Where are the Dead?

[Sgt. Pepper]

I have mixed feelings about the Bible. I like a lot of Bible verses but some I don't care for or believe are true. Stay tuned, because shortly I am going to post a new thread that gives an example of verses I don't believe are true.

I didn't have very profound, conflicting sentiments about the Bible for years when I was still a Christian until I started studying it and Christian theology in depth. That, paired with my personal experiences as a psychic medium and paranormal investigator, pretty much put the final nail in the coffin for me.

My personal encounters with human spirits were in direct conflict with what the Bible taught about death and the afterlife. To continue to believe what the Bible taught about the afterlife would have been intellectually dishonest, in my opinion. After extensively studying the Bible, I can't believe that it is true.

 

[Trailblazer]

I didn't have very profound, conflicting sentiments about the Bible for years when I was still a Christian until I started studying it and Christian theology in depth. That, paired with my personal experiences as a psychic medium and paranormal investigator, pretty much put the final nail in the coffin for me.

My personal encounters with human spirits were in direct conflict with what the Bible taught about death and the afterlife. To continue to believe what the Bible taught about the afterlife would have been intellectually dishonest, in my opinion. After extensively studying the Bible, I can't believe that it is true.

Regarding the afterlife, I believe there is truth in the Bible, but not everything in the Bible is true, and what is true has been misinterpreted by Christians.

 

[YoursTrue]

A person is free to give either their opinion on the Bible(if relevant to the thread) or their thoughts on death/the afterlife(if relevant to the thread), so long as it is presented as personal worldview and not concrete fact, in this forum.

Ok. So essentially the subject as to where a person thinks the dead are doesn't have to be part of a response, if I understand that correctly. In other words if a person says "the Bible says the dead are not alive," a person may say, the Bible is an outdated book and say nothing more as to where they think the dead are, is that right? Thank you for your respectful replies, by the way. This should be my last response about this on this thread. You're the moderator and I am not.

 

[YoursTrue]

I didn't have very profound, conflicting sentiments about the Bible for years when I was still a Christian until I started studying it and Christian theology in depth. That, paired with my personal experiences as a psychic medium and paranormal investigator, pretty much put the final nail in the coffin for me.

My personal encounters with human spirits were in direct conflict with what the Bible taught about death and the afterlife. To continue to believe what the Bible taught about the afterlife would have been intellectually dishonest, in my opinion. After extensively studying the Bible, I can't believe that it is true.

Shudder. Lol..

 

[YoursTrue]

I didn't have very profound, conflicting sentiments about the Bible for years when I was still a Christian until I started studying it and Christian theology in depth. That, paired with my personal experiences as a psychic medium and paranormal investigator, pretty much put the final nail in the coffin for me.

My personal encounters with human spirits were in direct conflict with what the Bible taught about death and the afterlife. To continue to believe what the Bible taught about the afterlife would have been intellectually dishonest, in my opinion. After extensively studying the Bible, I can't believe that it is true.

There's something I didn't tell you, Sargent. I was involved in spiritism before I studied the Bible and learned its message. I am glad I gave it all up. No need to go over it. God, the true one, the Father of Jesus and the author of life has set me free and I no longer contact spirit persons as the living dead ones. They can pretend. Bye.

 

[JustGeorge]

Ok. So essentially the subject as to where a person thinks the dead are doesn't have to be part of a response, if I understand that correctly. In other words if a person says "the Bible says the dead are not alive," a person may say, the Bible is an outdated book and say nothing more as to where they think the dead are, is that right?

As long as the person presents that they feel the Bible is an outdated book(etc, etc), they can say it. A problem only occurs if they present it as fact.

Thank you for your respectful replies, by the way.

You're most welcome.

 

[Kenny]

I hope you don't mind my candor.
The page starts with a presupposition - that the word hell is actually a Biblical word, when it isn't.
If you ask someone to define the word hell you will hear a variety of definitions.
It then uses that presupposition to make a statement that is not true.
The Bible uses words Hades, Sheol, and even Gehenna when referring to hell.
They did get something partially correct, but they did not go back far enough.
What is hell?
Webster’s Third New International Dictionary, unabridged, under “Hell” says: “fr[om] . . . helan to conceal.” The word “hell” thus originally conveyed no thought of heat or torment but simply of a ‘covered over or concealed place.’ In the old English dialect the expression “helling potatoes” meant, not to roast them, but simply to place the potatoes in the ground or in a cellar.

The meaning given today to the word “hell” is that portrayed in Dante’s Divine Comedy and Milton’s Paradise Lost, which meaning is completely foreign to the original definition of the word. The idea of a “hell” of fiery torment, however, dates back long before Dante or Milton. The Grolier Universal Encyclopedia (1971, Vol. 9, p. 205) under “Hell” says: “Hindus and Buddhists regard hell as a place of spiritual cleansing and final restoration. Islamic tradition considers it as a place of everlasting punishment.” The idea of suffering after death is found among the pagan religious teachings of ancient peoples in Babylon and Egypt. Babylonian and Assyrian beliefs depicted the “nether world . . . as a place full of horrors, . . . presided over by gods and demons of great strength and fierceness.” Although ancient Egyptian religious texts do not teach that the burning of any individual victim would go on forever, they do portray the “Other World” as featuring “pits of fire” for “the damned.”—The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria, by Morris Jastrow, Jr., 1898, p. 581; The Book of the Dead, with introduction by E. Wallis Budge, 1960, pp. 135, 144, 149, 151, 153, 161, 200.

The following statements are false Ken
How does the Bible define hell?The Bible uses the word hell 54 times throughout the Old and New Testaments (KJV).
It would have been more accurate to say, The KJV translation of the Bible defines hell... although that is neither Hebrew, Aramaic, nor Greek.
This is not a study of the Bible Ken. This is a study of a theologian.
Consider the next false premise...
Can the word hell simply mean the grave?
Shouldn't that be, Can the word Sheol/Hades simply mean the grave?
The answer is Yes.
Most translators of the Bible recognize that.
Even your definition acknowledges it.

I think it's important to start with the Bible rather than a belief. What do you think.
The words are Hebrew Sheol; Greek Hades.
I'll wait for your response to my earlier questions. Let's see where it takes us.

We could go back and forth, but I'm pretty sure we are both entrenched in our believes.

In the Greek, wives and woman are exactly the same word but are applied differently in usage. The same for Sheol. It can be applied in two different aspects.

So grave, when it is the grave for the body, and Sheol when it is the location for the soul/spirit until they receive a new body.

Did Jesus give us a better understanding of the word of God? Yes.
Did Jesus correct what the Pharisees believed? Yes.
Did He share all revelations? No

So to relegate the understanding of the New Testament without the understanding that Jesus gave would be wrong.

And, to this date, other that "it is a parable because I said so" is the most that has been offered to me. For me, I don't have to do verse pushups to make it fit. It just flows easier and it is understandable for me.

Isaiah 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth upthe dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.​

This definitely isn't a grave that is moving.

Revelation speak of souls that are living and speaking.

So, for me, it is easier to understand.

 

[Kenny]

Can you show me scripture for that please. Thanks.

Ephesians 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered for sins once for all time, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which He also went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison, (where is the prison that these spirits are in?)

Matthew 12:40 for just as Jonah was in the stomach of the sea monster for three days and three nights, so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights. (A grave is not the heart of the earth)

Acts 2:31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither abandoned to Hades(His spirit/soul), nor did His flesh suffer decay.(his body)​

​​​

 

[nPeace]

We could go back and forth, but I'm pretty sure we are both entrenched in our believes.

In the Greek, wives and woman are exactly the same word but are applied differently in usage. The same for Sheol. It can be applied in two different aspects.

So grave, when it is the grave for the body, and Sheol when it is the location for the soul/spirit until they receive a new body.

Did Jesus give us a better understanding of the word of God? Yes.
Did Jesus correct what the Pharisees believed? Yes.
Did He share all revelations? No

So to relegate the understanding of the New Testament without the understanding that Jesus gave would be wrong.

And, to this date, other that "it is a parable because I said so" is the most that has been offered to me. For me, I don't have to do verse pushups to make it fit. It just flows easier and it is understandable for me.

Isaiah 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth upthe dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.​

This definitely isn't a grave that is moving.

Revelation speak of souls that are living and speaking.

So, for me, it is easier to understand.

Ah. I understand how you are seeing it.
Hmm.
Does hell also collect gray hairs? ...let his gray hairs go down in peace to Sheʹol.
Do you agree with Solomon? (Ecclesiastes 9:10) . . .All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheʹol, the place to which you are going.

 

[nPeace]

Ephesians 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)​

​

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered for sins once for all time, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which He also went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison, (where is the prison that these spirits are in?)​

Are you asking where is the prison that the spirits are in?
Peter says Tartarus

2 Peter 2:4 - Deliverance from False Prophets

For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them deep into hell, placing them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;

biblehub.com

James says

Jude 1:6 - God's Judgment on the Ungodly

And the angels who did not stay within their own domain but abandoned their proper dwelling--these He has kept in eternal chains under darkness, bound for judgment on that great day.

biblehub.com

Jesus does not tell us where this prison is, because it's not a place you know.

Luke 8:31 - The Demons and the Pigs

And the demons kept begging Jesus not to order them to go into the Abyss.

biblehub.com

Revelation 20:3 - Satan Bound

And he threw him into the Abyss, shut it, and sealed it over him, so that he could not deceive the nations until the thousand years were complete. After that, he must be released for a brief period of time.

biblehub.com

Matthew 12:40 for just as Jonah was in the stomach of the sea monster for three days and three nights, so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights. (A grave is not the heart of the earth)​

Heart of Earth's inner core revealed.
Earth's core far hotter than thought

Are you of the view that this is where Jacobs gray hairs went, and Jesus?

Do you suppose Jonah traveled there, and then back to the fishes belly?
Out of the belly of Sheol, I cried. Please explain.

Acts 2:31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither abandoned to Hades(His spirit/soul), nor did His flesh suffer decay.(his body)​

Can you please show me where the Bible says his spirit/soul went to Hades?
Acts 2:31... I am looking, but I see nothing even remotely close to that.

 

[Quagmire]

***Mod Post***

Everyone please be mindful of rule 8:

8. Preaching/Proselytizing
Creating (or linking to) content intended to convert/recruit others to your religion, spirituality, sect/denomination, or lack thereof is not permitted. Similarly, attempting to convert others away from their religion, spiritual convictions, or sect/denomination will also be considered a form of preaching. Stating opinions as a definitive matter of fact (i.e., without "I believe/feel/think" language, and/or without references) may be moderated as preaching

 

[Kenny]

In your personal opinion, of course, which appears to be based on your Christian beliefs. In my opinion, however, it's very arrogant to state "no man comes to the Father but through Jesus" or "all people are sinners in need of a savior" as a definitive fact or imply that it is a definitive fact rather than a belief that is based on a preferred interpretation of the Bible and Christian theology. For instance, Baha'is (like @Trailblazer and @Truthseeker) believe that they are able to come to God through Baha'u'llah, whom they believe to be a Messenger of God, but they don't believe he is the only way to God. As far as I'm concerned, they have as much right to practice their religion as Christians do, and their voice matters in this thread and in all other religious discussions.

Yes... Jesus did have that type of effect on people.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Hm. It doesn't seem to violate rule 8, but the worthless part seems unnecessarily derogatory. I can't imagine why someone would call someone else's scriptures worthless in a civil debate(even if they don't prefer or follow said scripture themselves).

Just my two cents.

I can see that now and perhaps should have chosen another word to use.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Regarding the afterlife, I believe there is truth in the Bible, but not everything in the Bible is true, and what is true has been misinterpreted by Christians.

I don't know if the Bible's teachings on the afterlife were misinterpreted by the spirits of the Christians I've encountered or not, but I do know that, in my experience, these spirits were very confused about what was happening to them, so I had to explain it to them. I could see that most of them were afraid, but others were angry and stated that they felt betrayed by what they had been taught either by their parents, other Christians, or in church. I know other mediums who have had similar encounters with these spirits as well. It appears to be a real problem with many of the new earthbound spirits of Christians.

 

[JustGeorge]

I'd like to say that some of the responses to my posts and to Trailblazer haven't always been civil. However, I've decided that mainly responding to her is what I need to do from now on in order to avoid any more drama and stress from participating in this thread. It is a very interesting topic, in my opinion.

Unfortunately, sometimes debates where emotions run high churns out some uncivil responses. Sometimes it is indeed more worthwhile simply not to respond to things you find toxic.

And as always, if you feel a post has crossed a line and broken a rule, know you can report it.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Unfortunately, sometimes debates where emotions run high churns out some uncivil responses. Sometimes it is indeed more worthwhile simply not to respond to things you find toxic.

And as always, if you feel a post has crossed a line and broken a rule, know you can report it.

I decided to delete the post you replied to because I didn't know if I should say anything or not, but I'm glad you replied to my post anyway.

I'd like to say that some of the responses to my posts and to Trailblazer haven't always been civil. However, I've decided that mainly responding to her is what I need to do from now on in order to avoid any more drama and stress from participating in this thread. It is a very interesting topic, in my opinion.

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes... Jesus did have that type of effect on people.

I might add that many reacted negatively and when he was on trial, Pontius Pilate didn't really want to put him to death but he gave in to the crowd.

 

[YoursTrue]

I don't know if the Bible's teachings on the afterlife were misinterpreted by the spirits of the Christians I've encountered or not, but I do know that, in my experience, these spirits were very confused about what was happening to them, so I had to explain it to them. I could see that most of them were afraid, but others were angry and stated that they felt betrayed by what they had been taught either by their parents, other Christians, or in church. I know other mediums who have had similar encounters with these spirits as well. It appears to be a real problem with many of the new earthbound spirits of Christians.

Oh boy...

 

[YoursTrue]

Isn't it interesting that there is so much difference between people about what happens when a person dies? I think so. It's kind of hard to reckon with, but way before I knew what the Bible said I figured when you're dead you're dead. That's me. I didn't experiment with things until I was older. I am so glad I learned what the Bible says from those I believe are led by holy spirit . I realize this is not everyone's belief, just stating my understanding of things.

 

[Aupmanyav]

What would I know if I used logic?

Beautiful. I think you should have that as your signature. Allow me to use this as my signature.