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WHERE IS THE SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS GOD'S 4th COMMANDMENT IS ABOLISHED?

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
The fourth commandment reads: “Remember the Sabbath day to set it apart as holy. For six days you may labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; on it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, or your male servant, or your female servant, or your cattle, or the resident foreigner who is in your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth and the sea and all that is in them, and he rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and set it apart as holy." Exodus 20:8-11
I realize that I'm being picky here, but it needs to be pointed out that no where in Exodus 20 does it label this "the fourth commandment." That is the protestant and Jewish tradition. For Catholics, this is the third commandment.
 

jimb

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
why do you insult fiction? it is a wonderful genre of literature. Is the message of teh Good Samaritan any less powerul knowing that there was not a historical good samaritan?

a) The Bible is not fiction.
b) Does your unbelief cause you to think that there actually was no good Samaritan?
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
The Pharisees criticized Jesus because, in their opinion, Jesus was violating the Sabbath. Picking grain heads and eating them was a violation of the Sabbath according to the Pharisees, because they took as an iron-clad commandment: "... on it you shall not do any work".
If a person cares about keeping the sabbath, they make preparations in advance. My preparations begin on Thursday when I plan out my menu and do my shopping.

Harvesting is very definitely prohibited on the Sabbath. You cannot even claim the "its lawful to do good on teh sabbath" because nothing stopped these disciples from picking the grain on Friday.

Also, hospitality is very big in Jewish culture as it is everywhere in teh middle east. You go to any Orthodox synagogue, and they will make sure every person has somewhere do go for shabbat table. These disciples could have asked for hospitality from some family.

Basically, the excuses Christians make for this passage are pretty worthless.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
I realize that I'm being picky here, but it needs to be pointed out that no where in Exodus 20 does it label this "the fourth commandment." That is the protestant and Jewish tradition. For Catholics, this is the third commandment.

The numbering is different because the Catholic order follows the Decalogue. in Deuteronomy not Exodus.
 

jimb

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
If a person cares about keeping the sabbath, they make preparations in advance. My preparations begin on Thursday when I plan out my menu and do my shopping.

Harvesting is very definitely prohibited on the Sabbath. You cannot even claim the "its lawful to do good on teh sabbath" because nothing stopped these disciples from picking the grain on Friday.

Also, hospitality is very big in Jewish culture as it is everywhere in teh middle east. You go to any Orthodox synagogue, and they will make sure every person has somewhere do go for shabbat table. These disciples could have asked for hospitality from some family.

Basically, the excuses Christians make for this passage are pretty worthless.

It is only your opinion that "the excuses Christians make for this passage are pretty worthless". You are clearly trying to find flaws in Jesus' teaching (specifically) and Christianity (in general).

Why should anyone accept your opinion about the Sabbath and ignore Jesus' teaching?

Mark 2:23-27 [with my comments inserted and my emphasis], "One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. The Pharisees [legalistic Jews] said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?”

He answered, “Have you never read [in the Jewish Bible] what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.”

Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

Ergo, your biased explanation is worthless.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
It is only your opinion that "the excuses Christians make for this passage are pretty worthless". You are clearly trying to find flaws in Jesus' teaching (specifically) and Christianity (in general).

Why should anyone accept your opinion about the Sabbath and ignore Jesus' teaching?

Mark 2:23-27 [with my comments inserted and my emphasis], "One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. The Pharisees [legalistic Jews] said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?”

He answered, “Have you never read [in the Jewish Bible] what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.”

Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

Ergo, your biased explanation is worthless.
I'm simply making one very easy to understand point: harvesting on the sabbath breaks the law, and has no excuse.
 

jimb

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Depends which part of the bible.

The fact that it is a parable means that it is ficiton.

A parable is a simple story illustrating a moral or religious lesson. It doesn't fall under the category of fiction, as Jesus clearly explained.

Mark 13:10-13, "The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?” He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. This is why I speak to them in parables:

“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand."

If Jesus wanted everyone to understand He would not have spoken in parables. Every parable contains a spiritual truth. Those who understand have the gift of spiritual interpretation; those who don't understand do not have that gift.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
So you disagree with Jesus? Why should I accept your interpretation and not His? He was a Jew too, you know.
well first off, I don't think we have any reliable records of what Jesus actually said. I assume that a hefty does of the words that the gospels writers put into his mouth are simply things that advance their orthodoxy, with no historical reality.

But let just deal with what he was REPUTED to have said. I actually agree with many of his interpretations of the torah. It is only his statements about himself that I find objectionable.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
A parable is a simple story illustrating a moral or religious lesson. It doesn't fall under the category of fiction, as Jesus clearly explained.

Mark 13:10-13, "The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?” He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. This is why I speak to them in parables:

“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand."

If Jesus wanted everyone to understand He would not have spoken in parables. Every parable contains a spiritual truth. Those who understand have the gift of spiritual interpretation; those who don't understand do not have that gift.
"A parable is a simple fictitious story that teaches a lesson, so it is like a fable. A fable typically uses animals as characters, however, while a parable uses people. Parables are examples of allegory because they always have a meaning behind them."
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
The fourth commandment reads: “Remember the Sabbath day to set it apart as holy. For six days you may labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; on it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, or your male servant, or your female servant, or your cattle, or the resident foreigner who is in your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth and the sea and all that is in them, and he rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and set it apart as holy." Exodus 20:8-11
Yep there it is one of Gods 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is if we break it.
The Pharisees criticized Jesus because, in their opinion, Jesus was violating the Sabbath. Picking grain heads and eating them was a violation of the Sabbath according to the Pharisees, because they took as an iron-clad commandment: "... on it you shall not do any work".
Indeed it was their opinion not based on scripture. According to the scriptures (Matthew 12:1-12) the disciples were hungry and eating grain directly from the field as a meal and not working on the Sabbath. Do you know what the difference is between harvesting grain and eating some grain directly from plants in the field not taking anything more because you are hungry that was allowed under Mosaic law? The law of Moses expressly allowed the plucking ears of corn as one passed through a field (see Deuteronomy 23:25) but the Scribes and Pharisees were perverse enough to think this action forbidden on the sabbath. This prohibition was a Pharisaic rule not found in the Mosaic Law. It was a principle with the Pharisees to extend the provisions of the Law and make minute regulations over and beyond what Moses commanded, in order to avoid the possibility of transgression. Jesus responds to His accusers and gives two examples: (1.) a case of David and his companions doing something of which he comments 'which was not lawful' by eating the shew bread in the temple; and (2.) a case of Priests doing what he describes as 'desecrating the sabbath' by doing Gods work ministering to the people on the Sabbath day. His argument teaches us that God regards "mercy not sacrifice" and that He is Lord the Sabbath day and it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath. Lets not strain at the gnat to swallow a camel. Eating a grain of corn in the field because of hunger is not harvesting or working on the Sabbath. God desires mercy not sacrifice. Your interpretation of the scriptures makes Jesus a sinner and we are all then all lost because Jesus then could no longer be Gods perfect sacrifice for the sins of the world because in your mind Jesus was a sinner just like you and me? My bible does not teach this.
Unlike yourself, I believe God's word in its entirety. I do not need to rationalize or twist the meaning.
Seems there is no truth in that statement. You just called Jesus a sinner and we are all lost. That is you twisting the scriptures
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
Can you spell "legalism"???
It is not legalism to believe and obey what Gods Word says. It is unbelief and sin if you do not believe and obey what Gods Word says. James called this the dead faith of devils in James 2:15-26. According to the scriptures, genuine saving faith believes and obeys what Gods Word says (see John 3:36 compare Matthew 7:21-23).
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
Harvesting is very definitely prohibited on the Sabbath. You cannot even claim the "its lawful to do good on teh sabbath" because nothing stopped these disciples from picking the grain on Friday.
Again in Matthew 12:1-12; They were not harvesting grain. They were hungry and eating grain directly from the field as a meal which was allowed under Mosaic law (see Deuteronomy 23:25). Do you know what the difference is between harvesting grain and eating some grain directly from plants in the field not taking anything more because you are hungry? The law of Moses expressly allowed the plucking ears of corn as one passed through a field (see Deuteronomy 23:25) but the Scribes and Pharisees were perverse enough to think this action forbidden on the sabbath (man-made teachings and traditions added on top of the law). This prohibition is a Pharisaic rule not found in the Mosaic Law. It was a principle with the Pharisees to extend the provisions of the Law and make minute regulations over and beyond what Moses commanded, in order to avoid the possibility of transgression. Jesus responds to His accusers and gives two examples: (1.) a case of David and his companions doing something of which he comments 'which was not lawful' by eating the shew bread in the temple; and (2.) a case of Priests doing what he describes as 'desecrating the sabbath' by doing Gods work ministering to the people on the Sabbath day. His argument teaches us that God regards "mercy not sacrifice" and that He is Lord the Sabbath day and it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath. Lets not strain at the gnat to swallow a camel. Eating a grain of corn in the field because of hunger is not harvesting or working on the Sabbath. God desires mercy not sacrifice.
 

jimb

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
well first off, I don't think we have any reliable records of what Jesus actually said. I assume that a hefty does of the words that the gospels writers put into his mouth are simply things that advance their orthodoxy, with no historical reality.

But let just deal with what he was REPUTED to have said. I actually agree with many of his interpretations of the torah. It is only his statements about himself that I find objectionable.

Since you're a believer in Judaism, I can understand your reaction.
 
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