Which Jesus is the right one?

[oldbadger]

Nazareth was a center of Jewish nationalism, so you would expect that there would be people there who would follow the tradition of the Maccabees. The political issues between the Nazarenes and the Herodians were the part of the false accusations that were used by those who conspired to have Yeshua killed.

Do you think that a Nazarene was a person from Nazareth?
I don't.

 

[oldbadger]

Interpretations that are inconsistent, absurd, or repugnant are not the preferred interpretation.

The point is that Jesus ensorsed the will of his Father, so the original theological problem of a just and compassionate deity intending that his so be tortured to death is still pertinent.


If that were true then why would he refer to a prophetic text which repudiated blood sacrifice?

But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Matthew 9:13

For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of Elohim more than burnt offerings.
Hosea 6:6

The rake-offs from Temple sacrifice were huge, and Jesus was against the ceremonies for that reason.

And the money exchange rip offs.

The people (mostly poor) ere being ripped off.

 

[Landon1330]

If we begin with Exodus 34:5-7 we can gain some insight. It reads, "The LORD descended in the cloud and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD. The LORD passed before him and proclaimed, 'The LORD, the LORD, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgressions and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, to the third and the fourth generation."

God graciously reveals Himself and descends to His creation. He is merciful and gracious, and holy, righteous, and just. His character is such that He cannot overlook sin (He will by no means clear the guilty) and loves righteousness, yet in His love for His creation He is also merciful and gracious. His actions in redemption show this, first with redeeming Israel and the ultimate fulfillment in sending His Son, Jesus the Christ, to save His people from their sins. Paul writes Christ's sacrifice was to show God's justice in punishing sin while also being able to justify sinners (Rom 3:25-26), yet in His love He sent His Son (Rom 5:8, 1 John 4:10), and Christ willingly came (Phil 2), to reconcile us back to Himself through Christ (2 Cor 5).

Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, and the Lion of Judah who will return with a sword of judgment for all who reject the one true living God. Understanding God and His character as revealed in Scripture is key to understanding Jesus, for He is the God-man.

 

[Ebionite]

The rake-offs from Temple sacrifice were huge, and Jesus was against the ceremonies for that reason.

No, that's the Pharisees' version of the story.

And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves [leston].
Matthew 21:12-13

leston = robbers.

Is this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers[פרצים] in your eyes? Behold, even I have seen [it], saith YHWH.
Jeremiah 7:11

פרצים : violent ones

Strong's Hebrew: 6530. פָּרִיץ (parits) -- Violent, ruthless, robber, tyrant

The underlying issue was the violence of sacrifice.

But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Matthew 9:13

The voice of joy, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the voice of them that shall say, Praise YHWH of armies: for YHWH [is] good; for his mercy [endureth] for ever: [and] of them that shall bring the sacrifice of praise into the house of YHWH. For I will cause to return the captivity of the land, as at the first, saith YHWH.
Jeremiah 33:11

For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of Elohim more than burnt offerings.
Hosea 6:6

 

[Betho_br]

That would be the jesus i consider more likely given the history of roman occupation

Your argument cannot be ignored. I will think before answering you.

 

[Betho_br]

Hello.
Now which Jesus is the real one!

There's one that tells that gathering riches and loving mammon are both very wrong, but some Christians reply by telling me that Jesus believes in profits and rewards for profitable servants. Which one is the right one?

There's the Jesus that orders people never to call others 'fool' but Christians sometimes accuse others of being 'brick-thick'. Which Jesus is the right one?

There's the Jesus that insists on peaceful behaviour and turning the other cheek when slapped. But some Christians insist that Jesus wanted his followers to sell their possessions and buy swords.

And......there are more examples, but you get it.
So which Jesus is the real one?

Does the Jesus described in Matthew 10:34–39, Luke 12:49–53 answer your question?

 

[oldbadger]

Does the Jesus described in Matthew 10:34–39, Luke 12:49–53 answer your question?

Absolutely! Thank you for those verses.
An aggressive and violent Jesus in the first, and a rather unjust and vicious punisher in the last.
But if some Christians want to be violent or brutal then thode verses could defend such actions.

Next week they might require a more peaceful and lenient Jesus?
Those verses are there as well.

 

[oldbadger]

No, that's the Pharisees' version of the story.

And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves [leston].
Matthew 21:12-13

leston = robbers.

The Pharisees didn't write any version!

Pharisees did not run the Great Temple.

 

[1213]

Spoken like a true follower of finance!

Welcome to mammon!
So you like the ruthless Jesus? OK.

I don't think Jesus is ruthless. The story he told tells that there's two kind of people, those who serve well, as they are paid to, and those who don't. That one does not serve as he is paid to, are not good servants. Do you think that is not correct? If you would hire a person to do something, would it be ok to you to pay for him, for not doing the thing you asked?

 

[oldbadger]

I don't think Jesus is ruthless. The story he told tells that there's two kind of people, those who serve well, as they are paid to, and those who don't. That one does not serve as he is paid to, are not good servants. Do you think that is not correct? If you would hire a person to do something, would it be ok to you to pay for him, for not doing the thing you asked?

Did you read about what the master did to the servant?
Ruthless.

Some Christians are certainly ruthless and probably do quote from the gospels in order to justify their actions.

 

[Betho_br]

oldbadger said:
So the question begs, who was the threatening, grasping, sword wielding and violent man of the same name?

That would be the jesus i consider more likely given the history of roman occupation

If the facts truly align with the writings, Jesus was born under suspicions of being the product of fornication, and worse, according to Jewish sources, the son of a Roman soldier. With the arrival of the Magi from the East, Jesus’s life was threatened, and his family embarked on an intercontinental journey to Egypt. After all this, Jesus jeopardized everything when, at twelve years old, he began preaching in the temple of Jerusalem—a direct affront to the very system that had pursued him. Subsequently, Jesus chose disciples who, grammatically speaking, were young men, and he began his ministry using phrases like "brood of vipers," among other provocations. He performed healings or therapies, according to religious leaders, on the Sabbath, and Jesus often hid in deserts, in his home far from Jerusalem, or in the mountains. His own relatives (brothers) plotted against him, sending him to Jerusalem at a time when people there sought to kill him. Then there was the violence during the cleansing of the temple in Jerusalem, where the sacrificial system was being harshly exploited. It is also known that at least one of Jesus’s disciples carried a sword and wounded an authority. In the end, Jesus hid in Ephraim—a move that, in modern terms, would be like hiding in the area bounded by S. Los Angeles St., Boyd St., S. San Pedro, and E. 5th Street in Los Angeles. Among many other events, it fell to Paul, formerly the violent Saul, to pacify this Jesus. In broad terms, the Pauline school pacified two at once—both Jesus and Saul—in favor of the Romans, who would later destroy Jerusalem. It wasn't the first time they had done this; they had also done it with Flavius Josephus.

 

[ChristineM]

oldbadger said:
So the question begs, who was the threatening, grasping, sword wielding and violent man of the same name?



If the facts truly align with the writings, Jesus was born under suspicions of being the product of fornication, and worse, according to Jewish sources, the son of a Roman soldier. With the arrival of the Magi from the East, Jesus’s life was threatened, and his family embarked on an intercontinental journey to Egypt. After all this, Jesus jeopardized everything when, at twelve years old, he began preaching in the temple of Jerusalem—a direct affront to the very system that had pursued him. Subsequently, Jesus chose disciples who, grammatically speaking, were young men, and he began his ministry using phrases like "brood of vipers," among other provocations. He performed healings or therapies, according to religious leaders, on the Sabbath, and Jesus often hid in deserts, in his home far from Jerusalem, or in the mountains. His own relatives (brothers) plotted against him, sending him to Jerusalem at a time when people there sought to kill him. Then there was the violence during the cleansing of the temple in Jerusalem, where the sacrificial system was being harshly exploited. It is also known that at least one of Jesus’s disciples carried a sword and wounded an authority. In the end, Jesus hid in Ephraim—a move that, in modern terms, would be like hiding in the area bounded by S. Los Angeles St., Boyd St., S. San Pedro, and E. 5th Street in Los Angeles. Among many other events, it fell to Paul, formerly the violent Saul, to pacify this Jesus. In broad terms, the Pauline school pacified two at once—both Jesus and Saul—in favor of the Romans, who would later destroy Jerusalem. It wasn't the first time they had done this; they had also done it with Flavius Josephus.

Some of this i omitted and some is included , what do you think?

My view on Jesus.

 

[Betho_br]

Some of this i omitted and some is included , what do you think?

My view on Jesus.

Any dedicated student who sets out to study the historical Jesus, examining the sources within the framework of secular literature, will inevitably arrive at similar conclusions. You have demonstrated impartiality and diligent care in this endeavor, reflecting the same spirit I sought in my own research.

 

[1213]

Did you read about what the master did to the servant?
Ruthless.

Why do you think it was Jesus?

 

[oldbadger]

Why do you think it was Jesus?

Jesus told that story, and told of the consequences of succeeding and failing in usury. Many Christians quote this to support their lifestyles.
Very sad.

 

[oldbadger]

Some of this i omitted and some is included , what do you think?

My view on Jesus.

I think that could be one of the Jesus characters....certainly.

The disciples were very hard men for sure.
Simon the rock
James son of violence (another word for thunder)
John son of violence
Simon the Zealot
Judas the dagger (sicarii)
Matthew the Levite (hard taxman)
The other six would have been equally tough, I reckon.

 

[1213]

Jesus told that story, and told of the consequences of succeeding and failing in usury. Many Christians quote this to support their lifestyles.
Very sad.

Interesting, I don't think it is about failing in usury. And I don't think Jesus is ruthless. However, it is true that evil people are not allowed to continue forever. If that is ruthless, then it is so. But, the judgment goes like this:

This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn’t come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God.”
John 3:16-21

I don't think that is bad, if evil people don't get to live forever.

 

[oldbadger]

Interesting, I don't think it is about failing in usury. And I don't think Jesus is ruthless. However, it is true that evil people are not allowed to continue forever. If that is ruthless, then it is so. But, the judgment goes like this:

This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn’t come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God.”
John 3:16-21

I don't think that is bad, if evil people don't get to live forever.

Judgement. Whose judgement was that? Some imagining of the author of G-John?

He did write some things!

 

[Muffled]

Hello.
Now which Jesus is the real one!

There's one that tells that gathering riches and loving mammon are both very wrong, but some Christians reply by telling me that Jesus believes in profits and rewards for profitable servants. Which one is the right one?

There's the Jesus that orders people never to call others 'fool' but Christians sometimes accuse others of being 'brick-thick'. Which Jesus is the right one?

There's the Jesus that insists on peaceful behaviour and turning the other cheek when slapped. But some Christians insist that Jesus wanted his followers to sell their possessions and buy swords.

And......there are more examples, but you get it.
So which Jesus is the real one?

I believe He is the one mentioned throughout the NT.

 

[Muffled]

I think that I would like Jesus very much but some Christians I do have a problem with. They are not the same thing.

I believe not everyone calling themselves a Christian is a born again believer. I called myself a Christian long before I received Jesus as Lord and Savior.