Where are the people?

[Rival]

This post perfectly sums up some of my thoughts on this subject:



Why should developed countries try to help poorer countries? Because the status quo of most poorer countries is absolutely impossible to decouple from the exploitation, consumerism, and resource redirection carried out by wealthier countries. It would be quite strange and inconsistent for countries like France, the UK, and the US to claim they don't want to help or "interfere" at all when their industries, lifestyles, and consumerism wouldn't even exist in their current state without heavy usage of resources, land, and labor from poorer countries.

If they want to stay completely out of other countries, I suppose they could, but then they would have to go all the way and also stop using resources, land, and labor from those countries. Otherwise they would be selectively ignoring a negative outcome to which they significantly contributed while still reaping the benefits of their activities in poorer countries.

That poorer countries let them treat them this way itfp is the problem. That's the reason the richer ones do it at all; because we don't allow such cheap labour. This is thus still an issue for their governments, not ours. Many, esp. on the right, desperately want to stop using cheap foreign labour and return to native labour. We're then called racist, but at the same time somehow also to blame for a situation we actively have been wanting to stop for decades.

 

[Debater Slayer]

That poorer countries let them treat them this way itfp is the problem. That's the reason the richer ones do it at all; because we don't allow such cheap labour. This is thus still an issue for their governments, not ours. Many, esp. on the right, desperately want to stop using cheap foreign labour and return to native labour. We're then called racist, but at the same time somehow also to blame for a situation we actively have been wanting to stop for decades.

Nobody likes being enslaved in a sweatshop or having to work 16 hours a day and still being unable to afford basic needs, but people do it when they have no other option due to tyranny, poverty, or any one of other numerous factors. The ones who let their people be treated this way are usually dictators who rule with terror and an iron fist, not representatives of the people who are being exploited in this manner. Such dictators have also been supported by wealthier countries at multiple points in the past, such as when the US fervently supported dictators in Latin America and the Middle East to further its own interests, to the point of supporting coups or disruption against foreign leaders.

To me, this issue mainly lies at the feet of governments, whether ones in wealthier or poorer countries. I find it unrealistic to expect the average citizen to know exactly how their lifestyle is sustained and then, on top of that, to avoid unethically sourced goods (basically an impossibility for anyone who is middle-class or above). The options they're presented with in elections also usually don't include anyone who touches on these issues, so any systemic, far-reaching changes are simply out of the average citizen's reach.

I also don't see the contribution to the problem as exclusive to developed countries. Not by a long shot. China, Saudi Arabia, the UAE, and Qatar, among others, are all quite guilty of this too, and they're using their money and geopolitical weight to sustain their exploitative influence.

 

[Quagmire]

If future generations ever make a movie about the first world it would be a dark comedy and this would make a great tagline:

"The First World . . .

. . . selectively ignoring a negative outcome to which they significantly contributed while still reaping the benefits of their activities in poorer countries

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

That poorer countries let them treat them this way itfp is the problem

That doesn’t seem completely fair. What are they supposed to do about it?

 

[Trailblazer]

Where are the people when we hear cries of help from brothers and sisters? Oh yes we pride ourselves that 100’s of millions across the world marched and protested for same sex marriage. A great achievement we considered that while in many countries fellow brothers sisters and children are murdered and tortured. But they are not us. That’s their problem isn’t it? We are Americans or Chinese or some other country so others than us are not our fellow humans so they don’t really matter, its for the politicians to fix - what can we helpless people do? But when people wanted same sex marriage they demanded it and got it! Where then have all the people gone when it comes to rising up for their afflicted fellow human beings?

Where are they indeed? This is not only about same sex marriage rights. The rights people seem to care about are the right to have sex, with whomever, wherever, whenever, and however, they want to as long as it is consensual. No matter if a woman gets pregnant, she can just get an abortion. No matter if STDs are spread, the medical insurance plan can pay for drugs. Let's talk about medical costs for abortions and STDs, money that could be spent on feeding and housing the poor.

I don't see same sex marriage as a great achievement. There is a reason why marriage has always been between a man and a woman, because only a man and a woman can bear children together.

I have a former tenant, still my friend, who has been living with her boyfriend for over 12 years because they cannot afford to lose his social security disability check, and they don't get the benefits of a married couple since common-law marriage is not recognized in my state. The nicest men you would ever want to meet are my next door neighbors, four gay men, and they are not married but they have been living together for over 14 years. They are not looking for the 'benefits' of marriage.

 

[syo]

Where are the people?

They vote and pay taxes.

 

[danieldemol]

Let's talk about medical costs for abortions and STDs, money that could be spent on feeding and housing the poor.

It couldn't be spent on feeding and housing the poor if there are too many of them in my view, or rather it could but the money wouldn't go very far divided up amongst too great a number.

The main cost for abortions is the cost of a pill so pretty negligible as far as i know.

The cost of STDs is quite high, but it tends to be higher in low and middle income countries, and abstinence only education has been around for millennia without making a dent in the cost, so educating people to practice safe sex seems like a higher priority if you actually care about the problem as opposed to just preaching dogma at people in my view.

 

[CG Didymus]

The one factor which the world lacks is the teachings of Baha’u’llah without which they are being swallowed and engulfed in more and more conflict and wars unable to extricate themselves from these problems and then criticising us who can do what they cannot - unite together in peace as one family.

This suggestion itself causes division.

Would you abandon your religion if it meant global peace? If not…..

The one factor the world lacks? It seems obvious that without believing in their prophet and his teachings, Baha'is, themselves, can't be unified with others.

But actually, I think the Baha'i Faith, as with most any major religion, could work. All people would have to do is believe the same thing and submit themselves to their religious leaders. But one of the things standing in the way, is all the other religions.

However, I have seen some religious people get along with people from another religion. But it's when they don't take their own religion too seriously or literally. And can Baha'is do that? It doesn't seem like it. They believe they are the truth for today and are the only religion that has the teachings that can bring peace and unity. So, that peace and unity depends on believing in them, the Baha'is, and ultimately, if we come to believe them, to join them. But with their beliefs and their laws, I don't see how that's going to happen.

 

[Ella S.]

I really disagree with "when people wanted same sex marriage they demanded it and got it"

I don't think that's what happened at all. If it were that simple, gay marriage would have been recognized much sooner.

Everything that happens on a systemic level only occurs because the people in power benefit from it in some way. No progress will be made on anything that they have no interest in. They're the ones with the resources and the influence. They're the ones who do the lobbying and fund the campaigns.

People want a lot of things. The wants that we get fulfilled are fulfilled on the timeline by those in power, only once they decide that they can profit from it in some way. There's no profit off of sending food to people who can't afford it. There is more profit to be had in selling rainbow flags and exploiting the loyalty of minority demographics.

We don't get anything from politely asking people in positions of power to listen to us. They don't care about us. We're means to an end for them.

Do you really think the average middle class American citizen has more global political sway than someone in Burundi? If only. No, I just don't think that's how it works.

If you want, you can donate money to charities, but that's incredibly inefficient. The most efficient charities that I've seen have required approximately $4k to save a single life. Do you have a spare $4k lying around to save one person, much less the money required to save an entire nation? Very few people do.

So what do you donate? A few hundred dollars, maybe? Does that make you feel like you're actually doing something worthwhile? Does voting make you feel like you're actually making a difference?

I just don't see it. I think the reality is that we don't have much power at all and these things give us an illusion of control over things that we have virtually no influence over. It placates us from doing anything of actual value.

 

[CG Didymus]

Why should developed countries try to help poorer countries? Because the status quo of most poorer countries is absolutely impossible to decouple from the exploitation, consumerism, and resource redirection carried out by wealthier countries.

Even in the U.S. the rich and those in power and those in business depend on the poorer masses to do the dirty work. And in agriculture and even construction, the U.S. depends on illegal immigrants and barely legal immigrants to do a lot of the work.

The U.S. is still trying to work out the problems of having kept some people disenfranchised. And the U.S. became the U.S. by taking the land and sticking the Native people on reservations.

There are people working for and against bringing about change in all these things. What are the Baha'is going to do? Besides say, "Well, all people should get along and treat each other as members of one human family." Those with wealth and power aren't going to give in easily. But are those people that depend on the rich for jobs going to rock the boat and cause trouble? They've got mouths to feed and gas to buy and utility bills to pay.

The Baha'i Faith needs, and is waiting for, the total collapse of what they call the "old world order" and then they will put God's "new" order into place. A new civilization with no more wars, no hunger or poverty and all the rest of the good stuff.

"… Both within and without the Cause of God, powerful forces are operating to bring to a climax the twin tendencies of this portentous century. Among the many evidences which reveal this process may be cited, on the one hand, the continual increase of lawlessness, terrorism, economic confusion, immorality and the growing danger from the proliferation of weapons of destruction, and on the other, the world-wide, divinely propelled expansion, consolidation and rapid emergence into the limelight of world affairs of the Cause itself, a process crowned by the wonderful efflorescence of Mount Carmel, the mountain of God, whose Divine springtime is now so magnificently burgeoning."​

​

(From a message of the Universal House of Justice to the Bahá’ís of the world, Ridván 1983)​

​

The House of Justice noted your comments that you have read what Bahá’u’lláh had to say about the collapse of the old world order and the coming of the new, and that in recent times friends returning from their pilgrimages spoke of meetings with Hands of the Cause and members of the House of Justice in which the coming of great world upheavals was related to a time 'around the end of the Five Year Plan and afterwards'. The House of Justice points out that calamities have been and are occurring and will continue to happen until mankind has been chastened sufficiently to accept the Manifestation for this day. ‘Abdu’l-Bahá anticipated that the Lesser Peace could be established before the end of the twentieth century. However, Bahá’ís should not be diverted from the work of the Cause by the fear of catastrophes but should try to understand why they occur..."​

​

(From a letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer, April 15, 1976)​

 

[Trailblazer]

The Baha'i Faith needs, and is waiting for, the total collapse of what they call the "old world order" and then they will put God's "new" order into place. A new civilization with no more wars, no hunger or poverty and all the rest of the good stuff.

No, from what I see happening in Baha'i communities, the Baha'is are not waiting for anything to happen. According to the structured Plans that the UHJ has set forth Baha'is are busy trying to build up their communities. The goals have shifted. Community building is now the bigger push than teaching the Faith.

There is no way of knowing when or how the collapse of the old world order will take place but it is already happening around the world. Nobody knows if there will be one big cataclysmic event that will happen. It is all conjecture. Scriptures are all too vague and can be interpreted in various ways.

 

[danieldemol]

Peace could be established before the end of the twentieth century.

Note the (in my view) slight of hand here, Abdul-Baha says, "The fifth candle is the unity of nations—a unity which in this century will be securely established, causing all the peoples of the world to regard themselves as citizens of one common fatherland."

Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Pages 29-32

Fast forward to 2023 where *all* the peoples of the world do not regard themselves as citizens of one common fatherland.

The Baha'i Universal House of Justice are blatantly changing the words of a failed prophecy to post hoc rationalise it in my view.

 

[danieldemol]

Scriptures are all too vague and can be interpreted in various ways.

So your allegedly All knowing All powerful God didn't have the specific knowledge of the future or the power to word it in a specific way not vague and open to interpretation in my view. Can you see why your God just looks human to others?

 

[Trailblazer]

Note the (in my view) slight of hand here, Abdul-Baha says, "The fifth candle is the unity of nations—a unity which in this century will be securely established, causing all the peoples of the world to regard themselves as citizens of one common fatherland."

Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Pages 29-32

Fast forward to 2023 where *all* the peoples of the world do not regard themselves as citizens of one common fatherland.

The Baha'i Universal House of Justice are blatantly changing the words of a failed prophecy to post hoc rationalise it in my view.

It was mistranslated from Persian into English. It was supposed to say "in this age" not "in this century."
I found that out years ago from a Baha'i who is fluent in Persian and English, so he was able to read the original Writings.

 

[Trailblazer]

So your allegedly All knowing All powerful God didn't have the specific knowledge of the future or the power to word it in a specific way not vague and open to interpretation in my view. Can you see why your God just looks human to others?

God could have made it more specific, but Baha'u'llah explained why He did not do so.
There is a reason for everything.

“The world is in travail, and its agitation waxeth day by day. Its face is turned towards waywardness and unbelief. Such shall be its plight, that to disclose it now would not be meet and seemly. Its perversity will long continue. And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake. Then, and only then, will the Divine Standard be unfurled, and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 118-119

 

[danieldemol]

It was mistranslated from Persian into English. It was supposed to say "in this age" not "in this century."
I found that out years ago from a Baha'i who is fluent in Persian and English, so he was able to read the original Writings.

More like a Baha'i from Persian background told you a fib and you believed it in my view

But it is ironic that according to you your God would allow his prophecies to be translated in a misleading way and for it only to be discovered after the fact. Talk about a grossly incompetent God in my view.

 

[danieldemol]

God could have made it more specific, but Baha'u'llah explained why He did not do so.
There is a reason for everything.

“The world is in travail, and its agitation waxeth day by day. Its face is turned towards waywardness and unbelief. Such shall be its plight, that to disclose it now would not be meet and seemly. Its perversity will long continue. And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake. Then, and only then, will the Divine Standard be unfurled, and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 118-119

There is always an excuse for Baha'u'llah not demonstrating the capability of an All-knowing All powerful God, but never a good reason in my view.

 

[Trailblazer]

More like a Baha'i from Persian background told you a fib and you believed it in my view

He was not from a Persian background, but you are free to hold any view you want to hold.

But it is ironic that according to you your God would allow his prophecies to be translated in a misleading way and for it only to be discovered after the fact. Talk about a grossly incompetent God in my view.

It's not really a big deal. Humans are fallible so they make mistakes sometimes. God allows humans free will so God isn't going to step in.

 

[Trailblazer]

There is always an excuse for Baha'u'llah not demonstrating the capability of an All-knowing All powerful God, but never a good reason in my view.

This has nothing to do with capability.

 

[Truthseeker]

It was mistranslated from Persian into English. It was supposed to say "in this age" not "in this century."
I found that out years ago from a Baha'i who is fluent in Persian and English, so he was able to read the original Writings.

I have been thinking that when Abdu'l-Baha says this century maybe he means this age. When did this Baha'i who was fluent in Persian and English say this to you?

I found this in Century of Light by/on behalf of the Universal House of Justice at the Baha'i Library. This was published in 2001:

The Master's promise of "unity of nations", on the other hand, looked forward to today's widespread acceptance among the peoples of the world of the fact that, however great the differences among them may be, they are the inhabitants of a single global homeland.

Century of Light

You've got a problem with this person saying this was mistranslated. Shoghi Effendi quoted this in The Promised Day has Come. Shoghi Effendi doesn't mistranslate. He always finds the correct word to use to convey the intended meaning.