Where are the Dead?

[dwb001]

God made everything. Jesus did not make anything.

Same being. But you don't believe that. Bit that is what the book says.

I am very responsible but I am not responsible for anything that happened in the past, or responsible to know what happened in the past. If people enjoy studying history that is their choice, but it is not of much interest to me because there is too much going on in the present that requires my attention.

Your personal actions are in the past and you dismiss it. Therefore you are not responsible for your own past actions.

There is no fluff in it. It was written by a Messenger of God. Nothing He wrote is fluff, unlike the Bible, which is a lot of fluff.
The fluff to substance ratio in the Bible is about 80:20.

nope... some loonies probably wrote it. My personal opinion but still my opinion. And not relevant in a forum for Biblical discussion

n't care if anyone agrees with me. When I need to pull up non-biblical sources to make my point I will.

Your choice to weaken your argument any time you want.

 

[dwb001]

Very good. I sometimes do the same. I did a little research on Luke 16 with the story about the rich man and Lazarus. I looked at various translations at www.bible.cc and learned something I never really paid too much attention to before. At the top of the chapter in many of the translations there is the heading before verse 1 about parable. But I'm wondering, is that in the text? Seems not so, because not every Bible, including that of the King James Bible has the word parable heading up the scriptures. I'll just stop there for the moment. I figure therefore that the description in many translations saying "parable" before the account is inserted.

Chapter headings are not part of the original scripts... neither are chapter and verse breaks.

We insert a lot of things to help direct traffic as it were... sometimes these helps start to hurt the text.

 

[YoursTrue]

Chapter headings are not part of the original scripts... neither are chapter and verse breaks.

We insert a lot of things to help direct traffic as it were... sometimes these helps start to hurt the text.

Hi. I figured that as I was reading the various versions of Luke 16. Thanks for calling it to my attention in a way. I appreciated looking it up. And do you know that the online King James Version has the heading that the story about the rich man and Lazarus is headed as -- guess what? Luke 16 KJV

 

[nPeace]

Then why is someone else's opinion valid to say that they are not factual?

Someone else's opinion??? What do you mean?

Yes it does change things in this case.
it changes from a moral lesson to an observation of the afterlife. Those things are very different in significant ways.

That change can be happening in one's mind, and may seem very clear. while nothing has changed.

That is Matthew's opinion. Jesus did not say He was using illustrations... Mathew did.

What Matthew wrote in the Gospel of Matthew does not contain what Jesus said and did?
Then why did you say this...

Luke 16 would show that the dead can talk to each other and are conscious.​

Luke reporting the words of Jesus.​

If it's Luke's opinion, and Matthew's opinion?
I see. you are strongly opinionated, I'm not sure that works very well with humility. What is your opinion on that?

Do you see how that changes things?

Of course. It's hard to miss someone treating God's word so vile. Is that what you are doing, because the Pharisees didn't use villainy to such a level, and people saw it.

Not Jesus saying those things. Mathew's commentary.

How do you know that Jesus was referring to the same passages you are?

You wouldn't oust the passages you choose not to accept, simply because you don't like them, would you?

Why are tou conflating false religionwith sexual immorality? Beware of Rev 22:18-19

Injustice and sexual immoralitydo not equate with false religion.

The references you provided appear to be just as i have said.

So there is a physical place called hell and another called death that are side by side with a chasm between. A real litteral place.

Is that why the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them... And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire?

Nope... a truth is... here is the reference and what it says. Not fighting words as you have used above.

So, would you say you aren't presenting truth, but arguing?
I don't believe that Jesus ever taught things He didn't see.
None of those references are words from God.
That is Matthew's opinion.

 

[nPeace]

No. For Bible reading I will use almost every version and compare. If there is a question I go to the original language.

Sounds good to me.

As for other things I am a Asimov fan and a Pratchett fan.

You like fiction. Any particular reason?
I haven't read any novel since 1990. I like researching facts.
It's good you like reading though. The younger generation don't like reading much.

 

[YoursTrue]

Sounds good to me.


You like fiction. Any particular reason?
I haven't read any novel since 1990. I like researching facts.
It's good you like reading though. The younger generation don't like reading much.

I read a couple of things (not fiction, though) by Asimov, and must say I was impressed by his honesty, even though he does not agree with the Bible. I look forward to meeting with him if it is God's will during the resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous.

 

[YoursTrue]

Chapter headings are not part of the original scripts... neither are chapter and verse breaks.

We insert a lot of things to help direct traffic as it were... sometimes these helps start to hurt the text.

So...since we agree that there were no chapter or paragraph headings in the original manuscripts, it would be up to the reader or editor to decide what is a parable, wouldn't it? Some Bibles say parable and others do not. Interesting, right? I think so.

 

[David1967]

Are the dead alive somewhere?
Can the dead interact with the living... or dead?
Is there any hope for the dead... can the dead live again?

Some scriptures I found answers these questions...

Spoiler: Scriptures

Genesis 3:19) In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”

(Psalm 104:29) When you hide your face, they are disturbed. If you take away their spirit, they die and return to the dust.
(Psalm 146:3, 4) 3 Do not put your trust in princes Nor in a son of man, who cannot bring salvation. 4 His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish.
(Ecclesiastes 3:20) All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust.

(Ecclesiastes 9:4-10) 4 There is hope for whoever is among the living, because a live dog is better off than a dead lion. 5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun. ... 10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, where you are going.

(Ecclesiastes 12:7) Then the dust returns to the earth, just as it was, and the spirit returns to the true God who gave it.

(Isaiah 26:19) “Your dead will live. My corpses will rise up. Awake and shout joyfully, You residents in the dust! For your dew is as the dew of the morning, And the earth will let those powerless in death come to life.

(Hosea 13:14) From the power of the Grave I will redeem them; From death I will recover them. Where are your stings, O Death? Where is your destructiveness, O Grave? Compassion will be concealed from my eyes.

(Mark 12:26) But concerning the dead being raised up, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account about the thornbush, that God said to him: ‘I am the God of Abraham and God of Isaac and God of Jacob’?

(John 5:28, 29) 28 Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.

(John 11:24, 25) 24 Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life;

(Acts 24:15) And I have hope toward God, which hope these men also look forward to, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.

(1 Corinthians 15:21) For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man.

Basically, those scriptures tell us

• the dead are not alive anywhere... except in God's memory. Luke 20:38
• the dead cannot communicate with either the living, or the dead. They cannot do anything. They are inactive - in the powerful grip of death.
• the dead can... will live again, by means of a resurrection, which God promises, and is both willing and able to carry out.

On examining these scriptures, do you agree this is what we find?

I could just repeat the line from the religion I grew up in, but that would be disingenuous. So what do I think about this, as in my gut feeling? I think we go on and after death there is some form of consciousness. Hopefully in a good way. If by chance there is nothing, then I don't care, as I wouldn't be here or there anyway.

 

[YoursTrue]

Someone else's opinion??? What do you mean?


That change can be happening in one's mind, and may seem very clear. while nothing has changed.



What Matthew wrote in the Gospel of Matthew does not contain what Jesus said and did?
Then why did you say this...

Luke 16 would show that the dead can talk to each other and are conscious.​

Luke reporting the words of Jesus.​

If it's Luke's opinion, and Matthew's opinion?
I see. you are strongly opinionated, I'm not sure that works very well with humility. What is your opinion on that?


Of course. It's hard to miss someone treating God's word so vile. Is that what you are doing, because the Pharisees didn't use villainy to such a level, and people saw it.


You wouldn't oust the passages you choose not to accept, simply because you don't like them, would you?



Is that why the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them... And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire?


So, would you say you aren't presenting truth, but arguing?
I don't believe that Jesus ever taught things He didn't see.
None of those references are words from God.
That is Matthew's opinion.

Just to say (also @dwb001) that Jesus knew his listeners, he knew what they were taught by their religious leaders. So when he spoke in parables or illustrations as in a scenario, they knew what he was talking about. They could apply it to their teachings and mindset. Often they didn't like it.

 

[YoursTrue]

I could just repeat the line from the religion I grew up in, but that would be disingenuous. So what do I think about this, as in my gut feeling? I think we go on and after death there is some form of consciousness. Hopefully in a good way. If by chance there is nothing, then I don't care, as I wouldn't be here or there anyway.

I had/have gut feelings too. I am glad to understand better two things since I began to really study, pray, and understand the Bible: one is the hope for the future -- namely a resurrection from the dead, and the other is that when we die, we are dead. Not living.

 

[Trailblazer]

Same being. But you don't believe that. Bit that is what the book says.

The Bible does not say that Jesus is God. Many Bible verses clearly demonstrate that Jesus is NOT God.

Jesus is not God Bible verses

In addition to all those verses, we know that many people saw Jesus and they lived, so Jesus cannot be God.

Exodus 33:20 But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.”

John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

In addition to that, God is Spirit, not flesh, according to the Bible. Jesus died on the cross because He was a mortal man. God cannot die because God is Spirit, so God is not subject to death.

In addition to that, the Bible describes God as Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, and Immaterial, and Jesus did not have any of those those attributes. That means that Jesus cannot be God.

Your personal actions are in the past and you dismiss it. Therefore you are not responsible for your own past actions.

I do not dismiss my own past or any of MY actions. I dismiss the actions of others for which I am not responsible.
What an utter waste of time to dwell on the past. The past is gone, never to be relived. The present is all we have. We can look forward to the future because it will come, but the past is gone.

nope... some loonies probably wrote it. My personal opinion but still my opinion. And not relevant in a forum for Biblical discussion

Mt belief is that it was written by a Messenger of God who was the return of Christ and the Promised One of all ages.
That is relevant to a Biblical discussion because He fulfilled all the prophecies in the Bible.

Your choice to weaken your argument any time you want.

I have no argument because I am not trying to prove anything to anyone.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

The Bible does not say that Jesus is God. Many Bible verses clearly demonstrate that Jesus is NOT God.

Jesus is not God Bible verses

In addition to all those verses, we know that many people saw Jesus and they lived, so Jesus cannot be God.

Exodus 33:20 But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.”

John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

In addition to that, God is Spirit, not flesh, according to the Bible. Jesus died on the cross because He was a mortal man. God cannot die because God is Spirit, so God is not subject to death.

In addition to that, the Bible describes God as Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, and Immaterial, and Jesus did not have any of those those attributes. That means that Jesus cannot be God.

Trinitarian Christians believe in the hypostatic union, which is the theological belief that Jesus took on human nature yet remained fully God when he lived as a man. It encapsulates the belief regarding his humanity and divinity (two natures) in a single hypostasis and is in conjunction with the Trinity doctrine.

 

[Colt]

The Bible does not say that Jesus is God. Many Bible verses clearly demonstrate that Jesus is NOT God.

Jesus is not God Bible verses

In addition to all those verses, we know that many people saw Jesus and they lived, so Jesus cannot be God.

Exodus 33:20 But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.”

John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

In addition to that, God is Spirit, not flesh, according to the Bible. Jesus died on the cross because He was a mortal man. God cannot die because God is Spirit, so God is not subject to death.

In addition to that, the Bible describes God as Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, and Immaterial, and Jesus did not have any of those those attributes. That means that Jesus cannot be God.

I do not dismiss my own past or any of MY actions. I dismiss the actions of others for which I am not responsible.
What an utter waste of time to dwell on the past. The past is gone, never to be relived. The present is all we have. We can look forward to the future because it will come, but the past is gone.

Mt belief is that it was written by a Messenger of God who was the return of Christ and the Promised One of all ages.
That is relevant to a Biblical discussion because He fulfilled all the prophecies in the Bible.

I have no argument because I am not trying to prove anything to anyone.

Can God have Sons that are subordinate deities?

 

[nPeace]

I read a couple of things (not fiction, though) by Asimov, and must say I was impressed by his honesty, even though he does not agree with the Bible. I look forward to meeting with him if it is God's will during the resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous.

You're in to fiction as well? You have something in common with @dwb001.

 

[nPeace]

I could just repeat the line from the religion I grew up in, but that would be disingenuous. So what do I think about this, as in my gut feeling? I think we go on and after death there is some form of consciousness. Hopefully in a good way. If by chance there is nothing, then I don't care, as I wouldn't be here or there anyway.

Does the Bible influence what you believe, in any way. Or do you go with what feels right to you?

 

[nPeace]

Can God have Sons that are subordinate deities?
Bible's answer -
(1 Corinthians 15:27, 28) 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

(John 14:28) . . .You heard that I said to you, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I am.

For those who believe Jesus was both God and man on earth, John 14:28, is not a well liked scripture.
For those who say Jesus is both equal to God, and God himself, both these scriptures are problematic.

 

[YoursTrue]

You're in to fiction as well? You have something in common with @dwb001.

Lol no I'm not into fiction. Asimov wrote other things.

 

[nPeace]

Lol no I'm not into fiction. Asimov wrote other things.

Best known for his hard science fiction,

Asimov also wrote mysteries and fantasy, as well as popular science and other non-fiction.
Oh.

The guy resembles Superman.

Wait. The glasses are a disguise.

Perfect match.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

I could just repeat the line from the religion I grew up in, but that would be disingenuous. So what do I think about this, as in my gut feeling? I think we go on and after death there is some form of consciousness. Hopefully in a good way. If by chance there is nothing, then I don't care, as I wouldn't be here or there anyway.

Given my past discussions with some religious people about the afterlife, I think that you're probably more accurate in your gut feelings than they are with their religious beliefs about what happens to people after death. Even those of the same religion can't agree on what happens to people after death, but they all think they're right. Of course, they're only sharing their personal beliefs about the afterlife based on their preferred version of their religion. Some religious people claim to know based on their preferred religious beliefs, church doctrines, and religious texts, but in my opinion, they're just speculating like the rest of us. I believe that none of us truly knows what will happen to us after we die. We can speculate about it all we want or base our beliefs on a holy book, but we won't know for sure until we die and cross over. The spirit world could be entirely different from what they expected. I believe the same will be true for those who don't believe in an afterlife. I'm a spiritualist, and I've wondered about what the afterlife would be like, but I can't say I know for certain. I've already shared what I believe earlier in this thread and in others. If you'd like to read the posts, just ask, and I'll provide you with some links.

 

[Colt]

Can God have Sons that are subordinate deities?
Bible's answer -
(1 Corinthians 15:27, 28) 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

(John 14:28) . . .You heard that I said to you, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I am.

For those who believe Jesus was both God and man on earth, John 14:28, is not a well liked scripture.
For those who say Jesus is both equal to God, and God himself, both these scriptures are problematic.

As a divine Son of God and creator of this world, there is no conflict between the divinity of Christ and the supremacy of the Universal Father.

The mission of the Son was to live as a human subject to the will of the Father just as man is expected to do.