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Where are the people?

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
This is part of the ongoing problem, the Baha'i expect changes to occur but don't offer any solutions to make it happen. It ain't just going to happen.

No God is known to exist, and being lazy isn't a way to achieve goals.

It's been a lot worse. The plague wiped out about a third of Europe's population. Science and medicine has helped people all over the world, and wealthy nations give a lot to the impoverished. It is getting better because there are serious people doing real work to help. Now with climate change there are more people affected by severe weather and that will absorb money.

But what do the Baha'i offer? Your religious texts? Your criticisms and complaints, expecting others to do something? I don't see the Baha'i as being sincere. Their religious beliefs offer nothing that others don't except the "unity" issue, which democratic nations work towards already. These secular nations actually have goals and work to solve problems. The Baha'i? Just complainers who are trying to get attention for themselves? I don't even see you all give credit to those who are working for peace and cooperation.

Of course the opening post mentioned gay marriage as an issue, and while not condemning it made it seem like a superficial goal for gay couples seeking equality under the law. So I'm not sure how "unity" relates to human rights issues that are limited under certain religions. To my mind religions need to reel in their beliefs where it comes to personal freedom and learn to be more tolerant. If you want unity you need to be open to diversity, and that includes Baha'i.
I see your points and I’ll try and explain. Baha’is look at the root cause of the problems and not just the symptoms because otherwise no cures will ever happen. We believe the root cause is disunity and unity and oneness can solve our problems. So if the world accepted legally that we are all citizens of planet earth with equal rights then where is war? And with an end to wars the world has $trillions and $trillions to clean the oceans, provide a universal basic wage, universal free education, universal free Medicare and world employment. But to achieve this there must be a change in mindsets everywhere. To replace the ‘us and them’ mentality with a wider loyalty to all humanity.

But evolving our mindsets to this level involves the elimination of all forms of prejudices - national, religious and racial and other profiling. only education or reeducation can have any chance of bringing about this change not treaties. A system needs to be erected on human rights and justice for all not greed and profit. It is a slow process.

So what have the Baha’is accomplished? The Baha’i World Community is the first and only world community that has ever existed in the history of the human race under a world governance. It is composed of members of all races, nationalities, faiths and cultures. It is proof that world unity can be achieved as it is comprised of a cross section of the entire human race. Humanity has never witnessed it’s like nor has it been able to achieve it’s like with disunity and conflicts arising everywhere.

So if the Baha’is can establish a unified world community under world governance why can’t the world stop fighting and get together and have peace? The one factor which the world lacks is the teachings of Baha’u’llah without which they are being swallowed and engulfed in more and more conflict and wars unable to extricate themselves from these problems and then criticising us who can do what they cannot - unite together in peace as one family.

Every system, short of the unification of the human race, has been tried, repeatedly tried, and been found wanting. Wars again and again have been fought, and conferences without number have met and deliberated. Treaties, pacts and covenants have been painstakingly negotiated, concluded and revised. Systems of government have been patiently tested, have been continually recast and superseded. Economic plans of reconstruction have been carefully devised, and meticulously executed. And yet crisis has succeeded crisis, and the rapidity with which a perilously unstable world is declining has been correspondingly accelerated.”

Shoghi Effendi
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
I see your points and I’ll try and explain. Baha’is look at the root cause of the problems and not just the symptoms because otherwise no cures will ever happen. We believe the root cause is disunity and unity and oneness can solve our problems. So if the world accepted legally that we are all citizens of planet earth with equal rights then where is war? And with an end to wars the world has $trillions and $trillions to clean the oceans, provide a universal basic wage, universal free education, universal free Medicare and world employment. But to achieve this there must be a change in mindsets everywhere. To replace the ‘us and them’ mentality with a wider loyalty to all humanity.

But evolving our mindsets to this level involves the elimination of all forms of prejudices - national, religious and racial and other profiling. only education or reeducation can have any chance of bringing about this change not treaties. A system needs to be erected on human rights and justice for all not greed and profit. It is a slow process.
This is all idealistic and overly simplistic. You offer no real solutions to the problems of human psychology.
So what have the Baha’is accomplished? The Baha’i World Community is the first and only world community that has ever existed in the history of the human race under a world governance. It is composed of members of all races, nationalities, faiths and cultures. It is proof that world unity can be achieved as it is comprised of a cross section of the entire human race. Humanity has never witnessed it’s like nor has it been able to achieve it’s like with disunity and conflicts arising everywhere.
It’s what other religions have accomplished under a banner of truth. Humanism is better as it has less ideological baggage.
So if the Baha’is can establish a unified world community under world governance why can’t the world stop fighting and get together and have peace?
Much of it is the same reason Baha’i haven’t abandoned their bias against gays, it’s part of your tradition. Until you Baha’i can eliminate your own prejudice you can’t expect others to. And appealing to a God or messenger only claims an authority no one has. This is why humanism is better.
The one factor which the world lacks is the teachings of Baha’u’llah without which they are being swallowed and engulfed in more and more conflict and wars unable to extricate themselves from these problems and then criticising us who can do what they cannot - unite together in peace as one family.
This suggestion itself causes division.

Would you abandon your religion if it meant global peace? If not…..
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
This is part of the ongoing problem, the Baha'i expect changes to occur but don't offer any solutions to make it happen. It ain't just going to happen.
This link has links to what the Faith is doing across the world, in all Nations and the solutions on offer.

The solutions are given. There is no Compulsion in Religion though.


To All those that work for peace and unity, for the good of all humanity, I thank you, one and all.

Regards Tony
 
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loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
This is all idealistic and overly simplistic. You offer no real solutions to the problems of human psychology.

It’s what other religions have accomplished under a banner of truth. Humanism is better as it has less ideological baggage.

Much of it is the same reason Baha’i haven’t abandoned their bias against gays, it’s part of your tradition. Until you Baha’i can eliminate your own prejudice you can’t expect others to. And appealing to a God or messenger only claims an authority no one has. This is why humanism is better.

This suggestion itself causes division.

Would you abandon your religion if it meant global peace? If not…..
I still believe that you are running away from the fact that the Baha’is have actually established the only functional world community in human history under world governance, something the world has as of yet been unable to achieve torn aside by strife and division. We are living proof that world unity is possible. You won’t find anything like this in all of humanity all under one global governance functioning perfectly in a spirit of loving consultation.

 

F1fan

Veteran Member
This link has links to what the Faith is doing across the world, in all Nations and the solutions on offer.

The solutions are given. There is no Compulsion in Religion though.


To All those that work for peace and unity, for the good of all humanity, I thank you, one and all.

Regards Tony
I don’t see a whole lot that Baha’i accomplish outside of their religion and community. For such lofty goals there isn’t much progress.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
I still believe that you are running away from the fact that the Baha’is have actually established the only functional world community in human history under world governance, something the world has as of yet been unable to achieve torn aside by strife and division. We are living proof that world unity is possible. You won’t find anything like this in all of humanity all under one global governance functioning perfectly in a spirit of loving consultation.

I suggest professional bike racing has a more impactful global community. I’ll bet more have heard of the Tour de France than the Bahai religion.

Baha’i is a global religion, no doubt about it. But what are they doing to bring global unity? Where is their political action? Where is their work to advocate for education and emotional intelligence?
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
I see your points and I’ll try and explain. Baha’is look at the root cause of the problems and not just the symptoms because otherwise no cures will ever happen. We believe the root cause is disunity and unity and oneness can solve our problems. So if the world accepted legally that we are all citizens of planet earth with equal rights then where is war? And with an end to wars the world has $trillions and $trillions to clean the oceans, provide a universal basic wage, universal free education, universal free Medicare and world employment. But to achieve this there must be a change in mindsets everywhere. To replace the ‘us and them’ mentality with a wider loyalty to all humanity.

But evolving our mindsets to this level involves the elimination of all forms of prejudices - national, religious and racial and other profiling. only education or reeducation can have any chance of bringing about this change not treaties. A system needs to be erected on human rights and justice for all not greed and profit. It is a slow process.

So what have the Baha’is accomplished? The Baha’i World Community is the first and only world community that has ever existed in the history of the human race under a world governance. It is composed of members of all races, nationalities, faiths and cultures. It is proof that world unity can be achieved as it is comprised of a cross section of the entire human race. Humanity has never witnessed it’s like nor has it been able to achieve it’s like with disunity and conflicts arising everywhere.

So if the Baha’is can establish a unified world community under world governance why can’t the world stop fighting and get together and have peace? The one factor which the world lacks is the teachings of Baha’u’llah without which they are being swallowed and engulfed in more and more conflict and wars unable to extricate themselves from these problems and then criticising us who can do what they cannot - unite together in peace as one family.

Every system, short of the unification of the human race, has been tried, repeatedly tried, and been found wanting. Wars again and again have been fought, and conferences without number have met and deliberated. Treaties, pacts and covenants have been painstakingly negotiated, concluded and revised. Systems of government have been patiently tested, have been continually recast and superseded. Economic plans of reconstruction have been carefully devised, and meticulously executed. And yet crisis has succeeded crisis, and the rapidity with which a perilously unstable world is declining has been correspondingly accelerated.”

Shoghi Effendi
It is one thing to set up a community of volunteers that share the same faith. Doesn't something like the Catholic church already do that, for instance? It is quite another to scale that up to include whole societies, including a variety of opinions, beliefs and non-beliefs. Why would they submit to this "world governance", whatever it is? Sounds a bit creepy to me.
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
I still believe that you are running away from the fact that the Baha’is have actually established the only functional world community in human history under world governance, something the world has as of yet been unable to achieve torn aside by strife and division. We are living proof that world unity is possible. You won’t find anything like this in all of humanity all under one global governance functioning perfectly in a spirit of loving consultation.
No one is running away from that claim; it just isn't helpful. You have done nothing useful with it. And even in your outcry for humanity, you still went out of your way to deride the efforts to improve the lot of a community who have been (and still are) traditionally shunned, tortured, imprisoned and killed by most of the religions from which your alleged Messengers come.

I give financial, social and physical support to a variety of causes. Both local and international. So do the social and professional organizations to which I belong. In fact, that is one of the things that I look at before joining or supporting an organization. To what causes are the Baha'i currently providing tangible support?
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
I don’t see a whole lot that Baha’i accomplish outside of their religion and community. For such lofty goals there isn’t much progress.
Bahai’ are leading the way in establishing harmonious relationships between races, religions and nationalities. Where is unity between the nations, races and religions in the world today? The world is divided into opposing camps of ‘us and them’ and are unable to come together to solve the many conflicts underway and increasing. The problem is unbridled nationalism instead of a wider loyalty to humanity. World citizenship would grant all people equal universal rights and eliminate war funds to be able to then be used for promoting the quality of life everywhere. But there is no consciousness or mindset of the oneness of humanity as one family so everyone is divided into opposing camps.

The Baha’i World Community shows that we can establish a world community under a world governance and it works. We celebrate our diversity not fight over it and that is cutting edge. Today the world is struggling with its relationships with one another whether it be nations, races and religions and descending further into unending conflicts and wars. The solution we believe lies in acceptance of the oneness and a system based on human rights and justice.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Agreed. I personally and probably crassly think that the different groups should be manipulated into doing the right thing while thinking that they are doing something self serving lol.
Manipulation wouldn't be necessary if people only would think rationally. Conflict always costs resources and rarely does it yield any gain for the country. The only winner is the military-industrial complex and they are manipulating the different groups to do the wrong thing.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Bahai’ are leading the way in establishing harmonious relationships between races, religions and nationalities.
I don't see anything on their website. In what way are Baha'i leading the way better than the United Nations, or Doctors without Borders, or UNICEF, or any other organization whose aim is to improve conditions for all humans everywhere?

Is Baha'i working with the UN in a way that is crucial and indispensable to its work?
Where is unity between the nations, races and religions in the world today?
In the United Nations, for one. As as I noted many service organizations are humanist at the core, not Baha'i. They don't even discriminate against gays as Baha'i do.
The world is divided into opposing camps of ‘us and them’ and are unable to come together to solve the many conflicts underway and increasing.
And Baha'i contributes to this in certain ways. Even you on RF divide as you try to sell your religion to us. It's not as if Baha'i is unique in wanting peace and unity, it's just that Baha'i has nothing to offer. It seems to me that Baha'i want to be seen as leaders to a goal that they really do very little in making happen. And what would Baha'i get if viewed this way? Their dogma validated in a way they can't do themselves.

Why can't you Baha'i refer to global peace and unity without mentioning your religion?
The problem is unbridled nationalism instead of a wider loyalty to humanity. World citizenship would grant all people equal universal rights and eliminate war funds to be able to then be used for promoting the quality of life everywhere. But there is no consciousness or mindset of the oneness of humanity as one family so everyone is divided into opposing camps.
Yet since WW2 there has been a high degree of stability and cooperation. There have been wars, but notice Baha'i had no influence or power to stop putin. Why trust Baha'i to create world peace when they aren't effective today? Still no plan to make it happen, just repeating the aim. Baha'i is useless without a method.
The Baha’i World Community shows that we can establish a world community under a world governance and it works.
Where is it? Just your small tribe of people?
We celebrate our diversity not fight over it and that is cutting edge. Today the world is struggling with its relationships with one another whether it be nations, races and religions and descending further into unending conflicts and wars. The solution we believe lies in acceptance of the oneness and a system based on human rights and justice.
Except many non-Baha'i celebrate their diversity. You can see it among many members of RF, including atheists. There are many troubled people in the world and religious belief, including Baha'i, doesn't make these people see the light. It's just the way human biology and psychology is, and it will likley always be a problem for civilization until they start genetically engineering babies.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I believe our destiny is in our hands and that we humans have an untapped potential for good that can bring about a peaceful, kind and just world and we eventually will when we start believing in ourselves and the ‘conscience of the world has been stirred enough to act’. When that happens we will find that we can overcome once considered insurmountable obstacles because we believe in the power of our goodness. Our inertia is all that holds us back.

Eventually as we commingle more, borders and barriers will come down and the early signs of world citizenship will blossom leading to a world civilisation. War, poverty and oppression will no longer be tolerated as all will be considered as members of one human family with dignity and rights.

Some food for thought about where I believe we are all headed. A glorious future but after our conscience has been rocked by unimaginable horrors.


Unbridled nationalism, as distinguished from a sane and legitimate patriotism, must give way to a wider loyalty, to the love of humanity as a whole. Bahá’u’lláh's statement is: "The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens". The concept of world citizenship is a direct result of the contraction of the world into a single neighbourhood through scientific advances and of the indisputable interdependence of nations. Love of all the world's peoples does not exclude love of one's country. The advantage of the part in a world society is best served by promoting the advantage of the whole. Current international activities in various fields which nurture mutual affection and a sense of solidarity among peoples need greatly to be increased.
Universal House of Justice

I agree with most of what you say here in theory. I also believe that the world must eventually become unified, although there are too many indications that humanity just doesn't seem ready for it yet. 100 years ago, there were those who believed that all the workers of the world should unite, but there have been complications and impediments along the way. As you mention, nationalism and greed have become more pervasive.

But by the same token, there is a large degree of international cooperation, and for the most part, most governments of the world seem to cooperate with each other, more or less. Sometimes it might take encouragement, bribery, or cajoling from one or more of the major powers. Actual wars between national governments are kind of rare these days. They obviously still happen, but in previous centuries, it was more common. More often than not, nowadays wars mostly exist as internal affairs, whether it's wars by governments against their own people, or factional wars between rivals within the same national entity. Somehow, they manage to get weapons and military training from somewhere.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
This is a question addressed to those living in relative comfort, suffering no loss of dignity or humanity who have their rights granted by law. Who enjoy freedom and lives free from oppression and wars. Where are the people when their brothers and sisters in distant lands suffer horrendous cruelty and barbaric treatment at the hands of torture mongers who consider harm and hurt like a sport and game. Where are the people when we hear cries of help from brothers and sisters? Oh yes we pride ourselves that 100’s of millions across the world marched and protested for same sex marriage. A great achievement we considered that while in many countries fellow brothers sisters and children are murdered and tortured. But they are not us. That’s their problem isn’t it? We are Americans or Chinese or some other country so others than us are not our fellow humans so they don’t really matter, its for the politicians to fix - what can we helpless people do? But when people wanted same sex marriage they demanded it and got it! Where then have all the people gone when it comes to rising up for their afflicted fellow human beings? In the future when humanity has regained its humanity this time will be looked back upon as the most shameful period in human history, when we heard the cries of our fellow human beings around the world suffering under the yoke of oppression and turned our backs on them.

Take a bow humanity for turning our backs on the well being and peace of our brothers and sisters who keep calling for our help but there is no answer despite their plead to the international community. Where are the people? Where are the people who care? Better still where are the people who care and act?

Alone yes we are powerless but united we are a mighty force that can change the world if we wish and believe in ourselves.
These are certainly nice goals to reach for, but as you stated the majority care to an extent…. If they have to go past their comfort zone too much, and when they see the sheer scope of the problem / injustices, it gets disheartening.

It’s like putting a bandaid on gangrene….

Does it look like enough of mankind are even trying, let alone stand united? Do you really think they will?

Even if men had the wisdom to choose beneficial paths for all, do you think they have the will? Many times such a course, which would benefit others, like “going green,” requires too much change & self-restraint.

The advancement of technology is wonderful, but people are more selfish than ever.



I see the truth in Jeremiah 10:23, which tells us that men can’t “direct their steps.”

They’ve been ruling themselves for millennia, and it’s only led to ‘domination’ by the stronger. Ecclesiastes 8:9

All is not lost, though. We need to keep in mind what Jesus said, @ Matthew 6:9,10….. it’s God’s Kingdom that is going to accomplish “Thy Will be done on Earth, as in Heaven.”

As Daniel 2:44 says…
“In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever

Jehovah’s Kingdom, in the hands of His Son Jesus as King, is the only hope for mankind. It won’t use bandaids.

But it will play a role in “healing” the peoples of all the “nations”. Revelation 22:2,17.

Best wishes to you & yours!
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
That was a nice speech, @loverofhumanity , but the reality is that if you:

---drive a car
---eat fast food,
---ever bought a new cell phone,
---buy anything produced by Coca Cola
---or Nestle
---own a pair of running shoes

Or just basically live anything like a normal mainstream, first world life, then you're sponsoring child labor, forced labor, illegal land acquisitions, forced displacement of indigenous people, corporate sponsored and incited civil war, violent suppression of workers rights, and even assassinations and genocide.

You're sponsoring unhealthy and exploitative agricultural practices in third world countries that routinely result in artificially created famine and drought along with unhealthy and exploitative industrial practices that often result in man-made epidemics, mass poisoning, and any number of long-term and often fatal health problems affecting and often devastating whole communities.

Basically, unless you live in a cave, buy everything second hand, only buy fair trade and locally produced food, and walk or ride a bicycle everywhere you go then you're the author of everything that you're railing against in the OP.

Nice speech though
 

danieldemol

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I still believe that you are running away from the fact that the Baha’is have actually established the only functional world community in human history under world governance
This is simply not true, world governance is the governance of *all* in the world, Baha'i theocracy is alleged by the Baha'is of this forum to be only governence of Baha'i, which by definition is "Baha'i governance" not "world governence" in my view, but clever attempt at switching one in the place of the other and trying to pass it off.

Catholics also have a world leader for catholics only - the pope. Nothing new from Baha'i except that their world leader is an elected nine leaders as opposed to a single leader elected by a conclave in my opinion
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
This is simply not true, world governance is the governance of *all* in the world, Baha'i theocracy is alleged by the Baha'is of this forum to be only governence of Baha'i, which by definition is "Baha'i governance" not "world governence" in my view, but clever attempt at switching one in the place of the other and trying to pass it off.

Catholics also have a world leader for catholics only - the pope. Nothing new from Baha'i except that their world leader is an elected nine leaders as opposed to a single leader elected by a conclave in my opinion
Indeed. One important difference is that the Catholic church, like most faiths, does not aspire to govern the world, just the spiritual practice of its adherents.

It is the Baha'i apparent ambition to rule the world that I find a bit well, fascist. There is no acknowledgement that people will disagree. The virtue of democracy is it offers a way to govern, in spite of disagreements. I see no sign of Baha'i having any practical way to deal with this facet of human nature. In this sense Baha'i ideas seem to have more in common with muslim fundamentalism "We are right, and we will conquer you and make you submit", than with more reasonable religions.
 

danieldemol

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Indeed. One important difference is that the Catholic church, like most faiths, does not aspire to govern the world, just the spiritual practice of its adherents.

It is the Baha'i apparent ambition to rule the world that I find a bit well, fascist. There is no acknowledgement that people will disagree. The virtue of democracy is it offers a way to govern, in spite of disagreements. I see no sign of Baha'i having any practical way to deal with this facet of human nature. In this sense Baha'i ideas seem to have more in common with muslim fundamentalism "We are right, and we will conquer you and make you submit", than with more reasonable religions.
I dont see Baha'i as conquerors, but otherwise agree with your post.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
I dont see Baha'i as conquerors, but otherwise agree with your post.
OK I didn't mean conquerors literally - clumsy choice of words on my part - but that Baha'i seems to have taken that general absolutist mindset over from extreme islam, by not acknowledging that in human affairs people should be governed by a system that respects disagreements, rather than assuming there is an externally imposed "right" answer.

Many religions teach "right" answers for guiding the spiritual life of their adherents, but trying to migrate that idea into government is dictatorship, it seems to me.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
I've never understood why some think it's the duty of a country to fix the problems of other countries. That's why they have their own governments, their own charities, militaries, schools, and so on. We have enough problems fixing our own education systems, infrastructure, corruption, crime, economy, medical services and so on to start pouring time and money into everyone else's. Wealthy countries don't exist to serve poorer ones that can't get their acts together. We pour money and help into them and they're still tyrannical dictatorships. The only group who can help is their own people. Revolutions start from within. Outside interference rarely works and who are we to decide what needs 'fixing' anyway? So a culture doesn't let gay folks marry, big deal, that's their society, let them fix what they want and keep the 'barbarism' if they want it.

This post perfectly sums up some of my thoughts on this subject:

That was a nice speech, @loverofhumanity , but the reality is that if you:

---drive a car
---eat fast food,
---ever bought a new cell phone,
---buy anything produced by Coca Cola
---or Nestle
---own a pair of running shoes

Or just basically live anything like a normal mainstream, first world life, then you're sponsoring child labor, forced labor, illegal land acquisitions, forced displacement of indigenous people, corporate sponsored and incited civil war, violent suppression of workers rights, and even assassinations and genocide.

You're sponsoring unhealthy and exploitative agricultural practices in third world countries that routinely result in artificially created famine and drought along with unhealthy and exploitative industrial practices that often result in man-made epidemics, mass poisoning, and any number of long-term and often fatal health problems affecting and often devastating whole communities.

Basically, unless you live in a cave, buy everything second hand, only buy fair trade and locally produced food, and walk or ride a bicycle everywhere you go then you're the author of everything that you're railing against in the OP.

Nice speech though

Why should developed countries try to help poorer countries? Because the status quo of most poorer countries is absolutely impossible to decouple from the exploitation, consumerism, and resource redirection carried out by wealthier countries. It would be quite strange and inconsistent for countries like France, the UK, and the US to claim they don't want to help or "interfere" at all when their industries, lifestyles, and consumerism wouldn't even exist in their current state without heavy usage of resources, land, and labor from poorer countries.

If they wanted to stay completely out of other countries, I suppose they could, but then they would have to go all the way and also stop using resources, land, and labor from those countries. If they only wanted to stay out of helping but continued their other activities, they would be selectively ignoring a negative outcome to which they significantly contributed while still reaping the benefits of their activities in poorer countries.

This will only be further highlighted as climate change intensifies, because the countries with the highest CO2 emissions per capita are all wealthier ones. The way their prevalent lifestyles are set up is inherently destructive for many other countries, so that seems to me another solid case for their responsibility to help.
 
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