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Which prophecies did Jesus fulfill as to be the Messiah?

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
In summary you accept that Jesus did not fulfill the totality of the prophecies for the messiah.
No I don't. Jesus has fulfilled every one on the extensive list I provided.

You think the jews should have accepted him as the messiah because he made some promises which he has taken his time to fulfill... Two thousand years and counting that is.

No, I think it was always going to be the same old story with the Jews....history repeating. It was prophesied that only a remnant would respond....and only a remnant did.

A lot of people make promises. Jesus himself said that making miracles cannot be enough justification to trust someone.
It was certainly not the miracles alone that proved his credentials.
He had all the other proofs as well. His teachings were always in accord with scripture because he denounced the oral traditions that had taken precedence over God's word in Jewish worship. He castigated the Pharisees at every opportunity for their neglect of the sheep.

You also provide excuses as to why God might have "changed his mind" regarding his prophecies.
Did I? Where was that? He does not change his mind on prophesy ever.

Part of the test for a true prophet was that he spoke in the name of YHWH and his prophesy came true. If the prophesy was yet future, then the test has not yet been completed.

I guess those would be consistent with a non omniscient god.

Then again, maybe you don't believe god to be omniscient.

He is definitely omniscient. But his omniscience does not alter prophesy.
Allowing others freedom of choice doesn't alter it either.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
No I don't. Jesus has fulfilled every one on the extensive list I provided.



No, I think it was always going to be the same old story with the Jews....history repeating. It was prophesied that only a remnant would respond....and only a remnant did.


It was certainly not the miracles alone that proved his credentials.
He had all the other proofs as well. His teachings were always in accord with scripture because he denounced the oral traditions that had taken precedence over God's word in Jewish worship. He castigated the Pharisees at every opportunity for their neglect of the sheep.


Did I? Where was that? He does not change his mind on prophesy ever.

Part of the test for a true prophet was that he spoke in the name of YHWH and his prophesy came true. If the prophesy was yet future, then the test has not yet been completed.



He is definitely omniscient. But his omniscience does not alter prophesy.
Allowing others freedom of choice doesn't alter it either.

Why do you keep contradicting yourself so much and so obviously o_O

He said that there would be peace in Israel and amo the nations and mong jews.

You are saying this is impossible. Who is right, you or god?
 

roger1440

I do stuff
Matthew 23:8-11

New International Version (NIV)

8 “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. 11 The greatest among you will be your servant.
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
Why do you keep contradicting yourself so much and so obviously o_O

He said that there would be peace in Israel and amo the nations and mong jews.

You are saying this is impossible. Who is right, you or god?

You are assuming that Israel is literal Israel. I do not believe that literal Israel has any place in the fulfillment of the Bible's future prophesies.

I believe that Jesus cast them off once God's promise to produce the Messiah was fulfilled.

"“Yerushalayim! Yerushalayim! You kill the prophets! You stone those who are sent to you! How often I wanted to gather your children, just as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, but you refused! 38 Look! God is abandoning your house to you, leaving it desolate.[a] 39 For I tell you, from now on, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of Adonai.’
(Matt 23:37-39)

Spiritual Israel came into existence after Messiah's death.
The apostle Paul called them "the Israel of God" (Gal 6:16) and these were made up of both Jews and gentiles.

"For the real Jew is not merely Jewish outwardly: true circumcision is not only external and physical. 29 On the contrary, the real Jew is one inwardly; and true circumcision is of the heart, spiritual not literal; so that his praise comes not from other people but from God." (Rom 2:28, 29)

A remnant of literal Israel is included in "spiritual" Israel, but the nation as a whole chose the wrong ones to listen to, as the Bible indicates, this was always their downfall....the leopard does not change his spots. :(
 
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Me Myself

Back to my username
You are assuming that Israel is literal Israel. I do not believe that literal Israel has any place in the fulfillment of the Bible's future prophesies.

So christianity changed the whole meaning of the prophecies and then fulfilled them. :biglaugh:

So when the prophecies say that nations will not know war thanks to e messiah, to what do you change the meaning of that to? :biglaugh:
 

Shermana

Heretic
So christianity changed the whole meaning of the prophecies and then fulfilled them. :biglaugh:

So when the prophecies say that nations will not know war thanks to e messiah, to what do you change the meaning of that to? :bigluagh:

As I've said, the exact meaning of the prophecies, and which verses are prophecies are actually such to begin with, is not as clear as some would like you to think. On both ends.

However, keep in mind that there were many thousands of Jews at the time who DID believe the prophecies had been fulfilled by this man.

And even the Chief author and "founding Father" of the Talmud, and his thousands of disciples, apparently didn't have the same interpretation of the Prophecies as the later Rabbis did, when he picked Bar Kokhba as the designated fulfiller of them.

Does this mean either of these groups were right? Not necessarily. What it means however is that this notion that there's one official version of the what the prophecies are supposed to be objectively speaking, as if it's the same as back in the day, is nowhere close to true.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
As I've said, the exact meaning of the prophecies, and which verses are prophecies are actually such to begin with, is not as clear as some would like you to think. On both ends.

However, keep in mind that there were many thousands of Jews at the time who DID believe the prophecies had been fulfilled by this man.

And even the Chief author and "founding Father" of the Talmud, and his thousands of disciples, apparently didn't have the same interpretation of the Prophecies as the later Rabbis did, when he picked Bar Kokhba as the designated fulfiller of them.

Does this mean either of these groups were right? Not necessarily. What it means however is that this notion that there's one official version of the what the prophecies are supposed to be objectively speaking, as if it's the same as back in the day, is nowhere close to true.

To e least, that makes God an extremely poor communicator :s
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
So, in which ways did the nations decided not to learn war anymore in the times of Jesus and then on for ever and ever?
 

Shermana

Heretic
So, in which ways did the nations decided not to learn war anymore in the times of Jesus and then on for ever and ever?

Once again, the concept may be interpreted as the end result of a series of ages instigated by the arrival of the Messiah.

For instance, the Jews are now returning to the Land of Israel.

Likewise, the number of Monotheistic people who believe (or think they believe) in the same god as the Jews has risen from .25% of the population to over 51%.

It's not the overnight process many Rabbis seem to insist.

What they want to insist is that these prophecies are a checklist of how to vet the Messiah claimant. That's not how it works. It's more of a prophecy of what will happen after he arrives, whether it takes 20 years, 2000, or more.
 

dantech

Well-Known Member
As I've said, the exact meaning of the prophecies, and which verses are prophecies are actually such to begin with, is not as clear as some would like you to think. On both ends.

However, keep in mind that there were many thousands of Jews at the time who DID believe the prophecies had been fulfilled by this man.

And even the Chief author and "founding Father" of the Talmud, and his thousands of disciples, apparently didn't have the same interpretation of the Prophecies as the later Rabbis did, when he picked Bar Kokhba as the designated fulfiller of them.

Does this mean either of these groups were right? Not necessarily. What it means however is that this notion that there's one official version of the what the prophecies are supposed to be objectively speaking, as if it's the same as back in the day, is nowhere close to true.

Sorry but this is not completely true. The "founder" did believe Bar Kochba was going to be the messiah, however once Bar Kochba failed at fulfilling the prophecies, there were no more doubts as to whether he was or wasn't. Which isn't the case with Jesus. The early

Christians believed in the exact same prophecies the Jews did. And they interpreted them the same way. They thought Jesus was going to be The messiah. Once Jesus did not accomplish all the prophecies during his lifetime, those same prophecies they expected him to accomplish, they started reinterpretting them to fit their beliefs.
 

roger1440

I do stuff
It was certainly not the miracles alone that proved his credentials.
In chapter six of the Gospel of Mark Jesus feds 5000 people with a few measly loaves of bread and a couple of fish. For an encore Jesus performs a similar miracle in chapter eight of the Gospel of Mark. This time he feds 4000 people. Together this makes 9000 people. Many Christians believe these events as wondrous miracles performed by Jesus. I see the greater miracle as Jesus somehow was able to assemble 5000 absent minded Jews who forgot to pack a lunch that day and for an encore he had repeated the miracle with 4000 people. Then for the grand finale there is no record of this in history outside the canonical Gospels. If each of the 9000 absent minded Jews mentioned these miracles to only 2 friends that would add up to 18,000 friends. When we add the 9000 eye witnesses to the 18,000 friends we come up with 27,000 stories. Granted, a few percent of people during that period could read and write. Let’s say 5 percent. That would come to 1,350 people. Of the 1,350 that could read and write let’s say only 5% were willing to write about the events. 5% of 1350 would come to about 68 people. Yet we only have the accounts in the canonical Gospels. Now that’s what I call a miracle, WOW.
 

roger1440

I do stuff
Another miracle I see in the canonical Gospels is nowhere does it mentions that Jesus was able to scream extremely loud. The audience in the picture below is probably less than 500 people. Jesus preached in front of 5000 people according to the Gospel of Mark in chapter six. That is ten times the amount of people in this picture. In order for Jesus to be heard, his voice would had to have been extremely loud.
Concerts.ashx
 

roger1440

I do stuff
The following verses imply Jesus’s preaching went on for many hours. Yet if we were to string end to end everything in the canonical Gospels that Jesus had said, minus the redundancy, it would take far less time to read. Either some of the things Jesus had preached about weren’t worthy to remember or these hungry Jews just plain forgot. Yeah, that’s what happen, they forgot. With all the growling in there stomach going on, they had other things on their mind.

35 By this time it was late in the day, so his disciples came to him. “This is a remote place,” they said, “and it’s already very late. 36 Send the people away so that they can go to the surrounding countryside and villages and buy themselves something to eat.” (Mark 6:35-44)
 
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Akivah

Well-Known Member
It is my understanding that if a person was a Jewish convert, even though he lived and worshipped the same as Jews did, limitations were placed on proselytes that were not applicable to natural born Jews.

Nope, many Jews are tribeless. A convert is a full Jew.

Can you tell me why Jews no longer offer sacrifices prescribed under the law?
How is atonement achieved since the animal sacrifices were discontinued? Where does it say in the Torah to stop the sacrifices?

Because within the sacrificial law, there are laws that strictly define where, what, and how to give sacrifices. Sacrifices can only be brought to the Temple in Jerusalem. It is actually a sin to bring sacrifices to another place. Christians make a major error in assuming that sacrifices must be made to atone for sins. Actually sacrifices could only be used to atone for unintentional sins. For anything that was done purposefully like robbery, adultery, etc, the rules of atonement don't include sacrifice. While the Temple was standing, most atonement took place without sacrifices. The basic steps for atonement for purposeful sins is 1) admit your error 2) make good with repayment or actions to the person that you wronged 3) seek forgivemess from the person that you wronged 4) swear to G-d that you won't repeat your error.

Thank you, there is another point for research. Could you provide some proof for your claim that other records were available outside Jerusalem?

The fact that we have records from then.

The Messiah is hardly an idol.
The person that Christians worship fits the definition of an idol. According to the dictionary, an idol is an image or other material object representing a deity to which religious worship is addressed or any person or thing regarded with blind admiration, adoration, or devotion.

Will the Messiah that you still await do more than Jesus did?
Obviously. The Christian idol led people away from G-d. The Christian man-god caused wars and bloodshed in his name. Like the fella said, he came to bring sword and bloodshed.

Can you trust the Pharisees of Jesus' day to not have executed an innocent man?
The Pharisees had no power to do a death sentence. The Romans took it away from them. Pilate was a brutal man who had no qualms about killing people. In fact, Rome eventually recalled him to Rome for being too bloody. Recalling the bloodiness of the Roman Coliseum, that is saying something. Your own bible says the Romans killed your man. However, John wrote in your bible to cast eternal blame on the Jewish people. Thanks for the Holocaust John!

Let's examine those prophesies that Jesus did not fulfill. Not one of them, you say? Please supply them so we can see how many he failed to fulfill.

I see that others have already posted them. And you have already twisted and contorted them to mean something else. Let's see you answer this question that I didn't see you answer yet.

For all positions and identifiers (such as President or Chairman of the Board), a person has to do things to qualify for the title, such as win a majority of votes. For the prophecies that your man didn't do (such as World Peace), I've read that Christians say he will do them in a second coming. Given that your man hasn't done all the prophecies (i.e. qualifications), how can you bestow a title upon him that he hasn't yet earned?
 
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outhouse

Atheistically
Another miracle I see in the canonical Gospels


Yet due to the contradictions of each gospels version, and the reality of first century Galilee, most scholars claim ths was not a real event.

The sermon on the mount or is it the valley floor?

Next, you dont ramble off those parables, one after another. Each one was important in its own right and took time to absorb.

One could not be heard by that many people, nor would it be possile to have that many poor peasants leave their work to listen to a sermon.


Most every credible scholar claims these are parables collected and redacted into the two different versions you read. Basically mythology, all we can do is hope the real sayings go back to the man himself and not the unknown authors who wrote different accounts.

Scholars claim this was the unknown authors paralleling and competing against the emperors divinity as he spoke in front of large crowds
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
Roger, you are completely out of subject.

As Jesus himself said, you dont trust someone justecaugpse he does wonders and tricks that cannot be explained. The egyptians also were able to do wonders according to the bible.

So, if Jesus said you dont trust someone because they do wonders, then dont. In any case, its simply not the suect of the thread. Many jews did wonders in the bible, but they werent the Messiahs

How did world peace came to be in Jesus lifestime?

The jews are still not united, the sons of jacob are still not united, nor are all of them in Israel.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
. A convert is a full Jew.


Not really true before the temple fell.


There were many different types of converts or shall we call them Prosleytes. Judaism was not static, it was very dynamic during this period.

Hellenistic Jews had their own version of Judaism.


Just like the many different flavors of Judaism today, back then it was much worse with a very wide and diverse definition, if one could even define it.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
Not really true before the temple fell.


There were many different types of converts or shall we call them Prosleytes. Judaism was not static, it was very dynamic during this period.

Hellenistic Jews had their own version of Judaism.


Just like the many different flavors of Judaism today, back then it was much worse with a very wide and diverse definition, if one could even define it.
A convert is and always ways considered a full jew by jews.
 
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