Where are the Dead?

[Trailblazer]

What you said you have.

The Works of Bahá'u'lláh

 

[Kenny]

Yes... that is a problem.

If the differences are foundational to the belief. Otherwise different Christian groups can be considered as flavors of ice cream. At the core we can be the same but look very different.

So true! Like a three bedroom to bath house, no matter how you split the house or how you decorate it on the inside, as long as the foundation is square, you have a good house.

To me it seems like it is the non-Christians that make a big deal out of what most Christian don’t.

 

[Trailblazer]

Right so all you can provide... by your own words... is your opinion.

That's true, since no religion is subject to proof. We can only believe it is true.

 

[dwb001]

N

You sure nipped that one in the bud.

Nope... I had a response at the ready.
Not a preformulated response.
Just a response from knowing my own motivations.

 

[dwb001]

The Works of Bahá'u'lláh

I asked for your response not a cut and paste...

I consider that a failure to respond as requested. So what do you have to offer other than opinion and links to things?

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

I have more than one text to back me up, not just one.
The texts I have were actually written in the Pen of a Prophet, you have no such texts.

I think that you are better educated in your beliefs than the vast majority of Christians that I've met during my lifetime are in theirs. I admire you for that. The truth is that Christianity has many conflicting beliefs that contradict one another, such as conditional salvation vs. unconditional salvation, the proper baptism (sprinkled with water vs. fully immersed), female pastors, and the "end-times" (the rapture, pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation, and post-tribulation).

It's obvious that Christians aren't united, and they never have been. The majority of them have the perpetual habit of accusing other Christians of not being "true Christians," and this accusation is as old as Christianity itself (read 1 Corinthians 1:10–17). The problem I have with Christians accusing other Christians of not being true followers of Jesus is that they can never agree on what the Bible truly says, and they constantly argue, insult, and fight one another about what they believe the Bible teaches. The truth is that if you ask the same theological question to a broad group of Christians, you will receive very different answers. All of these Christians will cite the Bible in an attempt to defend their answers, even though their answers are very different and contradictory.

It is also worth noting that they don't agree on whether salvation in Jesus Christ is unconditional or not, although they all read the Bible. Some Christians claim that a person's salvation is conditional, and they would quote a few scriptures they believed supported their belief. Some Christians claim that a person's salvation is unconditional, and they would quote a few scriptures they believed supported their belief. Yet other Christians claim that baptism or speaking in tongues is required for salvation, and they would quote a few scriptures they believed supported their belief. They contradict each other.

Questions about how to properly baptize believers (fully immersed in water or sprinkled with water), whether it is biblical for women to be pastors, and about the alleged end times (pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation, post-tribulation, and the rapture of Christians) would elicit the same kind of derision among Christians. Not to mention the churches staking their claim as the "true church" and implying that Christians in other churches are wrong in their theology and biblical interpretation. They even argue about whether Jesus' mother remained a virgin after giving birth to him or if she had other children after him.

The truth is that Christians are very divided, intentionally separate themselves into different churches, and adhere to different doctrines and scriptural interpretations, which have occurred in both historical and contemporary Christianity. Catholics and Protestants have different church doctrines, dogmas, and interpretations of the Bible. So do Mormons (LDS), Jehovah's Witnesses, Messianic Jews, and Orthodox Christians, which include Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Ethiopian Orthodox, and Greek Orthodox. Also, there are Baptists (First Baptist, Second Baptist, Southern Baptist, Reformed Baptist, Primitive Baptist, Anabaptist, Freewill Baptist, and others), Methodists, Mennonites, Seventh-day Adventists, Assemblies of God, Apostolic Church, Quakers, Pentecostals, Church of God, and many other various churches that aren't on the list. In fact, the precise number of Christian denominations is debatable.

Ironically, they all believe that they are correct about their beliefs and everyone else (including other Christians) is wrong about theirs, but then they have the audacity to claim that the Bible is the word of God and Christianity is the only true religion in the world. In my opinion, there's no reason to believe any of them. I think it's unreasonable for any Christian to claim that their biblical interpretation and theology are correct while insisting that other Christians are wrong, that the Bible is divinely inspired, and that Christianity is the only true religion in the world. It is also irrational, in my opinion, that Christians seem to expect non-Christians to accept the Bible as divinely inspired and the final authority on moral issues, yet they can't agree on what the Bible says.

 

[Trailblazer]

I asked for your response not a cut and paste...

I consider that a failure to respond as requested. So what do you have to offer other than opinion and links to things?

I have more than one text to back me up, not just one.
The texts I have were actually written in the Pen of a Prophet, you have no such texts.

And you have not provided that here.

You asked for the texts so I provided them.

The Works of Bahá'u'lláh

 

[wellwisher]

Are the dead alive somewhere?
Can the dead interact with the living... or dead?
Is there any hope for the dead... can the dead live again?

Some scriptures I found answers these questions...

Spoiler: Scriptures

Genesis 3:19) In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”

(Psalm 104:29) When you hide your face, they are disturbed. If you take away their spirit, they die and return to the dust.
(Psalm 146:3, 4) 3 Do not put your trust in princes Nor in a son of man, who cannot bring salvation. 4 His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish.
(Ecclesiastes 3:20) All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust.

(Ecclesiastes 9:4-10) 4 There is hope for whoever is among the living, because a live dog is better off than a dead lion. 5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun. ... 10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, where you are going.

(Ecclesiastes 12:7) Then the dust returns to the earth, just as it was, and the spirit returns to the true God who gave it.

(Isaiah 26:19) “Your dead will live. My corpses will rise up. Awake and shout joyfully, You residents in the dust! For your dew is as the dew of the morning, And the earth will let those powerless in death come to life.

(Hosea 13:14) From the power of the Grave I will redeem them; From death I will recover them. Where are your stings, O Death? Where is your destructiveness, O Grave? Compassion will be concealed from my eyes.

(Mark 12:26) But concerning the dead being raised up, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account about the thornbush, that God said to him: ‘I am the God of Abraham and God of Isaac and God of Jacob’?

(John 5:28, 29) 28 Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.

(John 11:24, 25) 24 Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life;

(Acts 24:15) And I have hope toward God, which hope these men also look forward to, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.

(1 Corinthians 15:21) For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man.

Basically, those scriptures tell us

• the dead are not alive anywhere... except in God's memory. Luke 20:38
• the dead cannot communicate with either the living, or the dead. They cannot do anything. They are inactive - in the powerful grip of death.
• the dead can... will live again, by means of a resurrection, which God promises, and is both willing and able to carry out.

On examining these scriptures, do you agree this is what we find?

The Second Law of Thermodynamics states that the state of entropy of the entire universe, as an isolated system, will always increase over time. The second law also states that the changes in the entropy in the universe can never be negative.

Since an entropy increase lowers free energy via the equation (G=H-TS), where S is entropy, the second law also implies that the free energy of the universe decreases over time, due to the 2nd law; universe forever increases entropy and decrease free energy.

Energy Conservation implies this lost free energy, due to the vector of the universal entropy increase, should be conserved, but not in a way that is net recyclable to the universe, or else that would violate the second law and cause entropy to net decrease. That is not allowed. The second law sort of implies there is sort of a parallel dimension, within the universe, maybe at the quantum state, that contains this lost but conserved energy, that is no longer useful to the material universe. But it is connected to the history of the universe's increasing entropy; information based history.

Life and consciouses via the body and brain generated a lot of entropy increase. Life is an entropy increasing state that can increase the complexity of nature much more than inanimate matter. Metabolism alone accounts for much of this. Relative to the brain and its generation of entropy connected to consciousness, the above logic implies that the universe sort of has an entropic memory of each us, within this conserved energy. Our bodies die and atoms recycle, but our entropy signatures are conserved; eternal soul???

The assembly of this entropic memory within the conserved energy realm appears to require further processing before. We sleep until the soul is reassembled, then we arise in paradise or the other place, based on your collected data. The book of life would be the entropy based memories of the 2nd law, from which St Peter decides with door each will enter.

Note: Entropy is a state variable, meaning any given state of matter has a fix value of entropy. For example, water at 25C and 1 atmosphere of pressure has an entropy value of 188.8 Joules/(mole K). I can heat water to boiling and then cool it back to that 25C state and we will measure the same entropy value 188.8 Joules/(mole K). The value is like a tag connected to a distinct state matter, like each of us. Albeit we are much more complicated, but we are made of matter and express entropy. Based on the entropy energy signature of change over time, one could be reconstructed and extrapolated.

 

[nPeace]

There are many examples of spirit communication.

This is true.
Many are in the Bible.
For example...
(1 Samuel 28:6-14) 6 Although Saul would inquire of Jehovah, Jehovah never answered him, either in dreams or by the Uʹrim or through the prophets. 7 Finally Saul said to his servants: “Find me a woman who is a spirit medium, and I will go and consult her.” His servants replied: “Look! There is a woman who is a spirit medium in En-dor.” 8 So Saul disguised himself and put on other garments and went to the woman by night with two of his men. He said: “Use divination, please, by acting as a spirit medium, and bring up for me the one whom I designate to you.” 9 However, the woman said to him: “You must know what Saul did, how he removed the spirit mediums and the fortune-tellers from the land. Why, then, are you trying to trap me to have me put to death?” 10 Saul then swore to her by Jehovah, saying: “As surely as Jehovah is alive, you will not incur any guilt in this matter!” 11 At this the woman said: “Whom should I bring up for you?” He replied: “Bring up Samuel for me.” 12 When the woman saw “Samuel,” she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul: “Why did you trick me? You are Saul!” 13 The king said to her: “Do not be afraid, but what do you see?” The woman replied to Saul: “I see one like a god coming up out of the earth.” 14 At once he asked her: “What does he look like?” to which she said: “It is an old man coming up, and he is clothed in a sleeveless coat.” At that Saul realized that it was “Samuel,” and he bowed low with his face to the ground and prostrated himself.

Hence...
(1 Chronicles 10:13, 14) 13 Thus Saul died for the unfaithfulness he had shown against Jehovah because he had not obeyed the word of Jehovah, also for consulting a spirit medium 14 instead of inquiring of Jehovah. So He put him to death and turned the kingship over to David the son of Jesʹse.

(Deuteronomy 18:10-12) 10 There should not be found in you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, anyone who employs divination, anyone practicing magic, anyone who looks for omens, a sorcerer, 11 anyone binding others with a spell, anyone who consults a spirit medium or a fortune-teller, or anyone who inquires of the dead. 12 For whoever does these things is detestable to Jehovah, and on account of these detestable practices Jehovah your God is driving them away from before you.

Do the research.

Thanks to Jehovah, I was able to do that... from a pure source, of course.

Do not refer to the Bible which was super edited to control the masses.

The Bible has proven reliable.
Not so, anyone who just makes claims on the internet.
It doesn't make sense to listen to persons, who are clearly under demonic and Satanic control.
I'd rather the Bible be my guide. It exposes the guys who discourages using God's word. In a lair of Satan, you'd better hold on to the Bible.

 

[YoursTrue]

Jesus didn't say it was an illustration. Why do you not trust the word of Jesus.

Wikipedia does not replace the Bible.

I realize that's how some people think. That Jesus didn't say it was an illustration. So therefore it was not in their minds. I guess you have to figure Jesus could see it in heaven or wherever the poor man was in Abraham's bosom the conversations there between Abraham's bosom and a rather hot place.

 

[dwb001]

I realize that's how some people think. That Jesus didn't say it was an illustration. So therefore it was not in their minds. I guess you have to figure Jesus could see it in heaven or wherever the poor man was in Abraham's bosom the conversations there between Abraham's bosom and a rather hot place.

I don't believe that Jesus ever taught things He didn't see. Others called them parables. Jesus never said "and now I will tell you a story..."

 

[nPeace]

Jesus didn't say it was an illustration.

That's not a valid reason to say it is not an illustration, or parable.
There are several illustrations, or parable which Jesus did not say were parables, but we know they were. All recounted by Luke. Including the Prodigal son.

Why do you not trust the word of Jesus.

We do. That's how we know, the dead cannot communicate.
(Ecclesiastes 9:5) . . .the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all,. . .
(Ecclesiastes 9:10) . . .there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, where you are going. . .
(Psalm 115:17) The dead do not praise Jah; Nor do any who go down into the silence of death.
(Psalm 146:4) His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish.

Why don't you trust what is here, taken from God's word?
Did Jesus not agree with these verses, when he said... “Lazʹa·rus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.” (John 11:11)

Wikipedia does not replace the Bible.

Nothing can replace the Bible, nor disprove it.

 

[nPeace]

Only if I am wrong. Otherwise it is the truth with grace for the opposition.

You are agreeing it was an arrogant response then. They might ask you to apologize.

 

[dwb001]

That's not a valid reason to say it is not an illustration, or parable.
There are several illustrations, or parable which Jesus did not say were parables, but we know they were. All recounted by Luke. Including the Prodigal son.

That would be a very valid reason in my opinion. Jesus never said He was making stuff up... but He easily could be recounting things the He saw around Him.

We do. Tha how we know, the dead cannot communicate.
(Ecclesiastes 9:5) . . .the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all,. . .
(Ecclesiastes 9:10) . . .there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, where you are going. . .
(Psalm 115:17) The dead do not praise Jah; Nor do any who go down into the silence of death.
(Psalm 146:4) His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish.

None of those references are words from God. Those are words of man and Luke 16 says there is no way back from their side to the mortal realm..

God can bridge that gap... but the dead can not.

Why don't you trust what is here, taken from God's word?
Did Jesus not agree with these verses, when he said... “Lazʹa·rus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.” (John 11:11)

The Creator was changing the natural courae of His creation. No agreement or disagreement with any verses. I dont follow your reasoning.

Nothing can replace the Bible, nor disprove it.

So why not believe what Jesus said death was like in Luke? Why argue if you say the Bible is correct... that is the point I am making.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't believe that Jesus ever taught things He didn't see. Others called them parables. Jesus never said "and now I will tell you a story..."

Jesus did not have to say that but most people know that they are stories called parables. Most Christians even know that.

Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.” Matthew 17:20-21

Do you think that Jesus saw mountains moving?

 

[dwb001]

Jesus did not have to say that but most people know that they are stories called parables. Most Christians even know that.

Know or believe?

Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.” Matthew 17:20-21

Do you think that Jesus saw mountains moving?

Yes. He moved them during the flood.

 

[Trailblazer]

Know or believe?

Believe.

Yes. He moved them during the flood.

Do you know that or do you only believe that?

 

[dwb001]

Believe.

Then why.did you lie and use the word know in your post?

Do you know that or do you only believe that?

Know... Bible says so.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Jesus did not have to say that but most people know that they are stories called parables. Most Christians even know that

There are Christians who believe the stories about a talking serpent and donkey and a man who allegedly survived in the belly of a big fish for three days.

 

[dwb001]

There are Christians who believe the stories about a talking serpent and donkey and a man who allegedly survived in the belly of a big fish for three days.

All true. Not stories. History.