Where are the Dead?

[Trailblazer]

And bahais pretendieng to be in agreement with practicers of spiritism

Baha'is are not in agreement with the practices of spiritism. I am just one Baha'i and I am not representative of the Baha'i Faith.

 

[Eli G]

And bahais pretendieng to be in agreement with practicers of spiritism, and atheists pretending to be religious to deceive real religious persons, and Bahais posing as Christians to give the Bible whatever meaning they want while proselytizing Baha'is, and anti-witnesses pretending to be interested in Biblical issues, etc, etc, etc.

Anything is good ... as long as it generate traffic... It's a shame that people are still fooled by people with so little desire to be interested in anything other than arguing. If any, I won't give any forum more than just a few minutes of my precious time ... it's not worthy.

Я сказал.
Конец.

 

[Trailblazer]

This topic is about the condition of dead people.

The condition of dead bodies or the condition of dead people?
People are not bodies, they are souls.

 

[Trailblazer]

Jehovah's Witnesses don't fit the category of denomination.

What category do they fit then?

 

[nPeace]

What category do they fit then?

True Christians. The pattern of the early Christians in the first century, is where Jehovah's Witnesses fit.
They fit into the folds mentioned at John 10:16

 

[Kenny]

Are the dead alive somewhere?
Can the dead interact with the living... or dead?
Is there any hope for the dead... can the dead live again?

Some scriptures I found answers these questions...

Spoiler: Scriptures

Genesis 3:19) In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”

(Psalm 104:29) When you hide your face, they are disturbed. If you take away their spirit, they die and return to the dust.
(Psalm 146:3, 4) 3 Do not put your trust in princes Nor in a son of man, who cannot bring salvation. 4 His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish.
(Ecclesiastes 3:20) All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust.

(Ecclesiastes 9:4-10) 4 There is hope for whoever is among the living, because a live dog is better off than a dead lion. 5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun. ... 10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, where you are going.

(Ecclesiastes 12:7) Then the dust returns to the earth, just as it was, and the spirit returns to the true God who gave it.

(Isaiah 26:19) “Your dead will live. My corpses will rise up. Awake and shout joyfully, You residents in the dust! For your dew is as the dew of the morning, And the earth will let those powerless in death come to life.

(Hosea 13:14) From the power of the Grave I will redeem them; From death I will recover them. Where are your stings, O Death? Where is your destructiveness, O Grave? Compassion will be concealed from my eyes.

(Mark 12:26) But concerning the dead being raised up, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account about the thornbush, that God said to him: ‘I am the God of Abraham and God of Isaac and God of Jacob’?

(John 5:28, 29) 28 Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.

(John 11:24, 25) 24 Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life;

(Acts 24:15) And I have hope toward God, which hope these men also look forward to, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.

(1 Corinthians 15:21) For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man.

Basically, those scriptures tell us

• the dead are not alive anywhere... except in God's memory. Luke 20:38
• the dead cannot communicate with either the living, or the dead. They cannot do anything. They are inactive - in the powerful grip of death.
• the dead can... will live again, by means of a resurrection, which God promises, and is both willing and able to carry out.

On examining these scriptures, do you agree this is what we find?

Personally, I think it demands a deeper look since there are also a multitude of scriptures that deal with the spirits of physically dead people like the mount of transfiguration where Moses and Elijah are both presented as alive.

The question that I think needs to be looked at is whether they are talking about the body or the soul and spirit.

So my position is the body is dead but the spirit and soul are alive and, at this point, are in Heaven until they return back to earth.

 

[YoursTrue]

Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

I believe that verse means there shall be a resurrection of the spiritually dead to spiritual life when Christ returns and I believe that process is unfolding right now.

I don't believe that verse implies that at all.

 

[YoursTrue]

Personally, I think it demands a deeper look since there are also a multitude of scriptures that deal with the spirits of physically dead people like the mount of transfiguration where Moses and Elijah are both presented as alive.

The question that I think needs to be looked at is whether they are talking about the body or the soul and spirit.

So my position is the body is dead but the spirit and soul are alive and, at this point, are in Heaven until they return back to earth.

I was thinking that some would think maybe somehow the transfiguration meant that Moses and Elijah were alive at that time.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

What category do they fit then?

According to some Christians, Jehovah's Witnesses hold false beliefs, believe and teach unbiblical doctrines, and aren't true Christians. In fact, one Christian apologetic website has a lot to say about them. For example, Who are the Jehovah’s Witnesses and what are their beliefs? and here is a search for JWs on the same website. As a matter of fact, I used to be a member of a Christian forum that categorized JWs as a cult and insisted that they weren't Christians.

 

[Kenny]

I was thinking that some would think maybe somehow the transfiguration meant that Moses and Elijah were alive at that time.

I'm sure you can find someone in any part of a spectrum so I'm sure that there would be some who do. But that isn't the only example. Rev. 6:9-11 speaks of another group that are physically dead but yet alive spiritually.

 

[nPeace]

Personally, I think it demands a deeper look since there are also a multitude of scriptures that deal with the spirits of physically dead people like the mount of transfiguration where Moses and Elijah are both presented as alive.

The question that I think needs to be looked at is whether they are talking about the body or the soul and spirit.

So my position is the body is dead but the spirit and soul are alive and, at this point, are in Heaven until they return back to earth.

...but Kenny, how can you use a vision to discuss a real thing?
You realized the Devil showed Jesus all the kingdoms of the world in an instant of time.
A vision is not an actual reality.
The transfiguration was a representation.
Jesus explained this to the disciples, just before showing them
Peter later said, we have the prophetic word made more sure by means of that vision.

 

[Kenny]

...but Kenny, how can you use a vision to discuss a real thing?
You realized the Devil showed Jesus all the kingdoms of the world in an instant of time.
A vision is not an actual reality.
The transfiguration was a representation.
Jesus explained this to the disciples, just before showing them
Peter later said, we have the prophetic word made more sure by means of that vision.

I think the issue is, ultimately, what we believe. But as I understand it, Jesus made it very clear when He said:

Matthew 22:32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”

For me, that pretty much clears up the question and I therefore interpret what I read accordingly unless it is obvious that I shouldn't.

 

[Eli G]

I think the issue is, ultimately, what we believe. But as I understand it, Jesus made it very clear when He said:

Matthew 22:32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”

For me, that pretty much clears up the question and I therefore interpret what I read accordingly unless it is obvious that I shouldn't.

Read it in context:

Matt. 22:29 In reply Jesus said to them: “You are mistaken, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God; 30 for in the resurrection neither do men marry nor are women given in marriage, but they are as angels in heaven. 31 Regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, who said: 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob’? He is the God, not of the dead, but of the living.” 33 On hearing that, the crowds were astounded at his teaching.

Jesus was not talking about inmortal souls BUT ABOUT the resurrection of the dead.

 

[nPeace]

I think the issue is, ultimately, what we believe. But as I understand it, Jesus made it very clear when He said:

Matthew 22:32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”

For me, that pretty much clears up the question and I therefore interpret what I read accordingly unless it is obvious that I shouldn't.

Do you think the scriptures harmonize, and do not contradict one against the other?

 

[Trailblazer]

True Christians. The pattern of the early Christians in the first century, is where Jehovah's Witnesses fit.
They fit into the folds mentioned at John 10:16

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

If the JWs were in the fold from the very beginning they would not have to be 'brought into' that fold.

In that verse Jesus was referring to what will happen when Christ returns. The one fold refers to the oneness of humanity that Baha'u'llah came to bring and the one shepherd was Baha'u'llah.

 

[Kenny]

Do you think the scriptures harmonize, and do not contradict one against the other?

Yes, I believe they harmonize but one has to dig to find the harmony. A cursory look will make one think they don't.

 

[nPeace]

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

If the JWs were in the fold from the very beginning they would not have to be 'brought into' that fold.

In that verse Jesus was referring to what will happen when Christ returns. The one fold refers to the oneness of humanity that Baha'u'llah came to bring and the one shepherd was Baha'u'llah.

That's your belief. That's not what the scriptures refer to.

 

[nPeace]

Yes, I believe they harmonize but one has to dig to find the harmony. A cursory look will make one think they don't.

Okay. Fine.
Tell me what is the condition of the dead... using scripture.

 

[Kenny]

Read it in context:

Matt. 22:29 In reply Jesus said to them: “You are mistaken, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God; 30 for in the resurrection neither do men marry nor are women given in marriage, but they are as angels in heaven. 31 Regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, who said: 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob’? He is the God, not of the dead, but of the living.” 33 On hearing that, the crowds were astounded at his teaching.

Jesus was not talking about inmortal souls BUT ABOUT the resurrection of the dead.

And yet it mentions that they are living.

Rev. 9 says they are living.

Transfiguration says they are living

Abraham's Bosom (paradise) says they are living

Jesus said to the thief, "Today you will be with me in Paradise" (can't do that if you are dead)

But there is a resurrection where we will receive a new body

 

[YoursTrue]

I'm sure you can find someone in any part of a spectrum so I'm sure that there would be some who do. But that isn't the only example. Rev. 6:9-11 speaks of another group that are physically dead but yet alive spiritually.

OK, but the fact is that the Bible says when we die, we die, and the dead WILL BE resurrected in time. Yes, there are other allusions to being dead or alive. The transfiguration, however, was a vision, confirming the glory that God bestowed upon Jesus. How wonderful! Luke 9 has an apt description of what happened.