Which Book is the true word of God, Quran, or Bible?

[Tony B]

You have no evidence of resurrection of any kind apart from hearsay reported by anonymous sources (maybe just one who was the source of that claim for all others) of unknown character, intelligence, or agenda. I can't imagine weaker evidence for an extraordinary claim.

This is akin to claiming there is no evidence for any ancient historical event prior to current living generations. There are 3 well established truths that demonstrate the event happened;

1. The tomb in which Jesus was buried was discovered empty by a group of women on the Sunday following the crucifixion.
2. Jesus' disciples had real experiences with one whom they believed was the risen Christ.
3. As a result of the preaching of these disciples, which had the resurrection at its center, the Christian church was established and grew.

Virtually all scholars who deal with the resurrection, whatever their school of thought, assent to these three truths. We will see that the resurrection of Christ is the best explanation for each of them individually. But then we will see, even more significantly, that when these facts are taken together we have an even more powerful case for the resurrection--because the skeptic will not have to explain away just one historical fact, but three. These three truths create a strongly woven, three chord rope that cannot be broken.

This is covered in further detail here;

Historical Evidence for the Resurrection

Vampires are very comparable to gods. Make a list of all things you consider nonexistent fictions and you will find that gods are indistinguishable from what you call nonexistent.

Jesus exists and was resurrected, vampires have never existed, it's that simple.

Offended or not by the comparison, your evidence for gods is no better than the vampirist's evidence for his beliefs. Neither can be ruled in or out. For the empiricist, who needs compelling evidence to believe, that means unbelief in both.

I don't get offended, the evidence for Jesus, both logical and otherwise is dealt with in great detail by Lee Strobel's multi-million bestseller 'A case for Christ' I urge anyone looking for an answer to this to read it. Strobel was a highly respected journalist and rabid atheist who spent two years trying to prove Christ didn't exist and wasn't resurrected, on the back of his wife's faith, he was subsequently baptised and is now a Pastor.

Even empiricists don't agree on this, which is ironic;

the empiricist John Locke admitted that some knowledge (e.g. knowledge of God's existence) could be arrived at through intuition and reasoning alone.

Empiricism - Wikipedia

Of course john Locke is entirely right on this as well, and the Bible itself spells it out for you.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Romans 1:20

The Ten Commandments are meaningless to me. That I happen to share some values with them is meaningless. The proscription against murdering, lying, and stealing are nearly universal in human culture with obvious societal benefit where they are observed.

It may be meaningless to you but Western civilization was built around them and though society seems to be determined to move away from them, and God's laws, that's not working out too well is it.

And I don't care about adultery except to say that it's not for me or my wife. If we felt otherwise, then we would engage in it. And though I consider it dangerous if you're doing it secretly and betraying one or more people, and I have no respect for that behavior, I also don't mind if people choose to go that route - a nice example of me NOT getting my moral precepts form that or any other holy book.

It's interesting how you frame everything about you, it says so much whilst not actually being germane to the point

There is no reason to believe that the supernatural is a thing. The idea is incoherent. Is it causally connected to nature? If so, it's another aspect of nature as yet undiscovered as the world of bacteria, DNA and subatomic physics once was. If not, then it cannot affect our world or our experience of it, making whatever you are thinking of irrelevant whether it exists in some sense or not.

Any claim you make to feel anything not empirically demonstrable is essentially irrelevant, don't claim to me you have any kind of emotion. You can choose to dismiss the evidence from millions of people who have experienced the supernatural (including myself) but that doesn't mean you are right, just that you claim you are, which doesn't count for anything really. I can claim knowledge of the supernatural knowing I'm in the company of millions of others who have also experienced it, that counts for quite a lot IMHO.

Supernatural is a linguistic invention and sleight-of-hand to warehouse the nonexistent in order to explain why it/they can't be detected while simultaneously claiming that denizens of this realm can and do modify our reality, which of course would make them detectible through that effect. That's the incoherent (internally self-contradictory) part.

See above.

Many of those prophecies are too nonspecific to say that any actual event in history corresponds to them. Some are too mundane to be impressive. Some have been deliberately fulfilled after the fact by people who knew these prophecies.

Here's nice a nice example from seven posts above this one on the same page that I presume you offer as an example of precisely fulfilled prophecy judging by your final sentence and the words following that which you offer as exact fulfillment. Sorry, but that's what I mean by nonspecific. It could be applied to a riot or a rodeo or a battle in a war from any century. It can be said to describe Cersei's walk of shame in Game of Thrones. It could describe somebody being in the middle East being stoned to death or the death of George Floyd or Giovanni Bruno.

Well obviously you didn't think that answer through, because the nature of the punishment, crucifixion, is very specific so how could it have been someone 'stoned to death'? an entirely different thing, this description was also made centuries prior to the punishment even existing, so how was that possible, a random guess? lucky dip?

Such is nonspecific prophecy. It's a verbal Rorschach test. It shows the susceptible whatever it is that they want it to show.

Not to the Jews.

That's also true of Islam and Baha'ism, also faiths worshiping their versions of the god of Abraham.

So yes, Christianity is a spinoff of Judaism, followed by Islam then Baha'ism. We could say that Judaism was Happy Days, Christianity Laverne and Shirley, Islam Mork and Mindy, and Baha'ism would then be Joannie loves Chachi. The spinoffs all owe their existence to the original.

We could also say you don't experience any emotion, you can try and mimic what you believe is an emotion but you can't prove what you felt, ergo I don't believe you, see how it works? So many things can't exist in your world that millions of people will tell you must exist, I pity you, what a barren self obsessed wasteland your existence must be.

 

[Watchmen]

Where’s the choice for “neither”?

 

[Tony B]

Name one prophecy please with chapter and verse.

Fill your boots;

Bible Prophecy - 13 Popular Fulfilled Prophecies Signs

 

[Tony B]

Some Prophets can make some correct prophecies -Edgar Cayce for instance. That does not make what they say the 'word of God'.

Anyway, which specific prophecies are you talking about?

You didn't answer the question, I have no idea of the prophecy you claim because you didn't give any details so I can't respond to that claim. Here are just a few prophesies fulfilled:

Bible Prophecy - 13 Popular Fulfilled Prophecies Signs

 

[soulsurvivor]

Psalm 22:12-19
Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.

They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.

I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.

My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.

For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.

They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.


The Truth scripture is verified in the exactness of fulfilled Prophecy.
That there is only one book that even dares to make a prophecy let alone. many of them and see them fulfilled ought to tell you something.

" In the tenth century BC, several centuries before crucifixion was invented by the Assyrians or employed by the Romans, both Israel’s King David and the prophet Zechariah predicted the death of Israel’s Messiah in words that perfectly depict that mode of execution.
They said that the Messiah would have his hands and feet pierced by Gentiles, suffer severe dehydration, his side would be pierced, and (contrary to customary procedure in crucifixion) none of his bones would be broken (Psalm 22 and 34:20). Psalm 22 also predicted that during the Messiah’s execution people would stare, gloat, mock and insult him, divide up his clothes, and cast lots for one of his garments.2
Historians and New Testament writers confirm the fulfillment of each of these prophecies when Jesus of Nazareth died on a Roman cross. A spear was thrust into his side to verify that he was, indeed, dead, and this finding eliminated the need for the typical breaking of bones.

I think these are the words of David. They may imply the crucifixion of Jesus, but that does not make the whole book (or books) the 'word of God'.
For instance, here is list of prophecies by Edgar Cayce that seem to have come true. But his words are definitely not the 'word of God'. Edgar Cayce’s Seven Prophecies that Came True

 

[Tony B]

I think these are the words of David. They may imply the crucifixion of Jesus, but that does not make the whole book (or books) the 'word of God'.
For instance, here is list of prophecies by Edgar Cayce that seem to have come true. But his words are definitely not the 'word of God'. Edgar Cayce’s Seven Prophecies that Came True

It is well understood in the Christian world that demonic entities exist and can and do trick people and give some people powers to foretell. The Bible is quite clear about this, so this, if true, doesn't refute the Christian prophesies that have come to pass. At present however, your web page is just text with no evidence. The prophesies in the Bible were documented, read and understood often centuries prior to the events, and required other events to unfold for them to happen.

 

[BrokenBread]

I think these are the words of David. They may imply the crucifixion of Jesus, but that does not make the whole book (or books) the 'word of God'.
For instance, here is list of prophecies by Edgar Cayce that seem to have come true. But his words are definitely not the 'word of God'. Edgar Cayce’s Seven Prophecies that Came True

It is obviously prophetic and that is the point .
We are talking about Quran vs Bible here .
How about we do this never mind whether any prophecy given in either book is true , lets just take that issue off the table for now, lets just start with the fact that first of all both books actually make an attempt at prophecy .
I have just given one attempt from the bible, now you give one attempt from the Quran ?
You have my word that I won't even haggle over whether or not the prophecy has come true.
Your turn ?

 

[Feedmysheep]

If you think it contains an error of fact and you are correct, you can falsify my claim with a counterargument.

I said that "you have no evidence of resurrection of any kind apart from hearsay reported by anonymous sources." If that claim is incorrect, you should be able to demonstrate as much. You should be able to produce better evidence that doesn't fit that description.

Evidence of something momentous having taken place during the time it was proclaimed that Jesus rose from the dead:

For a thousand years plus Jerusalem Jews had held Saturday Sabbath as the most important sacred day of the week.
What is your explanation that within weeks of crucifixion of Jesus there was a sudden dramatic change of practice in Jerusalem.
Suddenly the day following the 7th day of the week became the more important day they called "the Lord's day"?
That is thousands of Jerusalem Jews abruptly came together to celebrate the resurrection of Jesus.

I do not offer this as proof. I offer it as evidence that SOMETHING cataclysmic happened to cause the change in custom.
In your next post you offer your explanation for the sudden change.

But you can't, because the claim is correct.

Another piece of evidence for something miraculous having occured in relation the life of Jesus:

For thousand plus years Jews regarded anyone who was hung on a tree for execution to be cursed.
Of course any divinely cursed individual could not possibly be the Messiah of Israel.
For the law of Moses had said -

And if in a man there is a sin, a cause worthy of death, and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree;
His corpse shall not remain overnight on the tree, but you must bury him on that day. For he who is hanged is accursed of God, and you shall not defile your land, which Jehovah your God gives you as an inheritance. (Deut. 21:22,23)

Within weeks of the crucifixion of Jesus on a tree a sudden change occured in thousands of Jerusalem Jews.
Now they believed that the Nazarene itenerant rabbi was the Son of God FOLLOWING his being nailed to a Roman cross.
What is your alternative theory as to what caused this abrupt alteration of change as to WHO could be Israel's Messiah?

Most NT scholars of an atheist or agnostic leaning are willing to confirm the letter to the Galatians was written by Paul.
(Though there are plenty of sceptics to other letters traditionally ascribed to Paul)
Paul wrote in his Galatian epistle - Christ has redeemed us out of the curse of the law, having become a curse on our behalf; because it is written, “Cursed is everyone hanging on a tree”;

You don't have to take it as sacred text. Like sceptical New Testament scholars you can take it as a historical document only.
It reflects that the crucified man was believed to have been cursed by a student of Gemaliel a prominent Jewish teacher.

What caused thousands of Jerusalem Jews to suddenly consider an executed man under a curse could be the Messiah?

Here's the thing about a correct idea: It can't be successfully refuted. All one can do is reject it out of hand without falsifying it as you have done here - an act of faith.

On this point I would say our faith means nothing if God is not faithFUL.
The faith of people is only one half of the reason for the survival of the Christian tradition.
The other half is the FAITHFULNESS of the Christ in whom faith has been put.

Let me ask you. No doubt there is such a thing as propaganda. But do you believe there could be such a thing as true propaganda?
I have read propaganda about the Holocaust. I believe it is propaganda based on something that truly occured.

I believe people wrote of the moon landing with an agenda in mind to do so.
But I think regardless of the agenda, they write about something which did occur.
Mind you though for a few years I DID seriously intertain the possibility that it didn't occur.
And I saw it on TV in 1969. Latter the conspiracy theorists offer good reasons for scepticism.
I think I have had second thoughts that it did happen though there may be precautionary phony footage.

Anyway, my point is that propaganda with an agenda is not necessarily based on things which didn't happen.
There is such a thing as witnesses wanting to pass on something real big to future generations to believe.

That you can't refute it doesn't establish the idea as correct. Perhaps somebody else can successfully refute it. But the last plausible, unrebutted claim stands as a presumptively correct answer until it is successfully refuted, and that is my claim above in this case.

If I am incorrect that you have not fortified yourselfup front to disqualifiy ANY supporting evidence, I would recommend you
listen to Dr. Gary Habermos's Minimal Facts arguement. There are many versions he gave of it. I will try to find you one that is not
too long to hear.

The Resurrection Argument That Changed a Generation of Scholars | Gary Habermas at UCSB

Now if that is too long for you start with one of his shorter lectures.

Five Resurrection Facts That Occurred by 36 A.D.​

And if you have a video that you would recommend to me for your view. I'd check it out in reciprocation.
I do listen to many debates.

Then you misunderstood what you read. I said that you existing evidence is inadequate. Present compelling evidence of Jesus' resurrection and I'll be the first to say, "My bad. Praise the Lord."

As if there is something wrong with praising the Lord.
I am only 75 years old. But one thing I have learned in life. Eventually you're going to put your trust in somebody.

I do not know what "blind faith" means. I believe with convincing evidence externally and internally.
If I had ten lives to live I would not want to waste one of them not believing in the words and life of Jesus of Nazareth.

What you have is the opposite of compelling evidence, and it is insufficient to justify belief in resurrection according to academic standards for evaluating evidence.

Your alternative theories to the Jerusalem Jews' sudden change in tradition I will examine in your reply.

There is good reason to believe that reversing biological death (distinct from things like sudden death and brain death) is impossible short of magic, and we have no good reason to believe that magic (miracles) occurs.

I disagree. I think if there is anything at all in existence, it is evidence that something has existed eternally.
And that which has existed eternally has to be infinitely powerful to have brought everything else into existence.
I mean just look at the uninverse in both its macro and micro level. We cannot ascertain the end of it in either direction.
So its source of existence must be of a capability, knowledge, wisdom unfathomably powerful.

Why should it amaze me that if it serves God's purpose, He should raise a man from the dead.
And you have to admit, Jesus was not just any man. Actually His resurrection by a miracle is consistent, imo, with the power of His personality.

 

[soulsurvivor]

It is well understood in the Christian world that demonic entities exist and can and do trick people and give some people powers to foretell. The Bible is quite clear about this, so this, if true, doesn't refute the Christian prophesies that have come to pass. At present however, your web page is just text with no evidence. The prophesies in the Bible were documented, read and understood often centuries prior to the events, and required other events to unfold for them to happen.

So other people's prophecies are demonic prophecies, your own prophecies are divine prophecies. Very convenient!

 

[Link]

Muslims: Islam is the true faith, Quran is the word of God. Christianity is false. Bible is corrupted.

Christians: Christianity is the true faith, the Bible is the word of God, Islam is false, the Quran is not true.

Fact: Both the Bible and the Quran contradict on major points, therefore both cannot be true.
Question: Which one is the true word of God?

The Gospels are mostly intact and from God. The Torah and books between that and Gospels are largely corrupted and there is a contradiction between two themes.

The Quran to me presents a more reasonable God, more eloquent God, more logical and more clean in the way he relates his religion to people. Very consistent.

So for example, Judaism is particular to people selected and a covenant uniquely taken to the children of Israel and Christianity depends on Jesus as the central role, Islam as presented in Quran shows the religion is consistent from Adam (a) till now. The religion structure is not exactly same in minute details but overall archetype structure.

I think God would present the same religion in all times. Again, small details can change, but overall structure the same. Particularly, I find the reasoning and wisdom of how the chosen ones come together as a group called "a family" which are closer to each other then all others very reasonable.

The Quran shows while we should exalt the exalted ones, we shouldn't make it all about one in particular as opposed to all of them, and to not distinguish between, we don't make the founder more important then the successor or the successor of the successor.

This keeps people balanced, and not make all about a person, rather than God. They are rather seen means to God.

 

[Tony B]

So other people's prophecies are demonic prophecies, your own prophecies are divine prophecies. Very convenient!

You said it didn't come from God, not me, if it doesn't come from God then it comes from Satan, the only other entity with such power on earth. You also haven't provided any evidence for your claims of this character either, how convenient.

 

[danieldemol]

You said it didn't come from God, not me, if it doesn't come from God then it comes from Satan, the only other entity with such power on earth.

False dichotomy, seems like you are unprepared to consider that things written by human hands may have come from humans in my view.

You also haven't provided any evidence for your claims of this character either, how convenient.

He provided a link. And you haven't provided evidence that supports your claim, only evidence that refutes it in my view.

 

[Tony B]

False dichotomy, seems like you are unprepared to consider that things written by human hands may have come from humans in my view.

It seems you don't understand the meaning of that term, did you or did you not state these alleged prophesies did not come from God? yes or no?

He provided a link. And you haven't provided evidence that supports your claim, only evidence that refutes it in my view.

I already provided a link explaining 13 of them, here it is again;

Bible Prophecy - 13 Popular Fulfilled Prophecies Signs

There are many books written on the Biblical prophecies for over a thousand years, what is it about these fulfilled prophecies you dispute? Where's your evidence of this random unknown character's prophecies? Try and argue honestly, you're coming across as very dishonest so far.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Sounds pretty easy to do

Yes, critiquing claims that biblical prophecy indicates divine prescience is very easy.

You have no high-quality prophecy there at all. High quality prophecy - the kind that can convince a critical thinker - needs to be specific, detailed and unambiguous. Optimally, the time and place are specified. It also needs to prophecy something unexpected, unlikely or unique. What happened in 1948 was a self-fulfilling prophecy.

There was a movie called "Frequency" in which Dennis Quaid's character's son living in the future tells his father living in the past the outcome of game five of what is for the father the as yet unfinished 1969 World Series from the son's 1998 vantage point using a ham radio in order to convince his father that he really knows his father's future. Here's what the son said to the father:

"Well, game five was the big one. It turned in the bottom of the 6th. We were down 3-0. Cleon Jones gets hit on the foot - left a scuffmark on the ball. Clendenon comes up. The count goes to 2 and 2. High fastball. He nailed it. Weis slammed a solo shot in the 7th to tie. Jones and Swoboda scored in the 8th. We won, Pop."​

Then the father sees it all play out live on a TV in a bar. Is that convincing? Once one rules out a taped delay broadcast of the game, yes, it is. Why? Because it is very specific and predicted something very unlikely.

Biblical prophecy is weak by comparison, since it doesn't identify individuals or specific times or places - just nonspecific notions like people will scorn and reject you which you probably see this post as fulfilling. You can't convince anybody of anything with biblical prophecy except that it's easy to write weak prophecy.

Scientific prophecy, by contrast, is strong in both senses, being not only specific, but predicting the unlikely, as when Einstein predicted the gravitational lensing of starlight grazing past our sun and Higgs predicted a specific particle with specific physical parameters which was found to be exactly what was predicted. Predicting an eclipse eclipses biblical prophecy in its specificity. The Bible can't compare to that:

"Think of how many religions attempt to validate themselves with prophecy. Think of how many people rely on these prophecies, however vague, however unfulfilled, to support or prop up their beliefs. Yet has there ever been a religion with the prophetic accuracy and reliability of science?" - Carl Sagan

Of course the fact that you don't dare try to actual follow thru and create an actual comparable scenario that can even scratch the surface of the harmony in the details that exists biblically between the Psalm and execution by a means that was not even known at the time the Psalm was penned clearly shows your sense of hesitation and fear in knowing how challenging actually trying to follow thru with what you say you can show us and pathetically weak any attempt to do so would be.

As just indicated, scientific prophecy is very specific and predicts things that could not have been guessed

I would also be afraid to actually try to do what I boasted about saying I can do myself , if I were you.

And what was that?

This is akin to claiming there is no evidence for any ancient historical event prior to current living generations

That was a reply to, "You have no evidence of resurrection of any kind apart from hearsay reported by anonymous sources (maybe just one who was the source of that claim for all others) of unknown character, intelligence, or agenda."

Disagree. We have a lot of historical evidence for history before the oldest human alive was born better than unconfirmed anecdote from anonymous sources. We have archeological digs, we have modern creations from a century or more still standing like the pyramids and the Eiffel Tower, and we even have photographs now older than anybody currently alive.

The evidence for resurrection is weaker than the evidence for Bigfoot, which besides uncorroborated claims includes photos of doubtful significance.

There are 3 well established truths that demonstrate the event happened;

1. The tomb in which Jesus was buried was discovered empty by a group of women on the Sunday following the crucifixion.
2. Jesus' disciples had real experiences with one whom they believed was the risen Christ.
3. As a result of the preaching of these disciples, which had the resurrection at its center, the Christian church was established and grew.

I don't believe the first, nor would it matter were it historical fact. An empty grave is evidence only of an empty grave, not that dead body in it came back to life.

What Jesus's disciples allegedly believed about a risen Christ is irrelevant just like similar belief held by modern believers is irrelevant to unbelievers.

And the growth of the church is also not evidence of a resurrection. The Mormon Church is quite large, but that doesn't make Joseph Smith's fantastical claims historical.

This is covered in further detail here;

Historical Evidence for the Resurrection

I'd need something from a disinterested party, not a site dedicated to promoting Christianity. Its name "Desiring God" tells you that it's tendentious and not disinterested expository writing. Those sites are for believers looking for validation of their faith-based beliefs. They don't convince educated, critically thinking empiricists.

Show me something from Scientific American or the NIH in support of resurrection of a three-days dead man. You can't, because no such thing exists, just religious apologetics.

Jesus exists and was resurrected, vampires have never existed, it's that simple.

Actually, you don't know any of those things for a fact. They're all very unlikely, but you can't rule the Jesus claims in or the vampire claims out.

the empiricist John Locke admitted that some knowledge (e.g. knowledge of God's existence) could be arrived at through intuition and reasoning alone.

I disagree. Intuition isn't reliable, and reasoning absent evidence is sterile. There is no sound argument that ends, "therefore, God."

It may be meaningless to you but Western civilization was built around them

Disagree again. Christianity had some impact on Western thought, but it won't be a lasting impact.

It's interesting how you frame everything about you, it says so much whilst not actually being germane to the point

I was discussing my values, explaining how little they had in common with the Ten Commandments, and why they didn't derive from them.

[cont.]

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

You can choose to dismiss the evidence from millions of people who have experienced the supernatural (including myself)

I dismiss their claims. Is that the evidence to which you refer? I don't believe that you or they have experienced anything that isn't a part of nature. I believe that you have misunderstood those experiences. I believe that from personal experience. I once believed the same things. Later, I came to understand differently what my mental states in those years actually represented.

the nature of the punishment, crucifixion, is very specific

Not specific enough. There was no mention of Jesus, no date or place given, and no mention of crucifixion. Also, we don't know that anybody named Jesus was ever crucified.

We could also say you don't experience any emotion, you can try and mimic what you believe is an emotion but you can't prove what you felt, ergo I don't believe you, see how it works?

OK.

Evidence of something momentous having taken place during the time it was proclaimed that Jesus rose from the dead:

For a thousand years plus Jerusalem Jews had held Saturday Sabbath as the most important sacred day of the week.
What is your explanation that within weeks of crucifixion of Jesus there was a sudden dramatic change of practice in Jerusalem.
Suddenly the day following the 7th day of the week became the more important day they called "the Lord's day"?
That is thousands of Jerusalem Jews abruptly came together to celebrate the resurrection of Jesus.

You haven't made the case that "within weeks of crucifixion of Jesus there was a sudden dramatic change of practice in Jerusalem."

The Sabbath antedates Christianity by centuries, and has nothing to do with Jesus. I have a better understanding of what the Sabbath represents

The Genesis creation stories were typical primitive cosmologies except for the timelines in them, which were likely added to compel a day off from work every week once the Hebrews settled and there were large central synagogues serving large areas of settlement so that the people could travel to the synagogue for instruction and to support the clergy with contributions.

There were no days of rest for able-bodied people in the nomadic days preceding civilization, and no need to give the clergy money when they were also hunters traveling with the horde. So, to facilitate this about face, a commandment was needed to support the notion of a day off and a new unit of time was created. Natural units like days, months, and years were either too close together or too long, and so the work week complete with a weekend was enshrined by claiming that their god took six days to create the world followed by a day a rest, which the Hebrews were commanded to emulate with the creation of the Sabbath.

You don't have to take it as sacred text. Like sceptical New Testament scholars you can take it as a historical document only.

I consider the Gospels legend. Some is likely historical and some invented in the decades after Jesus's death to promote the religion.

I am only 75 years old. But one thing I have learned in life. Eventually you're going to put your trust in somebody.

I already do, but it's not theists.

I think if there is anything at all in existence, it is evidence that something has existed eternally. And that which has existed eternally has to be infinitely powerful to have brought everything else into existence.

Let me guess. That thing is the god you've chosen to believe in.

Your claim is a shadow of Craig's Kalam argument, but he goes further than infinitely powerful. Look at lines 4 and 5 below. Besides being infinitely or enormously powerful, Craig adds beginningless, changeless, immaterial, timeless, spaceless, and enormously intelligent:

1. “Whatever begins to exist has a cause of its existence.”
2. “The universe began to exist.”
3. “Therefore, the universe has a cause of its existence.”
4. "If the universe has a cause of its existence, then an uncaused, personal Creator of the universe exists, who sans creation is beginningless, changeless, immaterial, timeless, spaceless, and enormously powerful and intelligent."

That's a terrible argument. Why not end it, "If the universe has a cause of its existence, then an immaterial, timeless, spaceless, and enormously powerful and intelligent1956 Buick that can morph into a giraffe exists or the universe could have come into being uncaused"? This is actually a better (more parsimonious) argument since it doesn't assume the existence of an intelligent universe creator.

you have to admit, Jesus was not just any man

I do? No I don't.

There was nothing special about Jesus. He was just another fundamentalist preacher who lived a very ordinary life preaching piety and brotherhood. That he might have been martyred doesn't make him special, just unlucky.

They're a dime a dozen in history and can be found everywhere today. My former pastor is one:

"Terry King has ministered full time since 1972. When the church Terry led in the early 70s began to grow rapidly, a study of the New Testament led him to a model of leadership development that produced paid and volunteer staff from within. Dozens of individuals were launched into vocational ministry all over the globe. In 1983 Terry transitioned into full time into leadership training in Zimbabwe and later in the Philippines. Since 1993 his base has been in Maryland, reaching across the USA and serving in 41 nations. In addition to global travel, Terry’s heart for the kingdom of God motivates him to be involved in leadership in several community organizations in his home area as well."

How is Jesus's life any different from this one apart from the fact that Paul and Constantine wanted to make Jesus a star posthumously?

 

[danieldemol]

It seems you don't understand the meaning of that term, did you or did you not state these alleged prophesies did not come from God? yes or no?

I believe they came from humans, what now?

I already provided a link explaining 13 of them, here it is again;

Bible Prophecy - 13 Popular Fulfilled Prophecies Signs

You provided a link which you apparently expect people to read, yet you seem not prepared to read the links of others such as @soulsurvivor
Link Edgar Cayce’s Seven Prophecies that Came True

Certain Christians are very hypocritical when it comes to protecting their own beliefs in my view.

There are many books written on the Biblical prophecies for over a thousand years, what is it about these fulfilled prophecies you dispute?

Where's the need to go through all of them? Even one error shows they where not the dictation of an All-knowing All-powerful God in my view.

Here is an example if an error;
Psalm 22:12-19
"all my bones are out of joint" that didn't apply to Jesus apparently yet it is claimed by Christians as fulfilled Prophecy in my view.

Where's your evidence of this random unknown character's prophecies?

So your links constitute evidence and other's links don't?

Try and argue honestly, you're coming across as very dishonest so far.

Ad-hominem will be received as a sub concious admission of your defeat in my view.

 

[BrokenBread]

Yes, critiquing claims that biblical prophecy indicates divine prescience is very easy.

So far your only "critiquing" is an unfulfilled claim that you were able to make sense applying the 22nd Psalm to several secular situations.
Remember ?
Here are the situations you said you could make the 22 Psalm apply equally to :
" a riot or a rodeo , a battle in a war from any century.... Cersei's walk of shame in Game of Thrones, the death of George Floyd or Giovanni Bruno." ( it Ain't Necessarily So)

So go ahead and finish your half baked critique by showing everyone how easy is to apply the 22 Psalm to any one of those situations you claimed you could ?
Or not ?

Here's nice a nice example from seven posts above this one on the same page that I presume you offer as an example of precisely fulfilled prophecy judging by your final sentence and the words following that which you offer as exact fulfillment. Sorry, but that's what I mean by nonspecific. It could be applied to a riot or a rodeo or a battle in a war from any century. It can be said to describe Cersei's walk of shame in Game of Thrones. It could describe somebody being in the middle East being stoned to death or the death of George Floyd or Giovanni Bruno.

 

[firedragon]

You showed nothing, just like the Quran.

Nice. Thanks.

 

[firedragon]

Your statements amount to opinions void of facts.

The facts were given to you. Deny them irresponsibly. Or as you did you could provide irrelevant facts to what was discussed. Cheers.

 

[Sargonski]

Muslims: Islam is the true faith, Quran is the word of God. Christianity is false. Bible is corrupted.

Christians: Christianity is the true faith, the Bible is the word of God, Islam is false, the Quran is not true.

Fact: Both the Bible and the Quran contradict on major points, therefore both cannot be true.
Question: Which one is the true word of God?

There was no selection for "Both" .. the assumption that the whole book has to be either true or false .. a false dichotomy.

God speaks through many venues ... teachings us God(s) law .. Rules .. and Covenant. The Golden Rule for example is taught in Hammurabi's Law code -- recieved from the most high God .. the Old Testament from the Most High .. Confucius .. Buddha .. the foundation on which Jesus bases his ministry .. and yes our friend Muhamoo also has this rule "No compulsion in Islam"

Now that one finds truth in the Bible .. does not mean the entire book is written by "God" .. and the big misconception is that the words come only from one God .. which would be to deny at minimum the author of confusion .. Chief God over the Earth and tester of souls "Gods Word" as opposed to the Word of the Chief God in the heavens .. the God of Jesus and Abraham .. The Father ..

Contradiction ? .. there is contradiction within the same book The Bible for example .. Do we A ) Kill the child for the sin of the Father or B) Do not kill the child for the sins of the Father ,, -- each is to be punished according to his own sin.

Which is from "The one True God" ?? Neither .. .. as there is no one true God ... Both Gods are True .. one as true as the other... I choose to follow the God giving us Rule B) .. others wish to follow Lord Jealous --- twin demiurge of YHWH .. the Convenant where Rule A comes from.

So there is actually no contradiction .. some made up monotheistic God that does not exist in the text contradicting himself .. what we have is two different Gods.