Which evolved first, consciousness or senses

[idav]

Matter is no cause for conciousness, Conciousness is cause for matter. Matter is like plastic and is moulded into shape by Mind or mind. There is no particle of matter in the universe that has the ability to think so it matters not how many particles of matter are grouped or in what configuration they cannot produce what they do not hold within themselves. Matter has no power to move itself, yet all matter moves and is moved into complex dances with other disparate particles in perfect number and measure. Decisions need be made to determine the number and measure. Since matter has no ability to think or even knows other particles exist it "cannot be" that matter randomly creates bodies with mind. Mind is other than matter, matter is a vehicle formed into shape by Mind such that thinking intelligence can experience existence in matter. The physical presence of matter is an illusion born out by frequencies of light and sound such that the pattern of the thing must exist before the quantum level of existence for it to be determined over and over again as the same thing when it passes through the quantum realm into physical illusion. Only Mind making a decision, setting a pattern in energy, can over rule the infinite potential of the quantum realm of particles. Senses are simply the realm of matter reacting, touching the mind in body that is experiencing this physical sensation.

I see this is your first post, welcome to RF. So you vote consciousness is fundamental, are you saying the particles already have this ability within?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Matter is no cause for conciousness, Conciousness is cause for matter. Matter is like plastic and is moulded into shape by Mind or mind. There is no particle of matter in the universe that has the ability to think so it matters not how many particles of matter are grouped or in what configuration they cannot produce what they do not hold within themselves.

That is like saying "matter doesn't have elbows, therefore matter cannot be formed to create elbows". This logic is clearly flawed. Do you have any solid evidence that consciousness is anything other than an arrangement or property of matter?

Matter has no power to move itself, yet all matter moves and is moved into complex dances with other disparate particles in perfect number and measure.

Matter acts in states determined by physical laws. Do you have any evidence to indicate that particle numbers or measure are "perfect"? What does that even mean.

Decisions need be made to determine the number and measure. Since matter has no ability to think or even knows other particles exist it "cannot be" that matter randomly creates bodies with mind.

Again, this is poor logic. Where is your evidence that consciousness is not simply a result, or property of, matter?

Mind is other than matter, matter is a vehicle formed into shape by Mind such that thinking intelligence can experience existence in matter.

If this is true, then please present a single example of a mind that is separate from physical matter.

The physical presence of matter is an illusion born out by frequencies of light and sound such that the pattern of the thing must exist before the quantum level of existence for it to be determined over and over again as the same thing when it passes through the quantum realm into physical illusion.

This just sounds like pseudo-philosophical quantum woo. Do you know what quantum mechanics actually states?

 

[Michael Thought]

That is like saying "matter doesn't have elbows, therefore matter cannot be formed to create elbows". This logic is clearly flawed. Do you have any solid evidence that consciousness is anything other than an arrangement or property of matter?


Matter acts in states determined by physical laws. Do you have any evidence to indicate that particle numbers or measure are "perfect"? What does that even mean.


Again, this is poor logic. Where is your evidence that consciousness is not simply a result, or property of, matter?


If this is true, then please present a single example of a mind that is separate from physical matter.


This just sounds like pseudo-philosophical quantum woo. Do you know what quantum mechanics actually states?

Can you name one particle of matter that has the ability to perform complex mathematical or chemical equations. Can you identify any particle of matter that can think and decide the right proportions for all the particles to form in a particular way. I don't think so. As far as the elbow comment, elbows are made of matter where I am discussing two different elements, matter and mind.

The perfection of the numbering of the universe can be seen in the latest research on dark matter and in all science relating to the make up of the universe. If anti matter and matter had been equal in the moments after the big bang there would be no universe. There was just 4% difference where matter was the majority and so the universe took hold. Thus a perfect composition occurred to allow this universe existence. Now we know that matter makes up only 4% of the universe and such we see another perfection related to the beginning.

Matter is an illusion, don't take my word for it Science realises this to the point where it has been submitted on many occasions the universe is holographic in nature. The quantum realm reveals our laws of physics break down when viewing this reality, yet an orange in our viewing of reality is always an orange with the same attributes. For an orange to always be an orange in our view its pattern for existence must be set before the quantum realm otherwise the quantum realm would have infinite potential to change the pattern to something else.

The most basic law of physics is that a thing can only release the potential energy already held within a thing. The seed of an apple tree cannot produce an orange tree etc. No particle of matter holds intelligence so how could it produce intelligence.

You ask me to show you mind separate from matter, how about you show me a particle of matter that has intelligence as your basis for your belief is born out of Newtonian science. Show me a particle that can come up with the pattern of the human body, call all the other particles to become part of the show and I will change my view. Mind moves matter not the other way around.

Einstein revealed time travel as a concept, the ramifications of this are the mind in a baby born also exits as the mind of the baby as an adult and at death, as existing together just in separate viewing time frames. One mind in different forms of matter. if matter was the cause of this mind then it could only exist in the time of the baby and Einstein was wrong.

 

[Michael Thought]

I see this is your first post, welcome to RF. So you vote consciousness is fundamental, are you saying the particles already have this ability within?

Thank you
Yes, but not in the way I think you perceive. The particles floating exist because they were conceived and held in the seed of the creation moment as was all minds to be born. Bodies are reflections of the spirit which is a reflection of the soul which is a reflection of the mind being born. An electron holds the form electron because it was conceived and dispersed by Mind. It does not hold the mind of a human and never does think. The grouping of particles of matter is aside from the mind that inhabits the body, until they merge. Since matter is merely viewing something at a particular frequency matter can seen to be an illusion of light and sound. Particles are energy first and matter as energy formed into pattern.

 

[FearGod]

The brain, and it has something to do with simultaneous processing. We would need a trillion core computer, Intel just came out with a ten core.

Once I figure out how it works I probably am not going to broadcast it but get rich by creating the first AI, I work a lot with that stuff.

The brain is a matter, how a matter can be conscious, we can never produce a conscious computer regardless of the numbers of cores.

 

[idav]

The brain is a matter, how a matter can be conscious, we can never produce a conscious computer regardless of the numbers of cores.

Of course not because humans are some how magical compared to the rest of the earth.

We can certainly produce what would just as easily happen by accident?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Can you name one particle of matter that has the ability to perform complex mathematical or chemical equations. Can you identify any particle of matter that can think and decide the right proportions for all the particles to form in a particular way. I don't think so. As far as the elbow comment, elbows are made of matter where I am discussing two different elements, matter and mind.

I've already explained why this logic is flawed. There are no particles of matter that have hinges, and yet I doubt you would question the possibility of matter coming together to be able to form hinges. There is nothing intrinsic to consciousness or mental ability that make them incapable of occurring as a result of physical processes. Do you have any evidence to that effect? Can you demonstrate that "mind" is not a product of matter?

The perfection of the numbering of the universe can be seen in the latest research on dark matter and in all science relating to the make up of the universe. If anti matter and matter had been equal in the moments after the big bang there would be no universe. There was just 4% difference where matter was the majority and so the universe took hold. Thus a perfect composition occurred to allow this universe existence. Now we know that matter makes up only 4% of the universe and such we see another perfection related to the beginning.

Again, this is flawed logic. "If things were different, they wouldn't be the same" is the exact same logic you are using here. If you understand statistical mechanics, you would understand why such statements are meaningless.

Matter is an illusion, don't take my word for it Science realises this to the point where it has been submitted on many occasions the universe is holographic in nature. The quantum realm reveals our laws of physics break down when viewing this reality, yet an orange in our viewing of reality is always an orange with the same attributes. For an orange to always be an orange in our view its pattern for existence must be set before the quantum realm otherwise the quantum realm would have infinite potential to change the pattern to something else.

Clearly, you know very little about actual quantum mechanics. Quantum physics says nothing like what you are claiming - it merely states that when an outside forces measures or perceives of something that exists in a quantum state its quantum waveform collapses into one of a large number of finite probabilities (at least, that's the Copenhagen interpretation). Quantum physics does not (and cannot) apply at the macro scale. I strongly suggest you read some actual science on the subject, and not the apparent quantum woo you have been reading thus far. I suggest In Search of Schrodinger's Cat by John Gribbin as an excellent starting point.

The most basic law of physics is that a thing can only release the potential energy already held within a thing. The seed of an apple tree cannot produce an orange tree etc. No particle of matter holds intelligence so how could it produce intelligence.

Again, this logic is fundamentally flawed and you should now understand why. This logic wouldn't allow for literally anything other than individual particles to exist. Apparently, particles couldn't form rocks, oxygen, dirt, trees or elbows, by this logic. You have yet to provide any good reason to conclude that consciousness is anything other than a product of physical matter.

You ask me to show you mind separate from matter, how about you show me a particle of matter that has intelligence as your basis for your belief is born out of Newtonian science.

I don't have to provide you with anything, because I haven't made any such claim (nor have I stated anything about Newtonian science). You have claimed that the mind is something distinct from the physical, and therefore cannot be the result of a physical process or composition. If this is true, then please give an example of a mind that is separate from matter.

Show me a particle that can come up with the pattern of the human body, call all the other particles to become part of the show and I will change my view. Mind moves matter not the other way around.

This red herring does nothing but show that you are wholly illogical on this subject. Show me a single atom that contains a hinge, otherwise your entire argument must also negate the existence of all physical hinges.

Einstein revealed time travel as a concept, the ramifications of this are the mind in a baby born also exits as the mind of the baby as an adult and at death, as existing together just in separate viewing time frames. One mind in different forms of matter. if matter was the cause of this mind then it could only exist in the time of the baby and Einstein was wrong.

Let me know when you stop spewing garbage and start talking facts.

 

[Michael Thought]

I've already explained why this logic is flawed. There are no particles of matter that have hinges, and yet I doubt you would question the possibility of matter coming together to be able to form hinges. There is nothing intrinsic to consciousness or mental ability that make them incapable of occurring as a result of physical processes. Do you have any evidence to that effect? Can you demonstrate that "mind" is not a product of matter?


Again, this is flawed logic. "If things were different, they wouldn't be the same" is the exact same logic you are using here. If you understand statistical mechanics, you would understand why such statements are meaningless.


Clearly, you know very little about actual quantum mechanics. Quantum physics says nothing like what you are claiming - it merely states that when an outside forces measures or perceives of something that exists in a quantum state its quantum waveform collapses into one of a large number of finite probabilities (at least, that's the Copenhagen interpretation). Quantum physics does not (and cannot) apply at the macro scale. I strongly suggest you read some actual science on the subject, and not the apparent quantum woo you have been reading thus far. I suggest In Search of Schrodinger's Cat by John Gribbin as an excellent starting point.


Again, this logic is fundamentally flawed and you should now understand why. This logic wouldn't allow for literally anything other than individual particles to exist. Apparently, particles couldn't form rocks, oxygen, dirt, trees or elbows, by this logic. You have yet to provide any good reason to conclude that consciousness is anything other than a product of physical matter.


I don't have to provide you with anything, because I haven't made any such claim (nor have I stated anything about Newtonian science). You have claimed that the mind is something distinct from the physical, and therefore cannot be the result of a physical process or composition. If this is true, then please give an example of a mind that is separate from matter.


This red herring does nothing but show that you are wholly illogical on this subject. Show me a single atom that contains a hinge, otherwise your entire argument must also negate the existence of all physical hinges.


Let me know when you stop spewing garbage and start talking facts.

Why is your tone so aggressive?. If matter creates conciousness then explain to me how it is the brain, a super computer, only uses 10% of its ability in our life experience, or as most people put it we use 10% of our brain power. How is it that the brain knowing all things about the body cannot understand how to heal all afflictions. Or is it the brain doesn't know all about the body and is learning it itself though it was part of the growing process. As for your assumptions that my statements mean nothing could form I will correct you. My assumption is based on the concept that Mind intelligent moves all particles so being able to form whatever is conceived. Whether you want hinges or any other such thing to move particles into position and bond, it is a force with intelligence that makes them move.

Particles have no internal power source to move. Just look at the splitting of a single cell into two then more. There is no power source for it to do this yet it does and Geneticists cannot explain why. Your assumption is that randomly moving particles form complex states of being and then miraculously create mind. You have said absolutely nothing about how this is possible or what particles are responsible for generating mind. The chemicals in our body are found across the universe and on earth in many things and yet they perceive to have no mind attached as in rocks. So even tho these same chemicals exist everywhere without producing mind you insist that in a certain configuration they perform a miracle and create a mind. This is so ridiculous. Chemicals do not have mind so they cannot produce mind. I know you don't like this statement and try to disprove it by using elbows and hinges and any other change in the state of a particle but always leave out the concept that mind moves things and makes things, whatever you mention mind brings together what is required. Your insistence that matter, which matter, which particle which chemical composition, all of which are made up of other things, so which part of those other things. Or is your view all matter creates mind. If not for the love of GOD tell me which particles have mind with which to share with other particles.

 

[Michael Thought]

I've already explained why this logic is flawed. There are no particles of matter that have hinges, and yet I doubt you would question the possibility of matter coming together to be able to form hinges. There is nothing intrinsic to consciousness or mental ability that make them incapable of occurring as a result of physical processes. Do you have any evidence to that effect? Can you demonstrate that "mind" is not a product of matter?


Again, this is flawed logic. "If things were different, they wouldn't be the same" is the exact same logic you are using here. If you understand statistical mechanics, you would understand why such statements are meaningless.


Clearly, you know very little about actual quantum mechanics. Quantum physics says nothing like what you are claiming - it merely states that when an outside forces measures or perceives of something that exists in a quantum state its quantum waveform collapses into one of a large number of finite probabilities (at least, that's the Copenhagen interpretation). Quantum physics does not (and cannot) apply at the macro scale. I strongly suggest you read some actual science on the subject, and not the apparent quantum woo you have been reading thus far. I suggest In Search of Schrodinger's Cat by John Gribbin as an excellent starting point.


Again, this logic is fundamentally flawed and you should now understand why. This logic wouldn't allow for literally anything other than individual particles to exist. Apparently, particles couldn't form rocks, oxygen, dirt, trees or elbows, by this logic. You have yet to provide any good reason to conclude that consciousness is anything other than a product of physical matter.


I don't have to provide you with anything, because I haven't made any such claim (nor have I stated anything about Newtonian science). You have claimed that the mind is something distinct from the physical, and therefore cannot be the result of a physical process or composition. If this is true, then please give an example of a mind that is separate from matter.


This red herring does nothing but show that you are wholly illogical on this subject. Show me a single atom that contains a hinge, otherwise your entire argument must also negate the existence of all physical hinges.


Let me know when you stop spewing garbage and start talking facts.

So it seems you have no interest in exploring outside your base of knowing. Time travel is a red herring is it. I am sure today's physicists and Einstein would thank you for your contribution. Explain how conciousness works in time travel, explain how matter creates conciousness across waves of time. You simply have no mind for exploration. You are, matter creates intelligence, forget about the anomalies this throws up, matter creates intelligence, forget that no matter is intelligent in itself. Ahh dogma with thought continuously spewed by matter.

 

[Michael Thought]

Why is your tone so aggressive?. If matter creates conciousness then explain to me how it is the brain, a super computer, only uses 10% of its ability in our life experience, or as most people put it we use 10% of our brain power. How is it that the brain knowing all things about the body cannot understand how to heal all afflictions. Or is it the brain doesn't know all about the body and is learning it itself though it was part of the growing process. As for your assumptions that my statements mean nothing could form I will correct you. My assumption is based on the concept that Mind intelligent moves all particles so being able to form whatever is conceived. Whether you want hinges or any other such thing to move particles into position and bond, it is a force with intelligence that makes them move.

Particles have no internal power source to move. Just look at the splitting of a single cell into two then more. There is no power source for it to do this yet it does and Geneticists cannot explain why. Your assumption is that randomly moving particles form complex states of being and then miraculously create mind. You have said absolutely nothing about how this is possible or what particles are responsible for generating mind. The chemicals in our body are found across the universe and on earth in many things and yet they perceive to have no mind attached as in rocks. So even tho these same chemicals exist everywhere without producing mind you insist that in a certain configuration they perform a miracle and create a mind. This is so ridiculous. Chemicals do not have mind so they cannot produce mind. I know you don't like this statement and try to disprove it by using elbows and hinges and any other change in the state of a particle but always leave out the concept that mind moves things and makes things, whatever you mention mind brings together what is required. Your insistence that matter, which matter, which particle which chemical composition, all of which are made up of other things, so which part of those other things. Or is your view all matter creates mind. If not for the love of GOD tell me which particles have mind with which to share with other particles.

So it seems you have no interest in exploring outside your base of knowing. Time travel is a red herring is it. I am sure today's physicists and Einstein would thank you for your contribution. Explain how conciousness works in time travel, explain how matter creates conciousness across waves of time. You simply have no mind for exploration. You are, matter creates intelligence, forget about the anomalies this throws up, matter creates intelligence, forget that no matter is intelligent in itself. Ahh dogma with thought continuously spewed by matter.

I've already explained why this logic is flawed. There are no particles of matter that have hinges, and yet I doubt you would question the possibility of matter coming together to be able to form hinges. There is nothing intrinsic to consciousness or mental ability that make them incapable of occurring as a result of physical processes. Do you have any evidence to that effect? Can you demonstrate that "mind" is not a product of matter?


Again, this is flawed logic. "If things were different, they wouldn't be the same" is the exact same logic you are using here. If you understand statistical mechanics, you would understand why such statements are meaningless.


Clearly, you know very little about actual quantum mechanics. Quantum physics says nothing like what you are claiming - it merely states that when an outside forces measures or perceives of something that exists in a quantum state its quantum waveform collapses into one of a large number of finite probabilities (at least, that's the Copenhagen interpretation). Quantum physics does not (and cannot) apply at the macro scale. I strongly suggest you read some actual science on the subject, and not the apparent quantum woo you have been reading thus far. I suggest In Search of Schrodinger's Cat by John Gribbin as an excellent starting point.


Again, this logic is fundamentally flawed and you should now understand why. This logic wouldn't allow for literally anything other than individual particles to exist. Apparently, particles couldn't form rocks, oxygen, dirt, trees or elbows, by this logic. You have yet to provide any good reason to conclude that consciousness is anything other than a product of physical matter.


I don't have to provide you with anything, because I haven't made any such claim (nor have I stated anything about Newtonian science). You have claimed that the mind is something distinct from the physical, and therefore cannot be the result of a physical process or composition. If this is true, then please give an example of a mind that is separate from matter.


This red herring does nothing but show that you are wholly illogical on this subject. Show me a single atom that contains a hinge, otherwise your entire argument must also negate the existence of all physical hinges.


Let me know when you stop spewing garbage and start talking facts.

The oldest question in science is "What makes things move" the answer reveals matter does not move itself so some other force outside matter makes matter move into complex arrangements. Your answer is matter moves itself into complex arrangements through random movement but you cannot reveal how matter moves itself. see my problem. Constantly repeating matter creates intelligence without explaining how is rather pointless. Educate me don't berate me.

 

[Michael Thought]

I've already explained why this logic is flawed. There are no particles of matter that have hinges, and yet I doubt you would question the possibility of matter coming together to be able to form hinges. There is nothing intrinsic to consciousness or mental ability that make them incapable of occurring as a result of physical processes. Do you have any evidence to that effect? Can you demonstrate that "mind" is not a product of matter?


Again, this is flawed logic. "If things were different, they wouldn't be the same" is the exact same logic you are using here. If you understand statistical mechanics, you would understand why such statements are meaningless.


Clearly, you know very little about actual quantum mechanics. Quantum physics says nothing like what you are claiming - it merely states that when an outside forces measures or perceives of something that exists in a quantum state its quantum waveform collapses into one of a large number of finite probabilities (at least, that's the Copenhagen interpretation). Quantum physics does not (and cannot) apply at the macro scale. I strongly suggest you read some actual science on the subject, and not the apparent quantum woo you have been reading thus far. I suggest In Search of Schrodinger's Cat by John Gribbin as an excellent starting point.


Again, this logic is fundamentally flawed and you should now understand why. This logic wouldn't allow for literally anything other than individual particles to exist. Apparently, particles couldn't form rocks, oxygen, dirt, trees or elbows, by this logic. You have yet to provide any good reason to conclude that consciousness is anything other than a product of physical matter.


I don't have to provide you with anything, because I haven't made any such claim (nor have I stated anything about Newtonian science). You have claimed that the mind is something distinct from the physical, and therefore cannot be the result of a physical process or composition. If this is true, then please give an example of a mind that is separate from matter.


This red herring does nothing but show that you are wholly illogical on this subject. Show me a single atom that contains a hinge, otherwise your entire argument must also negate the existence of all physical hinges.


Let me know when you stop spewing garbage and start talking facts.

If matter creates intelligence and the same particles exist across the universe how is it matter does not know all the things regarding itself here and across the universe. Why does it create a mind that has to discover the nature of matter. This does not make sense. So matter creates intelligence but somehow knows nothing and needs to learn about itself, needs to learn it is an electron, an atom, a photon and that it clumps together to form bodies. Something creates something but knows nothing about itself. You want it both ways, matter creates intelligence but knows nothing until it as a group learns about itself. How does this work, can you explain it for this simple mind?

 

[idav]

If matter creates intelligence and the same particles exist across the universe how is it matter does not know all the things regarding itself here and across the universe.

Same reason a single cell in our body is probably totally oblivious to the fact that they live and are a part of a conscious being. Its all still networked.

 

[Michael Thought]

Same reason a single cell in our body is probably totally oblivious to the fact that they live and are a part of a conscious being. Its all still networked.

Yes networked and yes single cells or the particles that make up single cells are totally oblivious to the fact they live, as they have no mind to do so. The network is very much like software and hardware. A brain is hardware, thoughts are the software programs uploaded. A baby learns by uploading information and discovering the user interface to the body, a child up loads software in its education and life experience, an adult uploads software until death. Images and sensations are the ones and zeros delivered to a brain that is programmed by the mind to define the images and sensations. The brain learns this.

the particles are coded, by whom or what are they coded to do their thing in the network. They cannot decide yet there is no doubt decisions are made as these cells will only do this and those cells will only do that yet they hold the same particles.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Why is your tone so aggressive?

I am easily aggravated by people spreading misinformation in order to prop up their views.

If matter creates conciousness then explain to me how it is the brain, a super computer, only uses 10% of its ability in our life experience, or as most people put it we use 10% of our brain power.

You've just proven your scientific illiteracy. The whole "we use 10% of our brain power claim" is nothing but a myth. It is so widely refuted that even scientific education websites for children explain that it is wrong:
https://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/tenper.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_percent_of_the_brain_myth

How is it that the brain knowing all things about the body cannot understand how to heal all afflictions. Or is it the brain doesn't know all about the body and is learning it itself though it was part of the growing process.

What does any of that have to do with the brain being entirely physical?

As for your assumptions that my statements mean nothing could form I will correct you. My assumption is based on the concept that Mind intelligent moves all particles so being able to form whatever is conceived. Whether you want hinges or any other such thing to move particles into position and bond, it is a force with intelligence that makes them move.

Do you have any evidence for this?

Particles have no internal power source to move. Just look at the splitting of a single cell into two then more. There is no power source for it to do this yet it does and Geneticists cannot explain why. Your assumption is that randomly moving particles form complex states of being and then miraculously create mind.

I already explained this! I have stated particles interact in states influenced by physical forces. It's not "random".

You have said absolutely nothing about how this is possible or what particles are responsible for generating mind. The chemicals in our body are found across the universe and on earth in many things and yet they perceive to have no mind attached as in rocks.

Because rocks don't have brains. Are you under the impression that minds can exist without brains? Can you present a single example of a brainless mind?

So even tho these same chemicals exist everywhere without producing mind you insist that in a certain configuration they perform a miracle and create a mind.

Yep. Except it's not a miracles. A mind is natural byproduct of a brain, just as a hinge is a natural product of an elbow.

This is so ridiculous. Chemicals do not have mind so they cannot produce mind.

Again, this logic is no different to saying "particles don't have hinges, therefore particles cannot form hinges". It's asinine. The mind is a product of a physical brain, which is a collection of muscles and neurons made of physical particles. The sum total of all these particles in this specific formation is what results in the thing we call a "mind", just as the sum total of particles which forms an elbow results in the thing we call a "hinge". Your logic is ridiculous. It's like saying "A single human isn't a family, therefore humans can't form a family". How do you not understand how poor this logic is?

I know you don't like this statement and try to disprove it by using elbows and hinges and any other change in the state of a particle but always leave out the concept that mind moves things and makes things, whatever you mention mind brings together what is required.

What does a mind's ability to make or move things have to do with whether or not it is a result of physical processes?

Your insistence that matter, which matter, which particle which chemical composition, all of which are made up of other things, so which part of those other things. Or is your view all matter creates mind. If not for the love of GOD tell me which particles have mind with which to share with other particles.

This is just incomprehensible word salad.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

So it seems you have no interest in exploring outside your base of knowing.

That's a baseless personal remark that you have no good reason to make.

Time travel is a red herring is it.

No, your argument is.

I am sure today's physicists and Einstein would thank you for your contribution. Explain how conciousness works in time travel, explain how matter creates conciousness across waves of time.

Since these requests make no sense, I can feely ignore them.

You simply have no mind for exploration.

Translation: "You don't agree with me, so therefore you are close-minded". I am open minded to the possibility of anything being true, provided you can actually demonstrate it to be so So far, you have done nothing but make a series of empty claims and supported those claims with demonstrably bogus science. It's not me being "close-minded". It's you showing little to no understanding of the scientific concepts you are using, and in many places outright fabricating what science actually says to support your position. If you have to prop your position up on falsehoods, your position is obviously not a strong one.

You are, matter creates intelligence, forget about the anomalies this throws up, matter creates intelligence, forget that no matter is intelligent in itself. Ahh dogma with thought continuously spewed by matter.

My position is "We have no reason to assume that conciousness is anything other than the result of matter". But, apparently, you're not interested in actually understanding my position, because you have thus far failed to ask me anything about it. So I have no idea where you're getting your assumptions about me from.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

The oldest question in science is "What makes things move" the answer reveals matter does not move itself so some other force outside matter makes matter move into complex arrangements.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_law

Your answer is matter moves itself into complex arrangements through random movement

Since I have never said that then you now are resulting to outright fabrications of my position. I demand you apologize and retract this fallacious statement.

but you cannot reveal how matter moves itself. see my problem. Constantly repeating matter creates intelligence without explaining how is rather pointless. Educate me don't berate me.

I have explained my position. You are the one making claims and then not supporting them. I have asked three times already for you to support your assertion that the mind is non-physical by providing a single example of a mind that is separate from a brain. Instead of rising to that challenge, you have repeatedly made (false) accusations about my position and demanded I provide evidence of said (imaginary) positions. This is called shifting the burden of proof. Either support your arguments, or don't both making them.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

If matter creates intelligence and the same particles exist across the universe how is it matter does not know all the things regarding itself here and across the universe.

Because all matter isn't "a brain". Once again:

"If matter can form hinges, how come the entire Universe doesn't swivel?"

Why does it create a mind that has to discover the nature of matter. This does not make sense.

What about it doesn't make sense? Matter forms organs and neurons that form a brain, and a brain is capable of perception and introspection. I doubt you would question that a computer is a purely physical thing, yet I doubt you would ever ask why you can't run Windows '98 on the Universe. What you're saying makes no snese.

So matter creates intelligence but somehow knows nothing and needs to learn about itself, needs to learn it is an electron, an atom, a photon and that it clumps together to form bodies. Something creates something but knows nothing about itself. You want it both ways, matter creates intelligence but knows nothing until it as a group learns about itself. How does this work, can you explain it for this simple mind?

Because matter isn't intelligent. Brains are, because brains are organs (made of matter) that can absorb and process information. How do you not understand this?

 

[FearGod]

Of course not because humans are some how magical compared to the rest of the earth.

We can certainly produce what would just as easily happen by accident?

What your brain thinks about it? give your brain enough time to process the data available in its memory and then to see what it thinks about consciousness.

 

[idav]

What your brain thinks about it? give your brain enough time to process the data available in its memory and then to see what it thinks about consciousness.

I do believe meditation does wonders, no matter which religion is practicing it, because there is nothing special about the spirituality itself. It is the way the brain functions, but if it works then do it.

 

[Michael Thought]

Because all matter isn't "a brain". Once again:

"If matter can form hinges, how come the entire Universe doesn't swivel?"


What about it doesn't make sense? Matter forms organs and neurons that form a brain, and a brain is capable of perception and introspection. I doubt you would question that a computer is a purely physical thing, yet I doubt you would ever ask why you can't run Windows '98 on the Universe. What you're saying makes no snese.


Because matter isn't intelligent. Brains are, because brains are organs (made of matter) that can absorb and process information. How do you not understand this?

I apologise for any perceived insult. I have asked you many times to show me how matter creates intelligence. Your only answers are "It does" and now more specifically matter creates brains and presto intelligence from particles of matter that have no intelligence. I have asked you to educate me on what makes matter of all different types suddenly in a particular combination create intelligence and all you answer is it does. So far your only knowledge seems to be matter creates intelligence because it creates a network that can pass signals and suddenly becomes intelligent. Once again I ask you to show me how things without intelligence create intelligence. Where is the decision made and by what particles does intelligence manifest. Please don't just answer that matter forms brains and presto matter is intelligent.

When I say what makes things move you ignore this as if it is meaningless, yet it is the most fundamental question about the universe. You haven't attacked the statement matter has no power to move itself as yet and I ask again what moves matter and how does something that cannot think organise into such perfect combinations. You have asked me to give you an example of mind without matter and this is difficult as we move into the realm of unseen intelligence or an understanding of what moves matter.

As your only concept is matter creates mind then there is no hope of discussing something unseen. Unless you answer me what makes matter move. Physical forces was your answer and yet you dispute that I understand this as saying the movement then is random. Either it is random by physical forces or not random. Which is it. If not random are you suggesting that some other force besides random interactions creates the complex groupings of matter. I am confused. If not random then what is the force other than physical interactions?

Though string theory can never be proved the on going papers that suggest the universe is a hologram. It seems to me to suggest matter is an image on a screen and a final construct not the original idea. Would this suggest such that the pattern of thing must exist before the thing itself can exist as matter. What changes the energy into matter that is viewed here? Is your perspective the universe is a material one with 4% matter or does matter breakdown into many many different bits until energy is perceived though not viewed. as I said string theory cannot be proved only perceived.

I perfectly understand brains are capable of receiving thought. Our difference is I see the brain as a computer being fed information on behalf of the mind in body not an organ of matter that suddenly evolves matter to have feelings and emotions.