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Which prophecies did Jesus fulfill as to be the Messiah?

CMike

Well-Known Member
You are assuming that Israel is literal Israel. I do not believe that literal Israel has any place in the fulfillment of the Bible's future prophesies.

I believe that Jesus cast them off once God's promise to produce the Messiah was fulfilled.

"“Yerushalayim! Yerushalayim! You kill the prophets! You stone those who are sent to you! How often I wanted to gather your children, just as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, but you refused! 38 Look! God is abandoning your house to you, leaving it desolate.[a] 39 For I tell you, from now on, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of Adonai (Matt 23:37-39)

Spiritual Israel came into existence after Messiah's death.
The apostle Paul called them "the Israel of God" (Gal 6:16) and these were made up of both Jews and gentiles.

"For the real Jew is not merely Jewish outwardly: true circumcision is not only external and physical. 29 On the contrary, the real Jew is one inwardly; and true circumcision is of the heart, spiritual not literal; so that his praise comes not from other people but from God." (Rom 2:28, 29)

A remnant of literal Israel is included in "spiritual" Israel, but the nation as a whole chose the wrong ones to listen to, as the Bible indicates, this was always their downfall....the leopard does not change his spots. :(
Since jesus really has no relevance in judaism, jews really don't care who jesus "cast off" or not.

Jews worship one G-D, and it's not jesus.

The jews decided to believe in their G-D and not a strange, unknown one. They have been forbidden to that.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
False. The bible tells us that a convert is the same as any other Jew. Ruth was a convert and she was an ancestor of King David.

False

Exact source and quote please.

Because we had many converts that were in all different stages of Judaism.

God-Fearers were called that not Jews, yet had worshipped Judaism for centuries and many helleistic generations.

Gate Proseytes were the same.



At this time I will ask you to refere to the Jewish encyclopedia and look up "Proselytes" You wind out many were considered Jews simply by swearing off all other pagan deities.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
A convert is and always ways considered a full jew by jews.

Yet there were many division in Judaism because it was so diverse before the temple fell.

There had been a standing rift between Hellenistic Judaism and its Proselytes and different sects of Judaism. these Proslytes ended up evolving into Christianity due to these differences.

What or how Judaism was defined before the fall of the temple was not something set in stone or even well defined during this period.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Metis, I didn't realize you believe the literal word of Torah, as you quote above. My own view is that G-d is not so anthropomorphic as to "give us his word". Our Covenent is what we make of it.

I don't believe in scriptural literalness, God, or the Covenant, and I wear different "kippas" depending on the situation.

I am also interested in your view on Judaism as a nationality and religion. I believe it is both.

Even though there are elements of both in each, they are not one and the same. Yes, our tradition has it that if one converts to Judaism that they become one with us, but being "Jewish" is still a nationality, especially when one considers the fact that many Jews are totally secular, plus some have converted to other faiths.
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
Even though there are elements of both in each, they are not one and the same. Yes, our tradition has it that if one converts to Judaism that they become one with us, but being "Jewish" is still a nationality, especially when one considers the fact that many Jews are totally secular, plus some have converted to other faiths.

:yes: There is no real definition of "Jewish" today, just as there is no real definition of "Christian" in amongst all the various 'branches'.

There has to be one truth because the truth doesn't have "branches". :sad:
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
So, I understand christianity decided that "Israel" didnt actually mean israel on the prophecy saying jews will come to israel.

How did it change "nations will no longer know war " so that Jesus somehow accomplished this but there are still wars everywhere?
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
Nope, many Jews are tribeless. A convert is a full Jew.
Can we say the same about this in ancient times?

Although the terms of the Law covenant allowed for persons of all national backgrounds to come into membership of the congregation of Israel by accepting the true worship of Jehovah and becoming circumcised, there were exceptions and restrictions. The Egyptians and Edomites could not enter into the congregation until the third generation, that is, the third generation living in the land of Israel. (Deut 23:7, 8) Illegitimate sons and their descendants were denied entry into the congregation “to the tenth generation.” (Deut 23:2) Ammonites and Moabites were prohibited “to the tenth generation . . . to time indefinite . . . You must not work for their peace and their prosperity all your days to time indefinite.” (Deut 23:3-6) These restrictions all applied to males of these nations. Also, no male mutilated in his sexual parts could ever become a member of the congregation. (Deut 23:1)

Because within the sacrificial law, there are laws that strictly define where, what, and how to give sacrifices. Sacrifices can only be brought to the Temple in Jerusalem. It is actually a sin to bring sacrifices to another place. Christians make a major error in assuming that sacrifices must be made to atone for sins. Actually sacrifices could only be used to atone for unintentional sins.
If the temple was the only place for sacrifice to be offered under the law, then when did God say to discontinue the sacrifices?

Why not build another temple as had been done before?
Why did Judaism allow their enemies to rob them of their temple?
If it was the place for God to inhabit by spirit, where is he in today's Judaism?

In Psalm 80:1 God is described as " you who are sitting upon the cherubs"
This is alluding to the Most Holy part of the Temple where the Shekinah light indicated God's presence above the cherubs on the cover of the ark.
Where is God's presence for Jews today?

For anything that was done purposefully like robbery, adultery, etc, the rules of atonement don't include sacrifice.
The law stated that capital offenses required the death penalty. Are these still carried out in Israel?
The law required criminals to compensate their victims....is this still carried out?

There were no prisons in ancient Israel because there was no need for them. What does incarceration accomplish? Does Israel have prisons today?

While the Temple was standing, most atonement took place without sacrifices. The basic steps for atonement for purposeful sins is 1) admit your error 2) make good with repayment or actions to the person that you wronged 3) seek forgivemess from the person that you wronged 4) swear to G-d that you won't repeat your error.
This may represent the modern day interpretation, but what do you understand Lev 1:1-9 to be speaking about?

The fact that we have records from then.
Do you know where they were procured from? How accurate are they?

With the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple in 70 C.E., the family records of the Levites were lost or destroyed, bringing the Levitical system to an end. How does a priest prove that he is of the correct tribe today?

How far removed is modern day Judaism from its ancient roots?....about as far away as Christendom is from hers. :(

The person that Christians worship fits the definition of an idol. According to the dictionary, an idol is an image or other material object representing a deity to which religious worship is addressed or any person or thing regarded with blind admiration, adoration, or devotion.
I have to agree with you here. Christendom has made an idol out of both the Christ and his religious symbol. Neither of which is supported in the Bible.

I believe that both Judaism and Christendom (as opposed to true Christianity) have lost their way.

Obviously. The Christian idol led people away from G-d. The Christian man-god caused wars and bloodshed in his name. Like the fella said, he came to bring sword and bloodshed.
Again you speak of Christendom, not Christianity. There is a huge difference.

The devil has led people away from God since the beginning. He uses whatever works. He has no scruples. Religion works for him.

The Pharisees had no power to do a death sentence.The Romans took it away from them.
According to the Greek scriptures, it was only after the Jews threatened to report Pilate for sedition that he handed Jesus over to be executed. It was the Jews who wanted him dead, not the Romans. Pilate found no guilt in Jesus and wanted to release him.

Pilate was a brutal man who had no qualms about killing people. In fact, Rome eventually recalled him to Rome for being too bloody. Recalling the bloodiness of the Roman Coliseum, that is saying something. Your own bible says the Romans killed your man.
The Bible has Christ asking his Father to forgive the ones carrying out the sentence because they didn't know what they were doing. The soldiers were just doing their job, as they had done hundreds of times already.
Jesus wasn't asking forgiveness for the Jews because they did know what they were doing. Jesus died because the Jews demanded it.

However, John wrote in your bible to cast eternal blame on the Jewish people. Thanks for the Holocaust John!
What? :confused:
If there was a blessing or a curse on the Jews, your own scripture says that it is by your own choice. (Deut 11:26-28)

If the Jews were really God's people, why did he allow the holocaust in the first place? God delivered his people through the Red Sea....where was he in Nazi Germany?
I know that many Jews renounced their faith after that experience. But who failed? God or man? Who always failed? It was never God.

I see that others have already posted them. And you have already twisted and contorted them to mean something else. Let's see you answer this question that I didn't see you answer yet.

For all positions and identifiers (such as President or Chairman of the Board), a person has to do things to qualify for the title, such as win a majority of votes. For the prophecies that your man didn't do (such as World Peace), I've read that Christians say he will do them in a second coming. Given that your man hasn't done all the prophecies (i.e. qualifications), how can you bestow a title upon him that he hasn't yet earned?
I think we need to add a qualifier here don't we?.......YET.

If this applies to your expectation of a yet to be revealed Messiah, then why do you disallow it for ours? He will yet fulfill all that is written.

You believe this too...don't you?
 

Shermana

Heretic
Sorry but this is not completely true. The "founder" did believe Bar Kochba was going to be the messiah, however once Bar Kochba failed at fulfilling the prophecies, there were no more doubts as to whether he was or wasn't. Which isn't the case with Jesus. The early

The point is that Bar Kokhba was declared Messiah in the first place. What did he fulfill, especially to be given this claim so quickly by the Granddaddy of the Talmud? Was it merely because he was a military leader rising up against the Romans? Where is the prophecy for that one?

Christians believed in the exact same prophecies the Jews did. And they interpreted them the same way. They thought Jesus was going to be The messiah. Once Jesus did not accomplish all the prophecies during his lifetime, those same prophecies they expected him to accomplish, they started reinterpretting them to fit their beliefs.

Not necessarily. Besides, the Nazarenes and Ebionites apparently still believed in him after he was crucified, why would that they do that? Why would they just reinterpret them and stay within a highly persecuted and isolated group? Those guys were very strict Jews for the most part, except for factions of the Ebionites that came from the Essenes and didn't believe in the Animal sacrifices.

I think it's clear that the exact interpretation of the Messianic prophecies was never as solid and concrete as it's become recently, back then. Perhaps we will one day receive a modern day prophet to tell us exactly what they mean, and what they are in the first place.
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
So, I understand christianity decided that "Israel" didnt actually mean israel on the prophecy saying jews will come to israel.

I believe that "Israel" today is a spiritual nation. God kept natural Israel in exisence through a very checkered history; at times wanting to 'put an end to them' because of their frequent excursions into disobedience and false worship. (Ex 32:10) He punished them and corrected them and forgave them time after time, but once he produced the promised Messiah, his end of the bargain was fulfilled. He then gave Israel first opportunity to become disciples of his Christ, but they rejected him, preferring to stick with their old ways.
Then, true to his promise to Abraham, "all nation" were then given opportunity to receive the blessing by following the teachings of the promised seed.

Fleshly Israel failed but spiritual Israel didn't.

How did it change "nations will no longer know war " so that Jesus somehow accomplished this but there are still wars everywhere?

To tell you the truth, Jesus true disciples have never engaged in war...that is how you know that they are the genuine article.

Jesus taught us to love our enemies...it's impossible to do that with a gun, a tank or a bomb. Christians cannot even train to kill, so you will not find them in the military supporting the world's political agendas.

Look in the jails for the conscientious objectors in war time and you will find the true Christians there.

“The earliest Christians did not serve in the armed forces,” stated an article in The Christian Century magazine. It explained that until the decade of 170-180 C.E., there is no evidence whatever that Christians served in the army. The article then adds: “Only gradually did Christians abandon their opposition to military service.”

Since an apostasy was foretold for Christianity not long after the death of the apostles, this is not surprising.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
I believe that "Israel" today is a spiritual nation. God kept natural Israel in exisence through a very checkered history; at times wanting to 'put an end to them' because of their frequent excursions into disobedience and false worship. (Ex 32:10) He punished them and corrected them and forgave them time after time, but once he produced the promised Messiah, his end of the bargain was fulfilled. He then gave Israel first opportunity to become disciples of his Christ, but they rejected him, preferring to stick with their old ways.
Then, true to his promise to Abraham, "all nation" were then given opportunity to receive the blessing by following the teachings of the promised seed.

Fleshly Israel failed but spiritual Israel didn't.



To tell you the truth, Jesus true disciples have never engaged in war...that is how you know that they are the genuine article.

Jesus taught us to love our enemies...it's impossible to do that with a gun, a tank or a bomb. Christians cannot even train to kill, so you will not find them in the military supporting the world's political agendas.

Look in the jails for the conscientious objectors in war time and you will find the true Christians there.

“The earliest Christians did not serve in the armed forces,” stated an article in The Christian Century magazine. It explained that until the decade of 170-180 C.E., there is no evidence whatever that Christians served in the army. The article then adds: “Only gradually did Christians abandon their opposition to military service.”

Since an apostasy was foretold for Christianity not long after the death of the apostles, this is not surprising.

The prophecy didnt say the messiah's "true" disciples wouldnt engage in warfare. That would have been a completely useless prophecy. You just take the followers that never did war and say those are the "true" ones.

The prophecy said THE NATIONS wouldnt know how to make warfare anymore.

At least ithe other one you said how you changed the meainigs of the words, in these one you flat out just invented a new prophecy without even the pretention of it looking like the old one.
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
The prophecy didnt say the messiah's "true" disciples wouldnt engage in warfare. That would have been a completely useless prophecy. You just take the followers that never did war and say those are the "true" ones.

The prophesy is for the "final part of the days"....which is yet future, so in the final fulfillment NO ONE will be declaring or learning war anymore.
In the meantime, the way to identify the true followers of Christ is to see who are strictly obeying his teachings. It is the ones who show love, not only to their brothers but to even their enemies.

Just like Judaism, you can't pick and choose what suits...it's all or nothing. :(

The prophecy said THE NATIONS wouldnt know how to make warfare anymore.
And they won't. The "great and fear inspiring day of Jehovah" with Christ as champion, will have cleansed the earth of all who want to embrace violence and hatred. (2 Thess 1:6-9)

At least ithe other one you said how you changed the meainigs of the words, in these one you flat out just invented a new prophecy without even the pretention of it looking like the old one.
Nonsense. The Bible says what it says...you can't take a prophesy and apply it in your own way and then tell someone else they can't understand it in their own way.

Someone is right and someone is wrong. That is why there are only "sheep" and "goats" in this world of diverse and conflicting religions.

That is why there are only two roads....we are all on either one or the other. (Matt 7:13, 14) There is no fence in between to sit on.

Religion only comes in two varieties from God's standpoint...true and false. We better figure out which one we are supporting....and soon. :sad:
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
The prophesy is for the "final part of the days"....which is yet future, so in the final fulfillment NO ONE will be declaring or learning war anymore.

So you do are aware that Jesus DID NOT fulfill all e prophecies concerning the Messiah, but you blame the jews for not beliving his promises that he will do it.

You know what? I am the real messiah.

I will fulfilll all of the prophecies really soon and if you dont believe me it will be your fault. :rolleyes:

Just like Judaism, you can't pick and choose what suits...it's all or nothing. :(

I take it that you follow the 613 mitzvot then, given you are so quick to judge who is picking and choosing.

Jesus said he did nt come to abolish the law, so, I hope you are eating kosher, as this law given by God for his chosen people has not been abolished.
 

roger1440

I do stuff
Roger, you are completely out of subject.

As Jesus himself said, you dont trust someone justecaugpse he does wonders and tricks that cannot be explained. The egyptians also were able to do wonders according to the bible.

So, if Jesus said you dont trust someone because they do wonders, then dont. In any case, its simply not the suect of the thread. Many jews did wonders in the bible, but they werent the Messiahs

How did world peace came to be in Jesus lifestime?

The jews are still not united, the sons of jacob are still not united, nor are all of them in Israel.
What "wonders"? Next you are going to tell me about Moses's magic stick.

[youtube]ahkwQhQZWG8[/youtube]
Let My People Go - The Ten Commandments (1/10) Movie CLIP (1956) HD - YouTube
 

roger1440

I do stuff
Roger, you are completely out of subject.

As Jesus himself said, you dont trust someone justecaugpse he does wonders and tricks that cannot be explained. The egyptians also were able to do wonders according to the bible.

So, if Jesus said you dont trust someone because they do wonders, then dont. In any case, its simply not the suect of the thread. Many jews did wonders in the bible, but they werent the Messiahs

How did world peace came to be in Jesus lifestime?

The jews are still not united, the sons of jacob are still not united, nor are all of them in Israel.

I don’t think I’m going off subject. Before anyone can answer the question, “Which prophecies did Jesus fulfill as to be the Messiah?” first we have to define who was or is Jesus. If it was so easy to answer there wouldn’t be over 10,000 flavors of Christianity. Next we have to define “Messiah” in first century tems.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
I don’t think I’m going off subject. Before anyone can answer the question, “Which prophecies did Jesus fulfill as to be the Messiah?” first we have to define who was or is Jesus. If it was so easy to answer there wouldn’t be over 10,000 flavors of Christianity. Next we have to define “Messiah” in first century tems.

If you want to define Jesus, go and make a thhread for it.

This is to see how did Jesus did or did not fulfill the prophecies.

So far, it seems he only fulfills them if you change them a lot and then say that even then some are not fulfilled yet.
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
So you do are aware that Jesus DID NOT fulfill all e prophecies concerning the Messiah

Did you read the list I posted about the prophesies he DID fulfill already? There are hundreds of them.

These count for nothing then, do they?

but you blame the jews for not beliving his promises that he will do it.
Christians have a Messiah who showed up two thousand years ago and fulfilled all that was written about him, except for what he will do in the near future when the kingdom rules the earth.

If the Jews chose not to believe him, who can they blame? :confused: The shepherds who were leading them allowed them to become "lost". Jesus came to gather the "lost sheep of the house of Israel". Since this was a recurring problem down through Israel's history, why would we be surprised if it happened again in Jesus' day? Israel had a habit of killing the prophets God sent to correct them. What makes you think it couldn't happen again?

Judaism, like Christendom, is a religious system that is not any resemblance to the original at all. Yet there is nothing in scripture to tell Jews that it is OK to do away with much of their religious instruction from the Bible.

Don't you have you ask why the temple was never rebuilt? It was an integral part of Jewish worship. Where does it say in the Torah that it is OK not to have a temple? What about the priesthood? No Levitical records are available to determine who is of the priestly class today, so why is that? Where are the priests?

Jews without a temple and without a priesthood is not what Judaism was originally....is it?

You know what? I am the real messiah.

I will fulfilll all of the prophecies really soon and if you dont believe me it will be your fault. :rolleyes:
You are free to believe whatever you like. You are free to accept or reject Jesus as Messiah. But since you don't even identify yourself a Jewish, I am a little puzzled by your defensiveness.

Just because Jesus doesn't fulfill prophesy the way some want him to, is no reason to get snarky. Even Jews today, who look at things objectively, have to take into account Israel's history and the way God dealt with his ancient people. If God doesn't change, and there is nothing in his word that excuses change, why is Jewish worship today different from what was prescribed in the Torah?

I take it that you follow the 613 mitzvot then, given you are so quick to judge who is picking and choosing.
I guess that is an admission that you do not keep all 613 mitzvot yourself then?
Do you have a scriptural excuse not to? Christians do.

Jesus said he did nt come to abolish the law, so, I hope you are eating kosher, as this law given by God for his chosen people has not been abolished.
I am a Christian and 'Christ is the end of the law' for us. As a Christian I do not eat unbled meat nor do I treat God's laws with contempt. Only a few "necessary things" were required of Christians. (Acts 15:28, 29) Christ came to fulfill the law and he did. It is summed up in 'the law of love'. (Matt 22:37-40; Gal. 5:14; Rom. 13:10; compare 1 John 4:20.)

Do you not see that Christ is calling all people from all nations to come together in worship of the only true God? He doesn't care what religion you come out of, as long as you get out of "Babylon the great" and come into his tent as his guest. (Psalm 15:1-5; Rev 18:4, 5) You take off your dirty shoes at the door.

Rev 21:3, 4 will be the finale of it all....." I heard a loud voice from the throne say, “See! God’s Sh’khinah is with mankind, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and he himself, God-with-them, will be their God. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes. There will no longer be any death; and there will no longer be any mourning, crying or pain; because the old order has passed away.” (CJB)This does not say that God's presence (Sh'kinah) is with the "Jews", but with "mankind". The 'old order' will be gone. There will be no such thing as 'religion' in the 'new order'.

The apostle Peter said, “I now understand that God does not play favorites, 35 but that whoever fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him, no matter what people he belongs to. (Acts 10:34, 35 CJB)

When will people stop the rot, put down their egos and really listen? :sad:

 
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CMike

Well-Known Member
The only thing that jesus did fulfill was he was from Bethlehem and rode a donkey. So have millions of others.

That's it.

Other so called prophesies are simply made up in the christian bible.

They are not part of the Tanach.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
Did you read the list I posted about the prophesies he DID fulfill already? There are hundreds of them.

These count for nothing then, do they?

Christians have a Messiah who showed up two thousand years ago and fulfilled all that was written about him, except for what he will do in the near future when the kingdom rules the earth.

If the Jews chose not to believe him, who can they blame? :confused: The shepherds who were leading them allowed them to become "lost". Jesus came to gather the "lost sheep of the house of Israel". Since this was a recurring problem down through Israel's history, why would we be surprised if it happened again in Jesus' day? Israel had a habit of killing the prophets God sent to correct them. What makes you think it couldn't happen again?

Judaism, like Christendom, is a religious system that is not any resemblance to the original at all. Yet there is nothing in scripture to tell Jews that it is OK to do away with much of their religious instruction from the Bible.

Don't you have you ask why the temple was never rebuilt? It was an integral part of Jewish worship. Where does it say in the Torah that it is OK not to have a temple? What about the priesthood? No Levitical records are available to determine who is of the priestly class today, so why is that? Where are the priests?

Jews without a temple and without a priesthood is not what Judaism was originally....is it?

You are free to believe whatever you like. You are free to accept or reject Jesus as Messiah. But since you don't even identify yourself a Jewish, I am a little puzzled by your defensiveness.

Just because Jesus doesn't fulfill prophesy the way some want him to, is no reason to get snarky. Even Jews today, who look at things objectively, have to take into account Israel's history and the way God dealt with his ancient people. If God doesn't change, and there is nothing in his word that excuses change, why is Jewish worship today different from what was prescribed in the Torah?

I guess that is an admission that you do not keep all 613 mitzvot yourself then?
Do you have a scriptural excuse not to? Christians do.

I am a Christian and 'Christ is the end of the law' for us. As a Christian I do not eat unbled meat nor do I treat God's laws with contempt. Only a few "necessary things" were required of Christians. (Acts 15:28, 29) Christ came to fulfill the law and he did. It is summed up in 'the law of love'. (Matt 22:37-40; Gal. 5:14; Rom. 13:10; compare 1 John 4:20.)

Do you not see that Christ is calling all people from all nations to come together in worship of the only true God? He doesn't care what religion you come out of, as long as you get out of "Babylon the great" and come into his tent as his guest. (Psalm 15:1-5; Rev 18:4, 5) You take off your dirty shoes at the door.

Rev 21:3, 4 will be the finale of it all....." I heard a loud voice from the throne say, “See! God’s Sh’khinah is with mankind, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and he himself, God-with-them, will be their God. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes. There will no longer be any death; and there will no longer be any mourning, crying or pain; because the old order has passed away.” (CJB)This does not say that God's presence (Sh'kinah) is with the "Jews", but with "mankind". The 'old order' will be gone. There will be no such thing as 'religion' in the 'new order'.

The apostle Peter said, “I now understand that God does not play favorites, 35 but that whoever fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him, no matter what people he belongs to. (Acts 10:34, 35 CJB)

When will people stop the rot, put down their egos and really listen? :sad:

As G-D said not to add nor subtract from his commandments, the only way to fulfill the law is to keep the law.
 
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