temple and I will raise it up again.”

“I have the power to lay down my life and take it up again”.

Our creator Son was required to live the human life as one of his own created beings. That’s why he needed the mortal body.

Think about what some call "eisegesis." This term refers to the incorrect procedure of translating and interpreting a text trying to make it reflect some idea that is not in the text but in the mind of the person who is reading it. The correct procedure is when the person gets rid of preconceived ideas and analyzes the text to understand it from the intention with which it was written, and it is called "exegesis".

When exegesis is done, many aspects are analyzed, such as: the historical context; the context at the event level: who is talking and to whom; is it a letter?; the time it occurred and the time it is told in writing ; how those words were understood when they were said in the real event that is being narrated and how those who read this writing at the time it was written understood those words... None of this can be separated from the passages when they are being analyzed, specially if the passage is difficult to understand and there are several different versions or interpretations ... then a deep analysis of these aspects and some others is required.

Now think on John 10:17,18. The problem I see in the interpretation you are assuming is on the translation. Let's do something: try to read the text in this way:

17 δια τουτο _ Because of this
ο πατηρ _ the Father
με αγαπα _ loves me:
οτι εγω τιθημι _ because I give away (surrend, lay down)
την ψυχην μου _ the life of mine,
ινα παλιν _ for again
λαβω αυτην _ I (will) get it.
18 ουδεις _ No one
αιρει αυτην _ take it
απ εμου _ from me
αλλ εγω _ but I
τιθημι αυτην _ surrender (give away) it
απ εμαυτου _ by myself;
εξουσιαν εχω _ Authority I have
θειναι αυτην _ to give it away
και εξουσιαν εχω _ and authority I have
παλιν λαβειν αυτην _ to get it again (back).
ταυτην την εντολην _ This intruction
ελαβον _ I received
παρα του πατρος μου _ from the Father of mine.

Is it possible that if you read this way of translating the passage, your interpretation will be different?

 

[Colt]

Think about what some call "eisegesis." This term refers to the incorrect procedure of translating and interpreting a text trying to make it reflect some idea that is not in the text but in the mind of the person who is reading it. The correct procedure is when the person gets rid of preconceived ideas and analyzes the text to understand it from the intention with which it was written, and it is called "exegesis".

When exegesis is done, many aspects are analyzed, such as: the historical context; the context at the event level: who is talking and to whom; is it a letter?; the time it occurred and the time it is told in writing ; how those words were understood when they were said in the real event that is being narrated and how those who read this writing at the time it was written understood those words... None of this can be separated from the passages when they are being analyzed, specially if the passage is difficult to understand and there are several different versions or interpretations ... then a deep analysis of these aspects and some others is required.

Now think on John 10:17,18. The problem I see in the interpretation you are assuming is on the translation. Let's do something: try to read the text in this way:

17 δια τουτο _ Because of this
ο πατηρ _ the Father
με αγαπα _ loves me:
οτι εγω τιθημι _ because I give away (surrend, lay down)
την ψυχην μου _ the life of mine,
ινα παλιν _ for again
λαβω αυτην _ I (will) get it.
18 ουδεις _ No one
αιρει αυτην _ take it
απ εμου _ from me
αλλ εγω _ but I
τιθημι αυτην _ surrender (give away) it
απ εμαυτου _ by myself;
εξουσιαν εχω _ Authority I have
θειναι αυτην _ to give it away
και εξουσιαν εχω _ and authority I have
παλιν λαβειν αυτην _ to get it again (back).
ταυτην την εντολην _ This intruction
ελαβον _ I received
παρα του πατρος μου _ from the Father of mine.

Is it possible that if you read this way of translating the passage, your interpretation will be different?

Any bias would be after the fact that Jesus did lay his life down and take it up again.

Aramaic was the common language in Israel at the time of Jesus. The original Greek would be a translation from Aramaic.

When Jesus said "Destroy this Temple and I will raise it up again" he meant his body but the Jews thought he meant the Temple. It was one of the charges at his trial. After Jesus returned from apparent death on his own his apostles said they recalled what he had said. (they didn't understand it either until he did it).

The translation of the Greek that you provided says this:
17 by the
the father
with love
that I was told
my soul
in the past
take this
18 substances
heresy
from me
but I
this honor
from ourselves
dominating I have
theinai this
and they dominated I have
again take this
the commandment
elavon
near my father's

 

[Eli G]

Any bias would be after the fact that Jesus did lay his life down and take it up again.

Aramaic was the common language in Israel at the time of Jesus. The original Greek would be a translation from Aramaic.

When Jesus said "Destroy this Temple and I will raise it up again" he meant his body but the Jews thought he meant the Temple. It was one of the charges at his trial. After Jesus returned from apparent death on his own his apostles said they recalled what he had said. (they didn't understand it either until he did it).

The translation of the Greek that you provided says this:
17 by the
the father
with love
that I was told
my soul
in the past
take this
18 substances
heresy
from me
but I
this honor
from ourselves
dominating I have
theinai this
and they dominated I have
again take this
the commandment
elavon
near my father's

You are not answering my question. Is it possible that you have a real dialog with me about the topic?

My question was: do you think it is possible that if you read a diferent way to translate John 10:17,18 you will interpretate THIS PASSAGE in a diferent way?