Where exactly is the sacrifice in the death of Jesus?

[Webbster101]

Oh cry me a river.
Lets give god a medal for being better than humans.
Whoop dee freaking do.

Like god did not know that he was going to be resurrected three days later.
Yeah, real big sacrifice.

How about we look into the fact that God already knew even before he started that man had no way of following the 613 rules he was going to declare?
Seems to me that it was all a set up for god to do some real role playing.
But he was never in any peril.
or danger.
So what was the point of the charade?

Yes, God may have known man would sin and he would need to send his son to die for us but he also gave us freewill to decide to accept him and gain eternal life or not. I don't know about the rest of you but I think we are all taking the thread question too far!!

 

[Webbster101]

TYou believe what you will, and I shall believe in what I believe to be the truth ............

You need to be careful when you speak like that because we, as Christians, need to get the truth out into the world not bomb others with it (I know it can be hard at times but we need to move forward not backwards).

 

[fallingblood]

Thats not entierly true, while Christ was up on the cross (though others never saw it) God was pouring out his wrath on Christ to attone for our sins. That is where the sacrifice is not is the general view of him dying for our sins but that he took the wrath of God for us.

Is there any reference to this or anything that supports this view?

 

[Zadok]

Oh cry me a river.
Lets give god a medal for being better than humans.
Whoop dee freaking do.

Like god did not know that he was going to be resurrected three days later.
Yeah, real big sacrifice.

How about we look into the fact that God already knew even before he started that man had no way of following the 613 rules he was going to declare?
Seems to me that it was all a set up for god to do some real role playing.
But he was never in any peril.
or danger.
So what was the point of the charade?

The point that you obviously do not understand is discipline - not for personal aggrandizement but for the good of someone other than self. There was nothing in it for him. The sad thing is not that you do not care but that you do not recognize or care for the power of discipline.

And so you pretend that discipline is a charade –to accomplish what? Without discipline, you will gain nothing and lose everything - sadly without discipline you will lose even your most trusted friends; if you ever had any.



Zadok

 

[Tristesse]

Could you name some of those individuals?

Sure, Mithra, Adonis, Dionysus, osirus, etc... Dionysus is actually said to have performed miracles such as turning water into wine, hmmm...sounds familiar.

 

[sojourner]

Oh cry me a river.
Lets give god a medal for being better than humans.
Whoop dee freaking do.

Like god did not know that he was going to be resurrected three days later.
Yeah, real big sacrifice.

How about we look into the fact that God already knew even before he started that man had no way of following the 613 rules he was going to declare?
Seems to me that it was all a set up for god to do some real role playing.
But he was never in any peril.
or danger.
So what was the point of the charade?

Fine. You let yourself be beaten to within an inch of your life, and then hang nailed to a cross in the hot sun without pain-killers, and we'll see how quickly you cry "sacrifice." Even with the knowledge of an imminent resurrection. When you've done those things, then come back and I'll happily cry you a "whoop-dee-freaking-doo river."

Jesus died. Death is peril. And danger. Can you overcome death?

 

[sojourner]

Well he submits the rest of us to humanity, so why isn't that just as much of a sacrificial incarnation? And so what that he had to be incarnated for a few decades, only to die and rule the universe forever? The rest of us die and most of us area punished forever because we unintentionally had the wrong things regarding the unknowable make sense to us.

First of all, we're not divine. We were created human. There's a fundamental difference there. Second, I don't believe that any of us are "punished for ever."

 

[sojourner]

Thats not entierly true, while Christ was up on the cross (though others never saw it) God was pouring out his wrath on Christ to attone for our sins. That is where the sacrifice is not is the general view of him dying for our sins but that he took the wrath of God for us.

Hmmm... and yet, God turns aside from God's wrath...
I don't read anything in the passion narratives about God's wrath poured out upon Jesus.

 

[Tristesse]

Fine. You let yourself be beaten to within an inch of your life, and then hang nailed to a cross in the hot sun without pain-killers, and we'll see how quickly you cry "sacrifice." Even with the knowledge of an imminent resurrection. When you've done those things, then come back and I'll happily cry you a "whoop-dee-freaking-doo river."

Jesus died. Death is peril. And danger. Can you overcome death?

Jesus is god, right? So, whats a bodily sacrifice for god? And if I knew the outcome was going to be ruler of the universe for eternity, I would do that in a heartbeat.

 

[sojourner]

Jesus is god, right? So, whats a bodily sacrifice for god? And if I knew the outcome was going to be ruler of the universe for eternity, I would do that in a heartbeat.

you're forgetting that, not only was Jesus fully God, he was also fully human. Like me or you. what's a bodily sacrifice for any of us?

 

[Alien]

This is the most significant post on this thread. The point is that Jesus had power at anytime to deliver himself from the situation which brought about his death. Thus it can be said that he gave his life and that it was not taken. The point is that he exercised discipline in a greater cause than his personal momentary wants and pleasures. We learn from scripture that his personal desire was not to continue with the ordeal but he submitted himself sacrificing his will for the benefit of others that it could be argued did not deserve such a thing.

The idea that it was not a sacrifice because he became the Suzerain of the universe overlooks the fact that he did not gain that position because of his “sacrifice”. He already was Suzerain of the universe and did not gain anything for himself for his effort and suffering. The benefit is for all that live in this mortal existence and die.

Zadok

So then...If this is true, lets say we discover life on other planets, that means Jesus, "Suzerain of the universe" died for them too? I don't know about you but if we had an alien race telling us hey, our guy here is "Suzerain of the Universe" he rules you too, I'd probably be like "he/she doesn't have the jurisdiction!" So what give's Jesus the jurisdiction? And you say the benefit is for us, but I still don't get how this benefited us and our alien friends cause they don't even know who Jesus is. How do we know one of their own didn't die for them in the same manner and is laying claim to this "Suzerain of the universe" title as well? What problem did it change or fix in humanity that was wrong that we still don't have today?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

you're forgetting that, not only was Jesus fully God, he was also fully human. Like me or you. what's a bodily sacrifice for any of us?

It wouldn't be much of anything if we knew that we were going to live forever in another life - making bodily sacrifice, martyrs, and death in general, rather meaningless.

 

[fallingblood]

Sure, Mithra, Adonis, Dionysus, osirus, etc... Dionysus is actually said to have performed miracles such as turning water into wine, hmmm...sounds familiar.

Mithra as post Jesus, so irrelevant here. And I would suggest maybe doing some research yourself. The similarities between the people you listed and Jesus are very slim. I could actually related them to Augustus as well with little difficulty using the same method that they are related to Jesus: that method being complete fabrication.

For Adonis, I see nothing like a blood sacrifice. He was murdered. I really see no allusion to him being a blood sacrifice at all.

Dionysus, again, no blood sacrifice. He was torn apart and devoured by the Titans. There was no blood sacrifice involved.

Osiris, again, no blood sacrifice. I think he would be the longest stretch to it.

Basically, it's a load of hogwash what you're trying to sell here. None of those individuals were involved in blood sacrifices. The idea the Jesus is based on them simply shows a lack or research in ancient cultures.

 

[logician]

Mithra as post Jesus, so irrelevant here. And I would suggest maybe doing some research yourself. The similarities between the people you listed and Jesus are very slim. I could actually related them to Augustus as well with little difficulty using the same method that they are related to Jesus: that method being complete fabrication.

For Adonis, I see nothing like a blood sacrifice. He was murdered. I really see no allusion to him being a blood sacrifice at all.

Dionysus, again, no blood sacrifice. He was torn apart and devoured by the Titans. There was no blood sacrifice involved.

Osiris, again, no blood sacrifice. I think he would be the longest stretch to it.

Basically, it's a load of hogwash what you're trying to sell here. None of those individuals were involved in blood sacrifices. The idea the Jesus is based on them simply shows a lack or research in ancient cultures.

Yawn, Ok then, where did the Jesus idea come from, thin air?:sleep:

 

[fallingblood]

Yawn, Ok then, where did the Jesus idea come from, thin air?:sleep:

Does this really need to be answered? The Jesus idea came from the historical Jesus. I don't see why that question even needed to be asked.

 

[Tristesse]

Mithra as post Jesus, so irrelevant here. And I would suggest maybe doing some research yourself. The similarities between the people you listed and Jesus are very slim. I could actually related them to Augustus as well with little difficulty using the same method that they are related to Jesus: that method being complete fabrication.

For Adonis, I see nothing like a blood sacrifice. He was murdered. I really see no allusion to him being a blood sacrifice at all.

Dionysus, again, no blood sacrifice. He was torn apart and devoured by the Titans. There was no blood sacrifice involved.

Osiris, again, no blood sacrifice. I think he would be the longest stretch to it.

Basically, it's a load of hogwash what you're trying to sell here. None of those individuals were involved in blood sacrifices. The idea the Jesus is based on them simply shows a lack or research in ancient cultures.

my only point was that these characters died and were resurrected. And I never said jesus was based around these individuals, I think that the myths grew around jesus. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, I'm just pointing out that the jesus story is not unique to jesus. These are legends that were passed down from person to person, in an oral tradition and people wrote them down decades later. So, it shouldn't be surprising to see similarities.

 

[Tristesse]

you're forgetting that, not only was Jesus fully God, he was also fully human. Like me or you. what's a bodily sacrifice for any of us?

So, god is a contradiction?

 

[logician]

Does this really need to be answered? The Jesus idea came from the historical Jesus. I don't see why that question even needed to be asked.

Please give me a break, you have no proof of this whatsoever.:sleep:

 

[Kilgore Trout]

So, god is a contradiction?

Just like Starburst which are juicy, but a solid.

 

[sojourner]

So then...If this is true, lets say we discover life on other planets, that means Jesus, "Suzerain of the universe" died for them too? I don't know about you but if we had an alien race telling us hey, our guy here is "Suzerain of the Universe" he rules you too, I'd probably be like "he/she doesn't have the jurisdiction!" So what give's Jesus the jurisdiction? And you say the benefit is for us, but I still don't get how this benefited us and our alien friends cause they don't even know who Jesus is. How do we know one of their own didn't die for them in the same manner and is laying claim to this "Suzerain of the universe" title as well? What problem did it change or fix in humanity that was wrong that we still don't have today?

If it becomes true that humanity are not God's only children, then the concept of humanity will have to be expanded to include this "life on other planets." If that's the case, then the avatar of the "Savior of Humanity" will, likewise have to be expanded to include the ones of this "life on other planets."