Which prophecies did Jesus fulfill as to be the Messiah?

[Me Myself]

The point is, if one is at peace with the world, isn't that world peace?

Then again the prophecy is worthless because a lot of people have been at peace with the world since before Jesus.

 

[roger1440]

Then again the prophecy is worthless because a lot of people have been at peace with the world since before Jesus.

We can only answer for ourselves, not other people. Peace isn’t about others, it’s about us. The time for scapegoats is long over. If we want the world to change we should start with ourselves. The rest will follow.

 

[roger1440]

The Messiah

"In the modern world, Reform Judaism has long denied that there will be an individual messiah who will carry out the task of perfecting the world. Instead, the movement speaks of a future world in which human efforts, not a divinely sent messenger, will bring about a utopian age. The Reform idea has influenced many non*Orthodox Jews: The oft*noted attraction of Jews to liberal and left*wing political causes probably represents a secular attempt to usher in a messianic age."

The Messiah

 

[dantech]

Ambiguous Guy, I just saw how you debated with Akivah, and have no desire to debate with you anymore.
He clearly pointed out all the flawed thinking in your arguments, and you just brushed it aside as if what he said was nonsense.
You're doing a great job of convincing yourself things...
Anyways, have a good day.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Then again the prophecy is worthless because a lot of people have been at peace with the world since before Jesus.

Belief in prophecy is like belief in Ouija Boards. It's magical thinking, in my view.

And as with a Ouija Board, with prophecy you can make any message appear which you want to appear.

It startled me when I realized that you believe in prophecy. Not sure why except that I had a different understanding of your outlook.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Ambiguous Guy, I just saw how you debated with Akivah, and have no desire to debate with you anymore.

Anymore? You haven't debated with me at all so far as I can remember.

He clearly pointed out all the flawed thinking in your arguments, and you just brushed it aside as if what he said was nonsense.

You're confused. He didn't even address me.

 

[dantech]

Then again the prophecy is worthless because a lot of people have been at peace with the world since before Jesus.

Frustrating, isn't it...

I've been through this so many times. I always get frustrated at the lack of logic, and yet I can't keep away. Something always pulls me back into these arguments.

 

[dantech]

You're confused. He didn't even address me.

I don't think I'm confused.

Wow, a simple direct sentence interpreted into uselessness. First, AG applies strict literal language to the first half of the sentence and states that swords aren’t used in modern warfare. Then he uses figurative language for the second half of the sentence about no more learning about war. No one ever mashes literal and figurative writing together in the same sentence.

Next AG ignores that swords were used to kill people for a thousand years after his god allegedly lived. Other Christians chimed in that peace will occur at some future time. So they all admit that peace didn’t happen when their man was living. With this interpretation, the prophecy applies to everyone on the planet. AG says as much when he posts that he could fulfill his interpretation of the prophecy himself. So much for jesus being special. There is no logical rationale to applying a future occurrence of peace to one specific person that might have lived thousands of years ago. And if it hasn't happened yet, then no one can claim to have fulfilled it.



As AG says that “their land” means the whole world, then this was always true at all times. Why have a prophecy for something that has always been true. Even more, why have someone claim to be special doing something that already exists.

To cover AG’s bases in case “their land” doesn’t include the whole world, AG gets the prophecy to fit by claiming that any Jew that doesn’t live in Israel, isn’t a “real” Jew. Again, if this is true, then it has always been true. No future prophecy and no one can claim to be special for having something be true than can only be true.





What’s the continuity of AG’s statement to his prior statement? If the whole world was our land, then why did G-d state that we were divided into two nations? And for a long time after his god’s alleged life, the Jews didn’t have any nation. Again, if this biblical statement has always been true, then it isn’t a prophecy. And no one can claim anything based on it always being true.

That is what AG’s fulfillments are. Point to a statement of obviousness and then claim his god did it. “Hey look, the sky is blue. Must be jesus!

 

[dantech]

Anymore? You haven't debated with me at all so far as I can remember.

The "Anymore" was referring to the fact that prior to that post, I did want to debate with you.

 

[Me Myself]

Belief in prophecy is like belief in Ouija Boards. It's magical thinking, in my view.

And as with a Ouija Board, with prophecy you can make any message appear which you want to appear.

It startled me when I realized that you believe in prophecy. Not sure why except that I had a different understanding of your outlook.

Oh I never said I do.

The thread is made with the premise that prophesies are a reasonable way to point at who is e messiah.

If you dont believe them to be so and are arguing from the sense that they dont, then that explains it.

 

[Me Myself]

We can only answer for ourselves, not other people. Peace isn’t about others, it’s about us. The time for scapegoats is long over. If we want the world to change we should start with ourselves. The rest will follow.

I thi of ten of your answrs, 9 are completely off subject, and this is a good example of that.

The prophecy says that the messiah would cause world peace this obviously hasnt happened. So its unfulfilled.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

The "Anymore" was referring to the fact that prior to that post, I did want to debate with you.

OK. Lots of people are put off by my irrefutable logic, smooth presentation, clear language and unassailable rationality.

So I understand when people don't want to debate me.

It's so sad being me!

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Oh I never said I do.

The thread is made with the premise that prophesies are a reasonable way to point at who is e messiah.

If you dont believe them to be so and are arguing from the sense that they dont, then that explains it.

No, I'm not arguing that prophecy is bunk. I'm arguing that anyone is confused who sees no ambiguity in language. If a person is certain that Jesus did (or did not) fulfill the prophecies, I believe that person is confused about thought and language -- not to mention confused about God.

I think I said that in my first message to you.

 

[CMike]

My comments in blue.

No, I'm not arguing that prophecy is bunk. I'm arguing that anyone is confused who sees no ambiguity in language. If a person is certain that Jesus did (or did not) fulfill the prophecies, I believe that person is confused about thought and language -- not to mention confused about God.

I think I said that in my first message to you.

Okay let's take your responses.

Originally Posted by CMike
3. And he shall judge between many peoples and reprove mighty nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nations shall not lift the sword against nation; neither shall they learn war anymore.

Jesus has judged and reproved many nations. His evangelists are still pursuing that even today, and the Christian leaders of Rome, Britain, the US, etc. have certainly judged and reproved many nations.

Many swords have been beaten into plowshares, and spears into pruning hooks. I could go out and fulfill this one in Jesus' name tomorrow. Just a visit to a blacksmith.

So far as I know, no nation uses swords anymore to make war against other nations, although I'm not sure if that's Jesus' fault. But I can make a good case for it if you like.

As for 'they shall not learn war', that's obviously figurative language. The prophesy is about spiritual, ideological warfare, in the style of the Cold War except on steriods, and no nations have been doing that for centuries now. Christianity infused itself into every nation and put a stop to that.

As was pointed out even after jesus people used swords.

Does it say anywhere that it's talking figuratively? if so please post that part?

21. And say to them, So says the Lord God: Behold I will take the children of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side, and I will bring them to their land.

All Jews are now in their land. That's an especially easy one. In fact, I'd like to hear why you think that all Jews are not in their land. Surely you aren't thinking that 'their land' means the current political boundaries of Israel?? Surely not. The whole world is the land of the Jews. So why aren't all Jews now in their land? Are some in outer space? If so, I am willing to extend Jewish land out there.

Anyway, if a Jew doesn't care enough to be in his land, we could say he's not a real Jew. It would be easy to argue that all Jews are now within the political boundaries of Israel. The ones outside are not really Jews.
Their land is Israel.

The prophesy says that they will be gathered and brought into the land? So what land are they talking about?

Are they to be gathered and be brought to the land that they are already in?

How does that make an iota of sense?

22. And I will make them into one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel, and one king shall be to them all as a king; and they shall no longer be two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms anymore.

I don't get it. You think that the Jews are now divided into two nations? Why do you think that? There is one Jewish nation and one king (prime minister, Jesus, New World Order, whatever). Therefore the prophecy is fulfilled.
So you are saying that the prime minister of Israel is Jesus?

Jesus was never any unified king/leader of israel.

If you are saying it's talking about the prime minister of Israel, then Netanyahu would be very surprised to learn that he is the messiah. I'm sure he would be happy for the world peace.

Let me know if you have others that especially interest you. I have to say that the ones I've skipped seem even easier than the ones I've done.

But I'll do two more if it's really important to you. Just name them.

And thanks for listening.

Go ahead. It's rather amusing to see the nonsense you are coming up with.

 

[CMike]

How do you know that the Jews ALL being in Israel and the Temple being constructed isn't part of a final phase of the ages ushered in by the individual?

Like I said, look at how over 51% of the world population believes in the Abrahamic god. Quite a difference from 30 A.D. That's progress!

What "final phase of the ages ushered in by the individual"?

Where is that in the Tanach?

 

[Me Myself]

No, I'm not arguing that prophecy is bunk. I'm arguing that anyone is confused who sees no ambiguity in language. If a person is certain that Jesus did (or did not) fulfill the prophecies, I believe that person is confused about thought and language -- not to mention confused about God.

I think I said that in my first message to you.

I dont even understand what you said there.

Do you believe prophecies are a good method to point at the true messiah and discard the fake ones yes or no?

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

I dont even understand what you said there.

Do you believe prophecies are a good method to point at the true messiah and discard the fake ones yes or no?

No. I believe prophecies are bunk and messiahs are bunk. But that's not what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that certainty about the fulfillment of prophecy is an error. All language necessarily contains ambiguity. Anyone who is certain of his own interpretation is confused about language.

Usually he's just so prejudiced toward his own religious assumptions that he sincerely sees others as 'twisting the words.'

He can't see that he himself is also necessarily twisting them. He's too close to his own beliefs to see that.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

As was pointed out even after jesus people used swords.

I've addressed that already. You didn't tell me that Jesus had to complete all the prophecies before his death. If you want me to properly explain the prophecies, you have to tell my your criteria. I can easily explain how he fulfilled them all before his death, but I have to first know that it's your personal requirement.

Does it say anywhere that it's talking figuratively? if so please post that part?

I think you must be joking. You think the holy text must announce: "The following piece of business is figurative, rather than literal"?

So then you think that the Garden of Eden and the snake were literal?

Not me. I think each person decides whether something is figurative or literal.

Their land is Israel.

That's a fine opinion. I disagree with it.

The prophesy says that they will be gathered and brought into the land? So what land are they talking about?

Already answered. The whole world is the land of the Jews. Unless one happens to be an astronaut, in which case local space is also the land of the Jews.

Are they to be gathered and be brought to the land that they are already in?

How does that make an iota of sense?

They are gathered as Jews, separate from non-Jews. Of course, that's just one view of it. The truth is that we are all Jews. I myself am Jewish on even days of the month and non-Jewish on odd days.

So you are saying that the prime minister of Israel is Jesus?

No, that's silly. The prime minister is the king. He's only a stand-in messiah. The actual messiah is already in heaven.

Jesus was never any unified king/leader of israel.

He is so even today. Israel couldn't survive without the Christian West, after all.

Go ahead. It's rather amusing to see the nonsense you are coming up with.

Forgive me saying so, but my nonsense is clearly of a higher quality than your own nonsense. I really do think so. But don't let it get you down. I most probably have years of experience on you.

 

[roger1440]

Has anyone given any thought the prophesies are not of future events but a transforming condition of the spirit?

 

[Me Myself]

No. I believe prophecies are bunk and messiahs are bunk. But that's not what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that certainty about the fulfillment of prophecy is an error. All language necessarily contains ambiguity. Anyone who is certain of his own interpretation is confused about language.

Usually he's just so prejudiced toward his own religious assumptions that he sincerely sees others as 'twisting the words.'

He can't see that he himself is also necessarily twisting them. He's too close to his own beliefs to see that.

Then this perspective is not really comparible wi the purpose of the thread.

I do understand the persoective by the way. I think it contains some truth in it.

But thats not the point. We can transform any sentence to mean anythhing but we can also see patterns of communication to predict a more likely message.

In any case, tht argument definetely is for another kind of thread.