You're welcome! I like to know as well. I respect and try to understand all POV. I do get frustrated by people who try to force their beliefs on others however. I think that everyone who follows a faith or religion or spiritual path is doing so because that is where they are supposed to be. I hope you understand that. Namaste!
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Where did Good People go Before Christ Died on the Cross?
- Thread starter Hong Xiuquan
- Start date
Hong Xiuquan
Member
Ok...I thought that was a possibility. I didn't read the fine print. So.....when reading stuff on the forum, do you have to enlarge what we write?
Hong Xiuquan
Member
Yes....anyone sharing on this forum, including myself, can come across as trying to force their views on to others. However, for myself, I'm not worried whether what I've written is believed or not. I'm just stating my perspective. If God is not happy with someone's belief....then I believe he will speak to their heart.
Yes, unfortunately. I cannot see much beyond the size of this font I use. Its very frustrating.
I agree though I think what God wants us to hear may differ depending on the person. Which, IMO, is up to God. I applaud that you have found the path you find peaceful and full of solace. Best to you.
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
I understand as I was Protestant myself once. They are not the same place in the Bible though. The first paradise was Eden and it was on earth. This is the home God prepared for his earthly children and it was supposed to be forever. Death was only ever mentioned as a penalty for disobedience in the garden, so consequently if Adam and his wife had remained obedient to the command of their God, they would have lived forever, right here on earth. Have you ever contemplated that?
Yes, it is true. The Bible does not actually ever say that Jesus and his Father share a godhead with the holy spirit.
Nowhere is there an equality of Father and son ever mentioned. In fact, before the Roman Catholic Church formulated the doctrine through much controversy in the 4th century, the doctrine of the trinity did not exist....but it was brewing in the minds of some right along with the deification of Mary.
Jesus was Jewish and the Jews never believed in a triune God. (Deut 6:4) Jesus never taught that he was God.
Hong Xiuquan
Member
Yes, I realize that Adam and Eve could still be living in the Garden if they had not sinned. However, I believe that if Satan got in once, he would have been able to get in again....and he would have tried to tempt someone else down the line.
Christians prefer to use the trinity as a concept to describe God. I do realize the actual term is not mentioned in the Bible. Jesus had to be very careful what he said. He couldn't just go around telling people he was God incarnated in human form. He would have been stoned to death....and he had to die a certain way.....on the cross as a sacrifice. However, in my mind there are enough scripture references to prove that Jesus is in fact God.
Exodus 3:14 "God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM". This is what you are to say to the Israelites, "I AM" has sent me to you"
John 8:56-59 Jesus: "Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.
You are not yet fifty years old, the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"
"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds."
There are other verses too but due to the time factor, I will just discuss these verses today. The Jews knew that God had appeared to Moses. Jesus is clearly saying it was him that appeared.....that it was him who appeared because he is God. The Jews realized what he was saying and were going to kill him for mentioning it. No-one was allowed to say they were God. Christians believe that God came many times in human form to visit people in the Bible, like to Abraham....to Jacob (the wrestling match) etc....Only God could say that he existed before Abraham...unless God could have sent a man like Adam. But Adam could not die as a savior for mankind due to his sin. Adam could not be reborn in human form, having been a human before. This would be reincarnation.Jesus knew Abraham well because he had spoken to him as God.
When the JW came to my house, he explained that Jesus was a perfect man.....a man without sin....who took away the sins of the world. And this is a key doctrine of Kingdom Hall. If this is the truth, then no-one will make it to Heaven. No man, whether perfect or not can remove the sin for mankind. Only God could do this. And a human sacrifice is not acceptable to God as we see with Abraham, who was prevented from offering his son. Only God could offer himself once for all and being a divine sacrifice, it works for past sin, present sin, and future sin. God used Abraham's attempted sacrifice as an illustration that man cannot be offered as a blood sacrifice but it pointed to another future sacrifice.....the one of Jesus, where it would be acceptable because God would be offering himself.
You will say....but Christ was a perfect man. Yes, that is correct. But so were all the animals that were offered. They were perfect too...in every way. But they could only remove past sin. If God allowed human sacrifices, then they would only cover past sin. More humans would have to be sacrificed to cover future sin. The sacrifice of one man (not divine) could never cover all sin for all time.....this would be something only God could achieve.
From a mainstream Christian perspective, a JW is not saved for denying the divinity of JC. However, personally, I'm not sure how God would view it. You still believe in JC removing the sins of the world, which is required for salvation. It's a tricky one.
Prayer: May God bless these words. Amen.
Hong Xiuquan
Member
Yes, I realize that Adam and Eve could still be living in the Garden if they had not sinned. However, I believe that if Satan got in once, he would have been able to get in again....and he would have tried to tempt someone else down the line.
Christians prefer to use the trinity as a concept to describe God. I do realize the actual term is not mentioned in the Bible. Jesus had to be very careful what he said. He couldn't just go around telling people he was God incarnated in human form. He would have been stoned to death....and he had to die a certain way.....on the cross as a sacrifice. However, in my mind there are enough scripture references to prove that Jesus is in fact God.
Exodus 3:14 "God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM". This is what you are to say to the Israelites, "I AM" has sent me to you"
John 8:56-59 Jesus: "Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.
You are not yet fifty years old, the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"
"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds."
There are other verses too but due to the time factor, I will just discuss these verses today. The Jews knew that God had appeared to Moses. Jesus is clearly saying it was him that appeared.....that it was him who appeared because he is God. The Jews realized what he was saying and were going to kill him for mentioning it. No-one was allowed to say they were God. Christians believe that God came many times in human form to visit people in the Bible, like to Abraham....to Jacob (the wrestling match) etc....Only God could say that he existed before Abraham...unless God could have sent a man like Adam. But Adam could not die as a savior for mankind due to his sin. Adam could not be reborn in human form, having been a human before. This would be reincarnation.Jesus knew Abraham well because he had spoken to him as God.
When the JW came to my house, he explained that Jesus was a perfect man.....a man without sin....who took away the sins of the world. And this is a key doctrine of Kingdom Hall. If this is the truth, then no-one will make it to Heaven. No man, whether perfect or not can remove the sin for mankind. Only God could do this. And a human sacrifice is not acceptable to God as we see with Abraham, who was prevented from offering his son. Only God could offer himself once for all and being a divine sacrifice, it works for past sin, present sin, and future sin. God used Abraham's attempted sacrifice as an illustration that man cannot be offered as a blood sacrifice but it pointed to another future sacrifice.....the one of Jesus, where it would be acceptable because God would be offering himself.
You will say....but Christ was a perfect man. Yes, that is correct. But so were all the animals that were offered. They were perfect too...in every way. But they could only remove past sin. If God allowed human sacrifices, then they would only cover past sin. More humans would have to be sacrificed to cover future sin. The sacrifice of one man (not divine) could never cover all sin for all time.....this would be something only God could achieve.
From a mainstream Christian perspective, a JW is not saved for denying the divinity of JC. However, personally, I'm not sure how God would view it. You still believe in JC removing the sins of the world, which is required for salvation. It's a tricky one.
Prayer: May God bless these words. Amen.
Hong Xiuquan
Member
I'm sorry Bible Student but you are mistaken (said politely). Those verses are all in the New Testament and were all said by Jesus. I've read them all many times. God bless.
Nada
#
Oh boy..I mixed up my info.Forgive me.I was in a rush,multi tasking.Sorry about that.
Hong Xiuquan
Member
Oh boy..I mixed up my info.Forgive me.I was in a rush,multi tasking.Sorry about that.
I forgive you.....and thanks for the great video. Is that you or someone else?
Nada
#
The second scripture is Matthew 5:8.It does not mean humans pure in heart will literally see God.It means that those who look around and acknowledge God as the Grand creator will know He is God the Almighty by the things they see.Just as it is said in Romans 1:20. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
Now those of the anointed class,the ones born of holy spirit,like those who were present at the Pentecost of 33.C.E,will see God in heaven.God the Almighty is a spirit.Humans cannot see spirits for they are invisible.
Colossians 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
1 Corinthians 15:50,51. I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.51Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,…
Not all will be in heaven.Only a selected number.Those who walked with Christ in the 1st century and some others too will be of this class of people.The first fruits. Re 14:1-4;
The Earth has a purpose.It always has.To be filled up and lived on forever.This was the plan, before the fall, in the garden of Eden.After this wicked system of things has been destroyed,God's new government will be established.
Isaiah 45:18 For this is what the LORD says-- he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited-- he says: "I am the LORD, and there is no other.
Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
So faithful humans who serve God and obey Him to the end will indeed live forever on a paradise earth.This is promised by God in the holy scriptures.
For those who are of the anointed class there are other plans.Those of the anointed class will reign with Jesus Christ and serve as judges along side of him.
1 Corinthians 6:3 Don't you realize that we will judge angels? So you should surely be able to resolve ordinary disputes in this life.
This task is obviously not for all humans.Heaven is where God's government dwells.It is filled with spirit creatures.God rules the universe from Heaven.Earth is where man dwells.
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Nada
#
That is Jim Carey in the picture, from a movie.
Akivah
Well-Known Member
I notice that your writing display a large ignorance of Judaism, but if you want to believe incorrect information, that's fine.
Actually belief in the resurrection of the dead is one of the 13 Principles of Faith of Judaism.
Interesting...you downplay and ignore G-d's actual choice and use your own speculations instead. We understand our own Torah quite well, thank you. The concept of "chosenness" only applies to the occupation that G-d gave to us, that is, He designated us to be a Nation of Priests. Being "chosen" has nothing to do with the afterlife.
And our own Talmudic writings state that G-d offered this Chosen status to every nation on Earth, but except for the Hebrews, all other nations rejected it. "I have to cut off the end of my what!" or "I can't eat bacon!". They're not exactly the most popular set of Laws.
Actually belief in the resurrection of the dead is one of the 13 Principles of Faith of Judaism.
Interesting...you downplay and ignore G-d's actual choice and use your own speculations instead. We understand our own Torah quite well, thank you. The concept of "chosenness" only applies to the occupation that G-d gave to us, that is, He designated us to be a Nation of Priests. Being "chosen" has nothing to do with the afterlife.
And our own Talmudic writings state that G-d offered this Chosen status to every nation on Earth, but except for the Hebrews, all other nations rejected it. "I have to cut off the end of my what!" or "I can't eat bacon!". They're not exactly the most popular set of Laws.
LASTINGLIGHT
Member
It always amazes me how people manage to take the simple words of Jesus and use the words of Paul and the OT to contort them into some kind of religious dogma. The words of Jesus are simple. They mean what they say. Using the words of others to warp them into a theology to suit yourself or your churches theology is like calling Jesus a liar. The words of Jesus need no explanation.
"The words of Jesus trump everything else in the bible. When your in doubt, see what Jesus says."
Jimmy Carter
LASTINGLIGHT
Member
Is there not a verse like that?
InChrist
Free4ever
What is the true Self you believe we need to discover and what are the benefits of this true Self for ourselves or others?
Nada
#
Wow! No one is trying to do anything like that.Paul was a disciple of Jesus.Paul is responsible for 14 of the NT 's writings.
There are more to words than just what you read.Jesus also spoke in parables and used symbolic language.There are many writings in the holy scriptures that mean something other than what is being read.
For instance in the book of Revelation it speaks of a beast coming out of the sea.Rev 13:1 If it is as you say then one would literally think it means an animal.Of course there is more to it than that.It actually is referring to a governments or kingdoms.World empires.Just like in the book of Daniel where it mentions the hairy goat.It speaks of one of these great powers.This is speaking of Alexander the Great, and later his four generals, that break up the Kingdom of Greece into four parts,after the death of Alexander, that eventually transform into the Roman Empire.Daniel 8:21
When it mentions waters in the book of Revelation, it is referring to many peoples.If someone just reads that passage they would literally think a beast would come out of literal water.
Revelation 17:15 Then the angel said to me, "The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages.
So, we can clearly see that words mean more than what we read.We must investigate and read carefully.A thorough study is required in order to get an accurate knowledge of the truth.
Jesus was clearly speaking to his anointed followers when he mentions that they will be with him in heaven.Heaven is not for all.Only those chosen by God to reign with Jesus Christ in heaven.
Ps.You mentioned that the words of Jesus are simple.Many did not understand Jesus when he preached.Many left him because they thought he was crazy.
John 6:60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?"
John 6:66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
Not everyone will understand.It must be granted you by God this information.It is by way of grace that one comes to understand the word of God.
John 6:63-65. …63"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. 64"But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.65And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
LASTINGLIGHT
Member
I have always understood the teachings. They are mostly simple. I do not need "Paul" or any other of the "interpreters of Jesus" in the NT to explain or elaborate to me what they mean. Maybe some people can not understand because they still use translations that are not in current English. Or maybe they lack the intelligence to understand. More likely they have been told so much crap by so many preachers that they will believe what they are told just so they will not look dumb. I don't know. Where did people go before Jesus died on the cross? The same place they have always went.
Nada
#
You seem angry.Do not be upset by this please.Let us discuss in a good manner.No need for harshness.
Jesus obviously thought that he needed disciples to carry his message did he not? If not he would have not recruited them for the task.They carried on his teachings to many.
You state that maybe some people do not understand because of translations.It is more than that.The holy scriptures makes it very clear that the only way to obtain an accurate knowledge of the truth is by grace alone.It matters not how smart you think you are.
Ephesians 2:8New International Version (NIV)
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
Also,being smart has nothing to do with learning the truth in the holy scriptures.
Acts 4:13 When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus.