Which Book is the true word of God, Quran, or Bible?

[Nyingjé Tso]

Poll is missing the neither/other options

 

[stvdv]

Poll is missing the neither/other options

Neither, Both + Other

 

[Sargonski]

New Testament believers are not instructed to kill anybody.

Understood .. but what about Old Testament believers ? and what about believers in one of the Gods of the OT .. one who instructs his followers to kill .. Lord Jealous for example ? What about the worshipers of Lord Jealous - and are you not a worshiper of this God ? If not then what is the name of this God of this Group you mention who are not instructed to Kill by this God ?

Very Curious to know what the name of this God of this NT believing group you speak of .. as the name is super important right ! "Our Father - Hallowed be Thy Name" - - This is the Prayer to my God .. God of Jesus .. God of Abraham .. who is this God that you are referring to ?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

So far your only "critiquing" is an unfulfilled claim that you were able to make sense applying the 22nd Psalm to several secular situations.
Remember ? Here are the situations you said you could make the 22 Psalm apply equally to :
" a riot or a rodeo , a battle in a war from any century.... Cersei's walk of shame in Game of Thrones, the death of George Floyd or Giovanni Bruno." ( it Ain't Necessarily So) So go ahead and finish your half baked critique by showing everyone how easy is to apply the 22 Psalm to any one of those situations you claimed you could ?

All one need do is claim that the words like all bones out of joint, bulls, or holes in the hands and feet are metaphors and assign whatever meaning he chooses to them. If one wants to, he can say that that psalm foretold of the time that a rodeo clown or toreador was gored in the extremities and tossed about by a bull. It's no more of a stretch than what you're doing here trying to connect that psalm to one specific incident among many allegedly occurring to one specific person involving violence and suffering such as a victim of interrogation by the Inquisitors or the mafia.

Even if we decide that that account refers to a crucifixion, thousands were crucified. It applies to all of them as well, not just the one guy you're thinking of.

One could do the same with any of the other examples I gave. It's how religious apologetics go. One simply assigns the words any meaning he chooses. This is fact and that is allegory. This was mean literally but not that. A day is not a day except when one wants it to be. It is an age when it's a day of creation even though those days contained a morning and an evening, but it's 24 hours when it is a day of rest - from sunset to sunset.

And the meek are not meek, they're humble, which is not the same thing.

 

[Sargonski]

I have to consider the Law of Moses a little differently.

If a miracle of the Exodus occured it is understandable that harsh penalty was levied against infractions against the law delivered
at Mt. Sinai to that generation who should have known better. They witnessed the reality of Yahweh and therefore had little excuse.

I also have to consider that Moses rightly appointed judges to handle difficult cases among the large multitude.
The really hard cases were to be brought to him.
I assume that wise judges took into account all the relvant circumstances. And therefore few capital punishments took place.
We don't have a record of many.

I also have to consider that Yahweh, along with the harshest penalties, instituted atoneing offerings for absolution and remission of offenses.
There was the consecration offering, the sin offering, the trespass offering, the meal offering, etc.
Without these expiatory avenues there would have been no forgiveness of death deserving offenses.

Another consideration I must think of - God had to establish to the world both His holiness and hatred for sin and sinninhg.
Otherwise the offering of the Son of God for the sins of the world would not be so significant.
I mean it would make no sense for the Gospel of Luke to immediately follow Genesis.
I think the awfulness of sin and the divine hatred of it had to be established with such penalties as a background to
Christ eventually coming to singlehandedly open the way for forgiveness and justification of all sinners.

The particular sample of contradiction I would like to study in maybe another post.

The conclusion " without YHWH and the harshest penalties for Sin there would be no forgiveness of death deserving offenses" is quite false ..false logic - Non Sequitur fallacy .. writ large "A does not follow from B"

In addition the evil deeds of Lord YHWH and Lord Jealous - deeds that you readily admit .. have nothing to do with the God of Jesus .. nor the remission of sin.

This particular "contradiction" is perhaps the most studied .. and by far the most important .. the rock on which Jesus builds his ministry .. definitely worth study .. defiitely the answer to the question of "What is the True word of God" and " what is the word of the true God"

"Undefined Term Alert" - "True God" = The God of Jesus .. one God among many in the Bible.

The Covenant is "The Word" of a God .. that word consisting of what the follower of this God need do .. the rules to follow. Moses and the Israelites make such a Covenant with the God named YHWH .. they break that Covenant .. they make a second Covenant .. including a new set of 10 commands bearing little resemblence to the first .. this Covenant made with Lord Jealous. -- this set of tablets goes into the Ark of the Covenant .. although I think they may keep some broken pieces of the old Covenant as well. I apologize up front but the only way one can make sense of this part of the story is from a non - monotheistic perspective .. and this makes sense none of the authors of the Books nor the Israelites were monotheistic .. all believing in a multitude of Gods .. One of which is the God of Jesus

The Priesthood and Covenant of the God of Jesus however is not the God of the Aaronite Priesthood ... The God of Jesus is the God of the Priesthood of Melchi-Zedek. Just like an Israelite Messiah "annointed one of God" prior to Jesus named David .. who was also a Priest of the Order Melchi-Zedek .. The one True God .. the one True Covenant .. hallowed be the name of the God of the Priesthood of Melchi-Zedek. and seated at the right hand of the Father is Lord Justice/ Lord Righteousness -- a twin God of sorts .. called "The Prince of Peace" as ruler over the city of Piece ..

so now that you are better equiped "which book in the Bible is the word of the True God" ?

 

[BrokenBread]

I have given you the evidence mate. Watch those videos. They are Jews. Not Muslims. Both very famous Rabbis. One is very revered Jewish.

There is no "if".

You forgot to include this famous and revered Rabbi , who as you say like the majority of Rabbis also just loved to worship in a Mosque any chance he had to do so, since he worships the same god as they do.
Not to mention how thrilled the Islamists are when a Rabbi unexpectedly shows up for worship.
Such kinship & brotherhood between Islam and Jews , Oh the Joy !
No wonder they all wish "RIVER TO THE SEA" blessing to their Jewish brothers

Israel Says Rabbi Found Dead in U.A.E. Was Killed​

Story by Rory Jones, Dov Lieber
•

Israel Says Rabbi Found Dead in U.A.E. Was Murdered© Chabad.org
Amissing Jewish community leader found dead in the United Arab Emirates on Sunday was abducted and killed in an “act of antisemitic terrorism,” Israel said.
Israeli-Moldovan citizen Zvi Kogan, 28, went missing from Dubai on Thursday afternoon, prompting an investigation by Israel’s Mossad spy agency after suspicions were raised that he was abducted in an act of terrorism. Kogan, a rabbi, was an emissary of the Jewish Chabad movement to Abu Dhabi, where he lived with his wife.

Israel said on Sunday morning that Emirati authorities had found Kogan’s body, confirming fears in the local Jewish community.
“The murder of Zvi Kogan, of blessed memory, is an abhorrent act of antisemitic terrorism,” read a statement from Israel’s Prime Minister’s Office. “The State of Israel will use all means and will deal with the criminals responsible for his death to the fullest extent of the law.”
After the Hamas-led Oct. 7, 2023, attacks on southern Israel that triggered the Gaza war, Israel warned its citizens and Jews that they might be the targets of attacks abroad by Iran or Iran-linked groups, among others. Amid these concerns, Israel had warned its citizens to limit foreign travel and minimize openly identifying themselves as Israeli or Jewish.
Israel didn’t name a party responsible for Kogan’s killing, but its National Security Council said on Sunday that it believes there is a continuing threat to Israelis and Jews in the region.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/video/new...ago-by-a-friend/vi-AA1uEC4O?ocid=winp1taskbar

• 
  
  3:15

Israel suspects Uzbek citizens with ties to Iran were involved in Kogan’s abduction and killing, said a person familiar with the investigation. Iran has relied on Uzbek citizens in the past for foreign missions, the person said. The suspects are believed to have fled to Turkey, where their cars were found, the person said.
Israel has had long-running concerns about Iranian state actors trying to kill or abduct Israelis abroad. Iranian intelligence agents moved to kill Israeli tourists in Turkey in 2022, in a plot uncovered by Israeli and Turkish authorities. Iran has also tried to kill Israeli diplomats, and Iran’s closely linked group, Hezbollah, attempted to kill a former Israeli defense minister. In August, Israel issued a rare travel warning against visiting countries that border Iran, amid threats that Iran-linked actors would try to harm Israelis.

Chabad said that Kogan’s body was found on Sunday morning, in a statement condemning his “murder.” Kogan helped establish the Chabad community in the U.A.E. Israel and the Emirates first normalized relations in the 2020 Abraham Accords. Kogan worked as the supervisor ensuring the adherence to Jewish dietary laws at Dubai’s kosher supermarket, Rimon, according to two members of the local Jewish community.
Abu Dhabi’s Chabad provides Jewish religious support, including for religious ceremonies and celebrations, for the predominantly expat Jewish community in the U.A.E. and broader Gulf region, as part of a global mission to support Jewish life spanning 100 countries.
Chabad’s emissaries are known for supporting Jewish life in countries without large Jewish populations. In some countries, Chabad is the sole or main provider of kosher food or organized religious services. Some Chabad communities are forced to keep a low profile, including in Muslim countries, out of security concerns. Chabad emissaries have also been the victims of past terrorist attacks, including a deadly 2008 attack in Mumbai.

Visit The Wall Street Journal

 

[1213]

Quran says Jesus is a messenger of God, but doesn’t have a single word uttered by him?

That is interesting. Maybe the writer thought it is enough if the words are in the Bible.

 

[1213]

Nope. Again, only if the Qur'an itself points to the Bible directly and says "Words of Jesus are found in the Bible" your logic follows. Since it does not, the logic is absolutely flawed. It does not follow. Not sound.

Ok, so Quran says we should believe Jesus, but it can mean Jesus Navas, not the Bible Jesus.

I trust people understand that it was about Bible Jesus and not someone else.

 

[Sargonski]

You forgot to include this famous and revered Rabbi , who as you say like the majority of Rabbis also just loved to worship in a Mosque any chance he had to do so, since he worships the same god as they do.
Not to mention how thrilled the Islamists are when a Rabbi unexpectedly shows up for worship.
Such kinship & brotherhood between Islam and Jews , Oh the Joy !
No wonder they all wish "RIVER TO THE SEA" blessing to their Jewish brothers

Israel Says Rabbi Found Dead in U.A.E. Was Killed​

Visit The Wall Street Journal

It is sad that the we have these terrorist targeted assassinations happening in Muslim Nations .. likely conducted by Muslims .. copying what the Israeli's have been doing for many decades .. instead of turning the other cheek.

One thing you botched is the blessing ?! -- "River to the Sea" is not a Palestinian slogan as the propaganda koolaid you have be consuming might suggest. That is the Zionist Charter ..1979 - that the land be cleansed of Dirty Arabs .. Ethnic cleansing "From the River to the Sea - Israeli Sovereignty"

Funny this doublespeak done fooled folks in to thinking that was a Palestinian Slogan ... rather than the slogan of the Gaza Holocaust purveyors .. Genocide Joe included .. a self declared Zionist.

 

[Tony B]

I believe they came from humans, what now?

Humans on their own do not have the power of prophesy, it is spirit driven, either the holy spirit or demonic entities, but we can agree to disagree on this.

You provided a link which you apparently expect people to read, yet you seem not prepared to read the links of others such as @soulsurvivor
Link Edgar Cayce’s Seven Prophecies that Came True

I provided a link with a precis of the prophecies, they can be verified by the Bible itself. You provided a web page with some text, nothing more, do you understand the difference?

Certain Christians are very hypocritical when it comes to protecting their own beliefs in my view.

Where's the need to go through all of them? Even one error shows they where not the dictation of an All-knowing All-powerful God in my view.

Here is an example if an error;
Psalm 22:12-19
"all my bones are out of joint" that didn't apply to Jesus apparently yet it is claimed by Christians as fulfilled Prophecy in my view.

How do you know it didn't apply to Jesus? you deny it even happened.

So your links constitute evidence and other's links don't?

No, my links have further evidential sources, the Bible for instance, where's yours?

Ad-hominem will be received as a sub concious admission of your defeat in my view.

You can claim what you like, the facts speak for themselves. It's completely dishonest to compare your unknown un-sourced character with Biblical prophecies found in the Bible and studied and analysed for the best part of 2000 years, the comparison is laughable.

 

[Tony B]

I dismiss their claims. Is that the evidence to which you refer? I don't believe that you or they have experienced anything that isn't a part of nature. I believe that you have misunderstood those experiences. I believe that from personal experience. I once believed the same things. Later, I came to understand differently what my mental states in those years actually represented.

Hang on a minute, you claim to be an empiricist, but now you're into belief all of a sudden?

Not specific enough. There was no mention of Jesus, no date or place given, and no mention of crucifixion. Also, we don't know that anybody named Jesus was ever crucified.

Here are 13 others, prophesied and then confirmed in the Bible.

Bible Prophecy - 13 Popular Fulfilled Prophecies Signs

OK.

You claim to be an empiricist, but you're not, you believe in what suits you, and you definitely believe in things that have not been demonstrated and tested, I have other examples I can give you.

 

[Tony B]

That was a reply to, "You have no evidence of resurrection of any kind apart from hearsay reported by anonymous sources (maybe just one who was the source of that claim for all others) of unknown character, intelligence, or agenda."

Disagree. We have a lot of historical evidence for history before the oldest human alive was born better than unconfirmed anecdote from anonymous sources. We have archeological digs, we have modern creations from a century or more still standing like the pyramids and the Eiffel Tower, and we even have photographs now older than anybody currently alive.

Please tell me how you know Socrates or Plato lived with evidence beyond that telling us about Jesus, the fact is that the evidence for Jesus is far beyond that of those two people yet you undoubtedly 'know' they lived. Please tell me how carbon dating is empirically trustworthy considering it is not testable and repeatable and relies on numerous assumptions of the prevailing atmosphere and other conditions for anything tested. The history of ancient figures relies exactly on the same methods used to confirm Jesus lived, and the evidence for Jesus is way beyond anyone else in ancient history. Unless you can provide me with thousands of documents written in different languages on different continents by different people that are virtually identical, devoted to one man.

The evidence for resurrection is weaker than the evidence for Bigfoot, which besides uncorroborated claims includes photos of doubtful significance.

That is an absurd comment, evidence for figures in ancient history relies almost exclusively on documented witness testimony, and no-one is more documented than Jesus. Our modern legal system will condemn people to death on far less evidence than there is for Jesus, using logic and circumstantial evidence, even witness testimony is not required. As a photographer myself I can tell you that photographs are notoriously unreliable and easy to fake.

I don't believe the first, nor would it matter were it historical fact. An empty grave is evidence only of an empty grave, not that dead body in it came back to life.

The circumstances around the resurrection, including witness testimony from women, who were believed, in a culture that generally ignored them, is plenty. The Guards of the Tomb risked death in failing their duties, here is an excellent summary of the security and some of the evidence for the resurrection. Could you also give me examples of 12 people who were prepared to give their lives for a lie (11 of them did die horribly based on something you claim never happened) ?

The Roman Guard | Evidence For The Resurrection

What Jesus's disciples allegedly believed about a risen Christ is irrelevant just like similar belief held by modern believers is irrelevant to unbelievers.

So the fall of the roman Empire and the rise of Christianity, which significantly shaped the world is 'irrelevant'? Seriously?

And the growth of the church is also not evidence of a resurrection. The Mormon Church is quite large, but that doesn't make Joseph Smith's fantastical claims historical.

The Mormon Church would not exist if it wasn't for Christianity, and 17.5 million vs over 2 billion? Could you have picked a worse example?

I'd need something from a disinterested party, not a site dedicated to promoting Christianity. Its name "Desiring God" tells you that it's tendentious and not disinterested expository writing. Those sites are for believers looking for validation of their faith-based beliefs. They don't convince educated, critically thinking empiricists.

You're not an empiricist, and definitely not a critical thinker, you believe in things not demonstrable, testable and repeatable remember. Your claim is also a fallacy, a source in itself does not dictate the truth of something, that is determined by the evidence. At no point have you attempted to rebut the logical points made in these arguments, because you can't, and because it's easier to use logical fallacies to avoid having to do so.

Show me something from Scientific American or the NIH in support of resurrection of a three-days dead man. You can't, because no such thing exists, just religious apologetics.

This Scientific American? who published this article?

Stop Using Phony Science to Justify Transphobia

Is this where you get your 'empirical' belief's from? I'd have a think about that if I were you. Let's not forget you believe (your words) 2 billion people are delusional, or at least anyone who has had prayers answered, which will be pretty much all of them, as prayer is one of the ways we learn the supernatural exists.

Actually, you don't know any of those things for a fact. They're all very unlikely, but you can't rule the Jesus claims in or the vampire claims out.

Yes I do, I have experienced God's power and the Holy Spirit, like numerous Christians, so its definitely a fact for us, there is no evidence for vampires, except in fictional books.

I disagree. Intuition isn't reliable, and reasoning absent evidence is sterile. There is no sound argument that ends, "therefore, God."

Of course you do, because it doesn't fit your narrative, and your comment about intuition is just another one of your non empirical beliefs, and evidentially completely incorrect. Gavin De Becker is an expert and best selling author on fear and how we should react to it, which involves trusting our intuition. His book involves many examples of how people have saved their own lives by trusting their God given intuition. He is highly paid for his expertise in this area.

The Gift of Fear - Wikipedia

Disagree again. Christianity had some impact on Western thought, but it won't be a lasting impact.

This has to be the biggest understatement ever made, our societies were built on it, presumably you have heard of the Mayflower and how the USA was built?

I was discussing my values, explaining how little they had in common with the Ten Commandments, and why they didn't derive from them.

Your values (the good ones) just happen to coincide with the society you live in, so yes they did come from the ten commandments, which your society was built on. Your immorality is simply proof of your sin and the fall of man, the fact you even had to elaborate on adultery was rather telling and confirms you know that value was at odds with what is truly moral, but you just didn't care, as long as it didn't affect you, and actually it does. There is a chain reaction of bad consequences for all immoral acts. The greater the immorality in a society the more depraved it becomes, and we're seeing the fruits of that right now.

[cont.]

 

[Tony B]

Murder and adultery are bad things.

Says who? an atheist has no moral cornerstone, they believe everything is just random chance, so who is to say what is right or wrong? how do you know?

But that is hardly validation of the commandments, which do suffer from serious ambiguities and internal contradictions and have little to no moral or religious value.

I'm assuming you're an atheist? (correct me if I'm wrong) so nothing is right or wrong, it can't be, how you can have any moral values if it's all by chance and not by design? survival of the fittest right? so anything goes apparently.

 

[firedragon]

You forgot to include this famous and revered Rabbi , who as you say like the majority of Rabbis also just loved to worship in a Mosque any chance he had to do so, since he worships the same god as they do.
Not to mention how thrilled the Islamists are when a Rabbi unexpectedly shows up for worship.
Such kinship & brotherhood between Islam and Jews , Oh the Joy !
No wonder they all wish "RIVER TO THE SEA" blessing to their Jewish brothers

Israel Says Rabbi Found Dead in U.A.E. Was Killed​

Story by Rory Jones, Dov Lieber
•

View attachment 100198

Israel Says Rabbi Found Dead in U.A.E. Was Murdered© Chabad.org
Amissing Jewish community leader found dead in the United Arab Emirates on Sunday was abducted and killed in an “act of antisemitic terrorism,” Israel said.
Israeli-Moldovan citizen Zvi Kogan, 28, went missing from Dubai on Thursday afternoon, prompting an investigation by Israel’s Mossad spy agency after suspicions were raised that he was abducted in an act of terrorism. Kogan, a rabbi, was an emissary of the Jewish Chabad movement to Abu Dhabi, where he lived with his wife.

Israel said on Sunday morning that Emirati authorities had found Kogan’s body, confirming fears in the local Jewish community.
“The murder of Zvi Kogan, of blessed memory, is an abhorrent act of antisemitic terrorism,” read a statement from Israel’s Prime Minister’s Office. “The State of Israel will use all means and will deal with the criminals responsible for his death to the fullest extent of the law.”
After the Hamas-led Oct. 7, 2023, attacks on southern Israel that triggered the Gaza war, Israel warned its citizens and Jews that they might be the targets of attacks abroad by Iran or Iran-linked groups, among others. Amid these concerns, Israel had warned its citizens to limit foreign travel and minimize openly identifying themselves as Israeli or Jewish.
Israel didn’t name a party responsible for Kogan’s killing, but its National Security Council said on Sunday that it believes there is a continuing threat to Israelis and Jews in the region.

MSN

• 
  
  3:15

Israel suspects Uzbek citizens with ties to Iran were involved in Kogan’s abduction and killing, said a person familiar with the investigation. Iran has relied on Uzbek citizens in the past for foreign missions, the person said. The suspects are believed to have fled to Turkey, where their cars were found, the person said.
Israel has had long-running concerns about Iranian state actors trying to kill or abduct Israelis abroad. Iranian intelligence agents moved to kill Israeli tourists in Turkey in 2022, in a plot uncovered by Israeli and Turkish authorities. Iran has also tried to kill Israeli diplomats, and Iran’s closely linked group, Hezbollah, attempted to kill a former Israeli defense minister. In August, Israel issued a rare travel warning against visiting countries that border Iran, amid threats that Iran-linked actors would try to harm Israelis.

Chabad said that Kogan’s body was found on Sunday morning, in a statement condemning his “murder.” Kogan helped establish the Chabad community in the U.A.E. Israel and the Emirates first normalized relations in the 2020 Abraham Accords. Kogan worked as the supervisor ensuring the adherence to Jewish dietary laws at Dubai’s kosher supermarket, Rimon, according to two members of the local Jewish community.
Abu Dhabi’s Chabad provides Jewish religious support, including for religious ceremonies and celebrations, for the predominantly expat Jewish community in the U.A.E. and broader Gulf region, as part of a global mission to support Jewish life spanning 100 countries.
Chabad’s emissaries are known for supporting Jewish life in countries without large Jewish populations. In some countries, Chabad is the sole or main provider of kosher food or organized religious services. Some Chabad communities are forced to keep a low profile, including in Muslim countries, out of security concerns. Chabad emissaries have also been the victims of past terrorist attacks, including a deadly 2008 attack in Mumbai.

Visit The Wall Street Journal

Irrelevant.

 

[firedragon]

Ok, so Quran says we should believe Jesus, but it can mean Jesus Navas, not the Bible Jesus.

I trust people understand that it was about Bible Jesus and not someone else.

I didn't say the Qur'an was talking about someone else. That does not mean the Bible is God's word mate.

 

[JameScott]

At the end of the day the contents of these books are trying to instruct us to be better people, which is a good thing (Even though they are thousands of years old and out dated). Love your fellow man etc

But why does it need have such a strong reference to God, Jesus or Mohammed, we already know how to behave, it's caused so many problems.

Surely, we can use a book simply written by our fellow humans to gain knowledge? Some pragmatism! It might take the 'Mines right, yours is wrong' attitude out of it? Why wouldn't that work?

I like the way you think. So allow me to add to your point that besides God, Jesus or Mohammed is one that seeks to be like God and He hates God and his Human creatures like you and me. He is called many names but satan is common. Unfortunately, reality is not as simple as you would have it. Think of reality as a product, God is the manufacturer, He provides a manual for how to use it (Its a complicated one as you know) and how to overcome satan. So, because we have free will to choose what to do. If we follow the manual, the product works fine. If we try things our way, well...it gets messy. There is plenty of instruction about this life in the bible. the Quran has some information to. It is important to be informed because the Mines right, yours is wrong attitude starts when two contradicting "truths" are introduced. Both cannot be right. You will learn that a lie has potential for diverting people from the truth. It's a neat trick to cause the so many problems you mentioned. But you can only see if you gather the knowledge. for example, if there is a plant that can restore health and you knew nothing about it, you would not benefit from it. Those who know would. The problem here is we are discussing larger than life issues. The lack of knowledge of these things is no small matter. It has eternal significance. You are free to disregard knowledge is "eternal" is of little value to you. Free will. Here, is a topic about two books discussing these vital matters. the problem is they contradict each other. I hope this sheds some light on why it is important to determine these matters. Sitting on the fence does not work.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Humans on their own do not have the power of prophesy

Sure we do. At the mundane level of daily life, we all make correct predictions every day. I was able to correctly prophecy this morning that we would leave the house about 8:45 for breakfast, where and what that would be, that we would shop next door thereafter, most of what we would buy (we had a shopping list), and when we would get home - and it all came to pass as predicted just like the two previous Sunday mornings, when we followed the same schedule and agenda.

This was a low-quality prophecy because though specific, it predicted nothing uncommon, and it was self-fulfilling. We made it happen.

But the scientific prophesies I gave you were high-quality prophecies, as they were even more specific than my breakfast prophecy, much less likely, and could not be fulfilled except by nature at its discretion.

Now look at what you offer in comparison:

Here are 13 others, prophesied and then confirmed in the Bible.

Bible Prophecy - 13 Popular Fulfilled Prophecies Signs

I'm quite familiar with the Bible. I'm a former Christian, a good learner, and have a good memory, so, I am aware that there is no high-quality prophecy in the Bible.

Hang on a minute, you claim to be an empiricist, but now you're into belief all of a sudden?

I guess you see a contradiction there. Of course I have beliefs about how the world works and how it affects me and others. I come by them empirically.

Maybe you think that belief is weaker than knowledge. I don't. Knowledge is belief. That which is considered to be true is believed to be true.

You claim to be an empiricist, but you're not, you believe in what suits you, and you definitely believe in things that have not been demonstrated and tested, I have other examples I can give you.

No, I have strict criteria for belief. My belief set is a collection of ideas believed to the degree that the quality and quantity of the available relevant evidence support. Some ideas are considered unassailably correct, some are deemed very likely correct, some probably correct, etc.

Please tell me how you know Socrates or Plato lived with evidence

I don't know that they lived. It also doesn't matter whether they lived or not. Somebody wrote the words attributed to them, and their value doesn't depend on whether the writer was named Plato or Socrates.

the fact is that the evidence for Jesus is far beyond that of those two people

The evidence may be comparable - not "far beyond" - but only the evidence that the Gospels are probably legend (historical fiction) and not entirely myth. Jesus and Plato probably both lived, but the importance of answering that correctly is zero. The words attributed to both survive whoever wrote them.

Same with Shakespeare. Some think he was a man with another name. Some think a woman. Some think that there were more than one author writing as Shakespeare. Does it matter? If you like the plays and sonnets, that doesn't change whatever the answer.

Please tell me how carbon dating is empirically trustworthy

I would send you to university for that answer if you want a thorough answer and the foundation necessary to understand it. If that's not practical, get yourself an undergraduate college text and study that, although you will still likely need some foundation to understand it.

If you'd be satisfied with just more superficial knowledge, you can try an Internet site such as All courses | OPEN-LMS :

Accelerator Mass Spectrometry Radiocarbon Dating for Heritage and Forensic Science​

Course categoryNuclear Techniques​

The objective of the course is to provide a comprehensive proficiency on Accelerator Mass spectrometry (AMS) radiocarbon dating technique and its applications in the field of Heritage and Forensic Sciences. This course will start with basics, progressing to more advanced considerations of the technique.​

​

This course is made of six modules and covers​

• Fundamentals in radiocarbon dating
• Sample processing for radiocarbon dating
• Analysis and interpretation of the radiocarbon data
• Radiocarbon dating for forensics applications
• Radiocarbon dating for Heritage Science
• Overview of other dating methods, their applicability, and limitations

This course is directed to young professionals, post-graduate and under-graduate students.​

​

Less useful would be to use Google or an AI source, but better than asking anonymous Internet sources like me, since I'm not as knowledgeable about the subject as the resources I've already directed you to, and not motivated to teach you what I do know.

I'll tell you what I'll do for you. I'll give you an AI link, a query for it, and the conclusion it generated:

"Is carbon dating is empirically trustworthy?"

"In conclusion, while no scientific method is without limitations, when applied correctly and with appropriate calibration, carbon dating is considered empirically trustworthy. Its contributions to our understanding of history and prehistory are invaluable and well-documented within the scientific community."

That is an absurd comment, evidence for figures in ancient history relies almost exclusively on documented witness testimony

That was in response to, "The evidence for resurrection is weaker than the evidence for Bigfoot, which besides uncorroborated claims includes photos of doubtful significance."

You moved the goalpost from evidence for resurrection to evidence for a historical Jesus, and I'm not sure that the evidence for the latter is any better than evidence for resurrection or Bigfoot. In every case except Bigfoot, you only have words, which are only evidence that those words were spoken or written by somebody - not that they are correct or even that they were believed by their sources (with Bigfoot, you get a photo, too, which is why I considered that evidence slightly better than the evidence for resurrection, for which there is no photo).

So the fall of the roman Empire and the rise of Christianity, which significantly shaped the world is 'irrelevant'?

You (offered as evidence for resurrection): "Jesus' disciples had real experiences with one whom they believed was the risen Christ."

Me: "What Jesus's disciples allegedly believed about a risen Christ is irrelevant just like similar belief held by modern believers is irrelevant to unbelievers."

It doesn't matter what Jesus' disciples believed about Jesus. It barely matters what it is said they believed, which might be different. And neither make resurrection possible. Biological and cellular death are irreversible, and there is no evidence supporting a belief in miracles or magic.

Our modern legal system will condemn people to death on far less evidence than there is for Jesus

Maybe in Alabama or Mississippi if the defendant doesn't look like the jury.

If an attempt were made to introduce your evidence for Jesus's resurrection into a trial, I expect that it wouldn't be allowed except possibly Jesus' dying words as a deathbed confession, because it's hearsay.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

The circumstances around the resurrection, including witness testimony from women, who were believed, in a culture that generally ignored them, is plenty. The Guards of the Tomb risked death in failing their duties, here is an excellent summary of the security and some of the evidence for the resurrection. Could you also give me examples of 12 people who were prepared to give their lives for a lie (11 of them did die horribly based on something you claim never happened) ?

The only evidence you have that such people said and did what you claim is the words of anonymous authors of unknown character and agenda. We don't know what the alleged eyewitnesses if they existed actually heard or saw, just what the Bible writers felt like writing.

The Mormon Church would not exist if it wasn't for Christianity

As irrelevant to my point as saying that neither would exist without Judaism:

Here what you responded nonresponsively to: "And the growth of the church is also not evidence of a resurrection. The Mormon Church is quite large, but that doesn't make Joseph Smith's fantastical claims historical."

I say that your response is nonresponsive because it doesn't address my words preceding it. A responsive answer is one that says that you agree when you do and where and why you don't when you don't. Your comment does neither.

You're not an empiricist, and definitely not a critical thinker, you believe in things not demonstrable, testable and repeatable remember.

So you keep claiming, but a claim is not an argument, without which, the comment needs no refutation beyond, "I disagree."

a source in itself does not dictate the truth of something, that is determined by the evidence

That was in response to, "I'd need something from a disinterested party, not a site dedicated to promoting Christianity. Its name "Desiring God" tells you that it's tendentious and not disinterested expository writing. Those sites are for believers looking for validation of their faith-based beliefs. They don't convince educated, critically thinking empiricists"

You're alluding to the genetic fallacy, which is rejecting an argument's soundness because of its source. This is not that. I am not calling the apologetics arguments either right or wrong. I'm saying that the source is deemed dishonest, and I need you to find a source with no religious agenda that agrees and cite it instead. One can't evaluate a dishonest argument just by looking at it.

Here's a comment I posted about two years ago that explains:

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If one can't evaluate himself directly, the mathematics should not be taken seriously if it comes from an apologetics site. Their agenda, methods, and values are incompatible with humanism or science.​

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In case you want to call that the genetic fallacy, I would disagree. For starters, that occurs when one says the argument is wrong because of its source. That is not what I am saying. I am saying that I don't trust the source and am unwilling to do the necessary fact checking to make an assessment of whether I buy the argument or not. That came home to me when reading some creationist apologetics arguing that human evolution from the ancestors of other extant great apes was impossible, since the other apes all have 24 pairs of chromosomes and man only 23. The argument was that if these other apes had a common ancestor, it could not have been an ancestor of man, since no chromosome dropout mutation is survivable, much less selected for. I happen to have been aware of human chromosome 2, and could rapidly reject the argument, but what if I hadn't been? The argument presented was sound. The conclusions followed from the premises provided. The facts provided could be confirmed, and the subsequent reasoning flawless. Yet the conclusion was false anyway.​

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It's the same argument for not going to a known or suspected dishonest investment counselor. He makes his presentation, and it seems like a good investment. The facts provided can be corroborated. If he were a trusted source of investment advice, you might take his advice based on that sound presentation. But this guy? Don't even listen to him. And that's not the genetic fallacy, either, since I'm not concluding that he is lying, just that I don't care to find out if he is or put him to the test.​

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At no point have you attempted to rebut the logical points made in these arguments, because you can't, and because it's easier to use logical fallacies to avoid having to do so.

I just explained why. Find me the same argument for resurrection from a mutually acceptable source. For me, that would be an academic site or source with no other agenda than to teach what is known to academia.

I have experienced God's power and the Holy Spirit

I don't believe you. I do believe that you have had experiences that you understood that way, because I did as well in my Christian years, but later came to realize that I was misinterpreting endogenous brain states as sensing something separate from my brain and mind.

there is no evidence for vampires, except in fictional books.

The evidence is of the same low quality for each - words alone from believers.

Gavin De Becker is an expert and best selling author on fear and how we should react to it, which involves trusting our intuition. His book involves many examples of how people have saved their own lives by trusting their God given intuition.

You're giving me quite a few nonseaponsive replies here. I wrote, "I disagree. Intuition isn't reliable, and reasoning absent evidence is sterile. There is no sound argument that ends, "therefore, God."

Did you think that your comment was a refutation of that? If not, why did you include it in this discussion?

Responsive dissent looks like, "Intuition IS reliable and here's my evidenced argument in support of that," "Reasoning absent evidence in NOT sterile and here's my evidenced argument in support of that," and/or "But there are sound arguments that conclude 'therefore, God' and here's one now."

Answers like yours are no more germane that telling me that you like turtles. Watch this kid answer a question about what he thinks about his zombie makeup with an irrelevant, nonresponsive comment:

Your values (the good ones) just happen to coincide with the society you live in, so yes they did come from the ten commandments

But they don't coincide with mainstream American values. There is some overlap, but that's has nothing to do with the Bible or those mainstream American values that you think my value come from. Those same overlapping values are found in virtually every culture since long before it was introduced to its first Bible.

My values ALL come from the application of reason to my moral intuitions. It's how I know which Christian values to reject.

Various Christians at various times have tried to take credit for the achievements of secular humanism, which is a repudiation of faith and received morals. Like you, they have tried to take credit for the values of those rejecting Christianity. They have also tried to take credit for the emergence of science from superstition, modernity from the Middle Ages, the US Constitution, and humanism itself:

"It is no credit to the orthodox that they do not now believe all the absurdities that were believed 150 years ago. The gradual emasculation of the Christian doctrine has been effected in spite of the most vigorous resistance, and solely as the result of the onslaughts of freethinkers." - Bertrand Russell

"We hear a Pope saying slave trading is wrong, and see him sending an expedition to Africa to stop it. The texts remain; it is the practice that has changed. Why? Because the world has corrected the Bible. The Church never corrects it; and also never fails to drop in at the tail of the procession--and take the credit of the correction. As she will presently do in this instance." - Mark Twain

 

[Link]

And yet... in Islam the founder is revered. In some places Quran is revered and some killed for bringing harm to the book. The last prophet, his words are more the basis of the religion, including the notion of corruption in other books. Or perhaps you perceive Islam differently.

Revering and exalting is fine as long as we don't go beyond the limit of exalting into that of worship. The highest type of exalting is worship, which is meant for God. A big theme in the Quran is we don't obey the Messenger for sake of Mohammad (s) but rather we obey him (Mohammad (s)) to obey God.

This is why 42:23 says that the reward disbelievers accuse Mohammad (s) of seeking from viewpoint he is false, what does that amount to really, but love, afflection and recognition of the true station of Mohammad (s) and his family (a), and that it terms it earning goodness that God would increase in the beauty of. Really obedience is towards God while what is owed to them is simply loving their exalted nature and affection for them. We obey them to obey God. If we begin to believe in God for the sake of obeying them, and create an authority of God for the sake of following the religion of Mohammad (s), then we have priority backwards.

 

[JameScott]

Which means again Jesus himself.

John 1
"In the begining was the Word(principle of reason), and the Word was with God , and the Word was God"

Did the Bible existed since the begining?
Like billion years ago?
I don't think so...

It is pretty weird how you Westerners try to make something more of what actually it is.

Not just Christians , but all in general.


True

Church Fathers were inspired by the message before The Bible was defined as such and did what was neccessary to pass the message to the nwxt generarion
And 2000 years later , everyone is able to discuss it , because of that fact.


Which again is Jesus.

Read Matthew 10


Yeah , but they both differ in how they are written.

Quran is one book , The Bible is a collection of many books that were written in different time.

Genesis and Acts are two different books..

Regards

Orthodoxy

Oh Dear!
Dimi95, allow me to refer you the comment I was responding to.
I was responding to soulsurvivor who asked, "Is this a trick question? Neither book is the 'true' word of God. Both have been written by men"
I appreciate your comment, I think you what you mentioned is well said. I admire the enthusiasm. What's better is to keep it with in context so we understand each other better. For example, Do you believe the Quran represents the truth as opposed to The bible?