Which statement is more likely to be true:

[Penumbra]

No doubt.

I understand that you're using the word that way. It's just that others obviously aren't. That "existence is infinite" is our first clue. To see the way in which "existence is infinite," the first step is trying to see it from the other's point of view.

If I see it from the definition you are using, then existence is still not infinite.

Under the definition of existence referring to the state of existing, existence is a binary property. Either something exists, or it does not. Magnitude (and therefore finite or infinite claims) has no relevance.

 

[Bereanz]

Imagine a hotel with infinite rooms, numbered 1,2,3,4 and so on. Also imagine that every room is occupied, and that a new guest arrives who wants a room but doesn't have one. (Your example of a +1)

The guest can be accomadated easily: The person in room 1 moves to room 2, the person in room 2 moves to room 3, and so on. The new guest moves into room 1.

But the important thing here is that I've just put your +1 guest into the same-sized hotel. I haven't changed the hotel itself at all, only rearranged its contents. (Infinity +1) is the same as infinity itself.


Hawking has just published a book saying that God isn't necessary. Try again?

Hawking isn't necessary. Some body needs to buy that guy a set of golf clubs and keep him away from the computer. That book game out last year, it's old news. Apparently according to Hawking he is almost mathematically certain aliens exist, what in the name alibaba is that suposed to mean? ALMOST. HAH! Try again, at least come up with a better adverb.

Im quite amused that man stating that "God isn't necessary" is big news to athiests the world over

 

[micrurus]

i'll buy that definition, buthow does it substanciate your claim that existense is finite?

finite in what? in time? yes because time is finite
in space? yes because space is finite

 

[micrurus]

Hawking isn't necessary. Some body needs to buy that guy a set of golf clubs and keep him away from the computer. That book game out last year, it's old news. Apparently according to Hawking he is almost mathematically certain aliens exist, what in the name alibaba is that suposed to mean? ALMOST. HAH! Try again, at least come up with a better adverb.

the mathematic possibility os life occuring more than once in this universe is so great that it would be considered ignorant and close minded to deny it.

 

[Bereanz]

I'm aware that the Big Bang is a theory and that there are alternative theories explaining the origins of our universe, but considering our Universe is expanding outwards and considering what we know about the manner in which gravity holds planets together, it seems to make a fair bit of sense. I'm not saying it definitely is the case, just that it makes sense.
As far as the existence of everything is concerned, I don't think we can possibly know, it was to this that i said that "God did it" is presumptuous. I've not heard any scientific theories as to where reality itself came from, but if there are any I would consider them presumptuous too.

Dawkins... isn't the best when it comes to theology. He seems to have a chip on his shoulder about religion in general (Christianity in particular) and misses the point quite frequently.

Well Dawkins won the galaxy British Book award for the his twisted little Secular Humanist Manifesto; The God Delusion. He is the media darling as Hawkin, their puppets to keep the bline blind. Every one knows Dawkins is twister and bisted resentment ridden being so why does he get millions of dollars of free publicity on National News stations all over the western world which peddles his tripe to millions of gullible fools who believe it.

Expanding out wards, what do you mean? The first and second law of thermo-dynamics proves otherwise. Evolution i.e. that we humans are an unknown unexplainable accident of chance is a myth of epic proportion, it's time people stopped allowing themselves to de duped by this insanity. And I don't mean convert to religion as an alternative I just mean get freaken real.

 

[Bereanz]

the mathematic possibility os life occuring more than once in this universe is so great that it would be considered ignorant and close minded to deny it.

"Almost" does not enter into mathematical equations, keep it real, is all I'm asking. The Bible has been irrefuteably (not almost) "Definately", proven to have been written by a supernatural intelligence. And I mean a mathematically irrefutable CERTAINTY. And people can deny this until the cows home, it won't change the fact of the matter.

The existence or non existence of aliens is the king of moot points!

 

[micrurus]

Well Dawkins the galaxy British Book award for the his twisted little Secular Humanist Manifesto The God Delusion. He is the media darling. Every one knows he
is twisted little fool so why does he get millions of dollars of free publicity on National News stations all over the western world which peddles his tripe to millions of gullible fools who believe it.

Expanding out wards, what do you mean? The first and second law of thermo-dynamics proves otherwise. Evolution is a myth of epic proportion, it's time people stopped allowing themselves to de duped by this insanity. And I don't mean convert to religion as an alternative I just mean get freaken real.

hes a scientist, do you know where he is coming from? alot of scientists are not pleased with the way that religion in the past and the future stops the advancement of science. onley to take full advantage of it when it is impossible to deny. religious nations killing people that say the earth and then go occupy america when its discovered. even today, there are alot of scientists who feel offended by the fact that ID people push religeon into science classes and try to disprove evolution. while most of these people dont realise that in their daily lives they benefit from new medicines, genetic manipulated food and ather technologies that came from the TOE.

to scientists like dawking, religion is holding the world back, rejecting and demonising something of which they would benefit directly.

you can hardly judge him for being frustrated.

 

[micrurus]

"Almost" does not enter into mathematical equations, keep it real, is all I'm asking. The Bible has been irrefuteably (not almost) "Definately", proven to have been written by a supernatural intelligence. And I mean a mathematically irrefutable CERTAINTY. And people can deny this until the cows home, it won't change the fact of the matter.

The existence or non existence of aliens is the king of moot points!

never calculated with percentages?
if im 99.99% certain that im going to win the lottory, i am going to buy a ticket.

i would verry much be interested to see some reasorces of what you say about the bible here.

 

[Bereanz]

hes a scientist, do you know where he is coming from? alot of scientists are not pleased with the way that religion in the past and the future stop the advancement of science. onley to take full advantage of it when it is impossible to deny. christion nations killing people that say the earth and then go occupy america when its discovered. even today, there are alot of scientists who feel offended by the fact that ID people push religeon into science classes and try to disprove evolution. while most of these people dont realise that in their daily lives they benefit from new medicines, genetic manipulated food and ather technologies that came from the TOE.

to scientists like dawking, religion is holding the world back, rejecting and demonising something of which they would benefit directly.

you can hardly judge him for being frustrated.

Evolution needs to be proven before people need to attempt to try to disprove it. It has not been proven nor will it ever be, and yet it is taught in schools and universities the world over for the past 150 years AS PROVEN FACT! This is a pernicious lie not to mention a finely engineered conspiracy. And Dawkins is frustrated HAH! He's made millions out of disseminating lies. He's laughing all the way to bank mate. Do I know where he's coming from? Of course I do. Chapter Seven in the God delusion where Dawkins tries to attack the bible with a wet double decker bus ticket is the best example of dissinformation terrorism on this planet.

 

[micrurus]

Evolution needs to be proven before people need to attempt to try to disprove it. It has not been proven nor will it everr be, and yet it is taught in schools and universities the world over for the past 150 years. This is a pernicious lie not to mention a finely engineered conspiracy. And DAwkins is frustrated HAH! He's made millions out disseminating lies. He's laughing all the way to bank mate.

do you have any idea howmuch proof there was delivered in the dover trail. most of it so overwelming that th ID party didn't even dare to comment.

plese explain to me how that its terrorism?

 

[Bereanz]

do you have any idea howmuch proof there was delivered in the dover trail. most of it so overwelming that th ID party didn't even dare to comment.

plese explain to me how that its terrorism?

I said what Dawkins wrote about the Bible is disinformation terrorism, in fact how he twisted the truth of what is ACTUALLY written in the bible is nothing short of purgery.

We all know there are corrupt people in the world who commit henious crimes under the banner of "religion." No one can argue that. God if he does or does not exist has nothing to do with it. Nor does the book we call the Bible. And if he doesnt exist, then what is the excuse then? There isn't one!!

I'm sorry I dont know anything about the dover trail, but Im interested to find out about it. Im talking about Dawkins and The God Delusion.

 

[micrurus]

why do you permit yourself to critisice his worldview (hes an evolutionary biolobist) yet you cannot tolorate him critisicing your worldview

I said what Dawkins wrote about the Bible is disinformation terrorism, in fact how he twisted the truth of what is ACTUALLY written in the bible is nothing short of purgery.

We all know there are corrupt people in the world who commit henious crimes under the banner of "religion." No one can argue that. God if he does or does not exist has nothing to do with it. Nor does the book we call the Bible. And if he doesnt exist, then what is the excuse then? There isn't one!!

I'm sorry I dont know anything about the dover trail, but Im interested to find out about it. Im talking about Dawkins and The God Delusion.

why dawkings wrote the book.
[youtube]DMqTEfeqvmM[/youtube]
YouTube - Richard Dawkins -- The God Delusion

don't take my word for it.

 

[Bereanz]

why do you permit yourself to critisice his worldview (hes an evolutionary biolobist) yet you cannot tolorate him critisicing your worldview



why dawkings wrote the book.
[youtube]DMqTEfeqvmM[/youtube]
YouTube - Richard Dawkins -- The God Delusion

don't take my word for it.

I dont mind Him having a world view, I mind him telling bald face lies. Not to mention his world view is that people with a belief in God are insane and that the mere thought or concept of this world view is pernicious IE evil and that bringng ones children up with faith in God is Child abuse. Here endeth the lesson

 

[Jeremiah]

jeremiah, give one example of just one instance of existence being a finite thing.

ellen, you sure talk a lot to say NOTHING. you'de make a good politition.

"jeremiah, give one example of just one instance of existence being a finite thing."

You cannot step into the same river twice. -- Heraclitus 535 BC - 475 BC

This sentence does not exist. If we postulate that all of existence is in motion, then all that is existence must be temporal. Read the the first sentence of this paragraph again. It was a different sentence this time. It looked the same, but since you are looking at light, you are now looking at a different sentence. By the time you start reading this sentence to the time you reach the end you'll be reading a different sentence. All the others before are gone and they will not come back. What they were composed of may still be around, but they themselves are gone, and that state of existence will never again exist. Every moment is evanescent and every moment is unique, something that will never happen again, a one and only occurrence.

 

[PolyHedral]

"Almost" does not enter into mathematical equations, keep it real, is all I'm asking. The Bible has been irrefuteably (not almost) "Definately", proven to have been written by a supernatural intelligence. And I mean a mathematically irrefutable CERTAINTY. And people can deny this until the cows home, it won't change the fact of the matter.

The existence or non existence of aliens is the king of moot points!

Actually, you'll find that "almost surely" is a well-defined mathematical concept. Not to mention that "almost" forms an entire field of mathematics.

Also, I very much like the claim that you can mathematically prove that the Bible was written by God. What's God's public key, then?

 

[Bereanz]

Actually, you'll find that "almost surely" is a well-defined mathematical concept. Not to mention that "almost" forms an entire field of mathematics.

Also, I very much like the claim that you can mathematically prove that the Bible was written by God. What's God's public key, then?

Is there an entire field of mathematics called "close but no cigar" too? The keys to the Kingdom where handed to Satan, by none other than us.

 

[micrurus]

Is there an entire field of mathematics called "close but no cigar" too? The keys to the Kingdom where handed to Satan, by none other than us.

atleast satan onley killed 2 people in the bible ( with aproval from god) while your god is at 2 million +.

actions speak louder than words, god may tell you that he loves you, but hes more likely to be the true evil. Im happy that we made the right choise giving those keys to satan.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

"I don't think so. The problem of evil is easy enough to solve: take away the requirement that God must be perfectly good and the "problem" completely disappears."

That was not my point. A square circle is something that can not be held in the mind's eye, but the idea of a beneficent all-powerful god is. Just as the notion that somehow a creator of existence which, transcends or otherwise is not a part of existence, created existence. Perhaps not necessarily a contradiction, but could possibly be viewed as paradoxical.

If you can hold the idea of an omnimax god in your mind's eye, then you've got a better imagination than I do.

I can individually comprehend the meanings of all the terms used to describe such a god, but not the thing as a whole. In this regard, it's exactly the same as a square circle for me.

Well then you got the wrong sense. I actually considered those three terms on creation of the thread. I went with existence as I have used it in similar fashion before many times here with little problem. And despite the confusion it has caused, I still think, out of the three, it was the better fit. I think the other two would have only caused more confusion and distraction.

Hmm. It's hard for me to say what would be the best term to avoid confusion, since I'm still not entirely sure of what you're going for with "existence".

"Then maybe they haven't thought it through. Ask most of those people if God exists and they'll say "yes". Ask them if he existed before existence existed and you'll probably just get a puzzled look."

If they believe this god created existence then that god must have existed before existence.

And then, if they think it through, they'll realize that the existence of God implies the existence of existence, and that even God can't "create" something that already exists.

I understood it was inevitable that gods be dragged in. But I wanted to minimize the involvement of gods, and just focus on the notion of a created existence. I didn't want the thread to be dominated by debate of the existence of gods, I have seen a lot of threads ruined by that ongoing debate. As I told you, I wanted this to be about what humans know. So you see, I have thought it trough, but I am not exactly sure why you need to know those thought. It is almost as if you are tying to make this into a conversation about me, rather then the topic of the thread.

I'm actually just trying to figure out what you mean. So far, I haven't gotten the sense that your original question is anything more than a bunch of impressive-sounding terms thrown together.

It shows ignorance to ask for evidence to prove an infnite

So then, if I propose an infinite that conflicts with your idea of the infinite, you'll accept it without asking me for evidence?

 

[Willamena]

If I see it from the definition you are using, then existence is still not infinite.

Under the definition of existence referring to the state of existing, existence is a binary property. Either something exists, or it does not. Magnitude (and therefore finite or infinite claims) has no relevance.

What you call "binary" I call absolute: the state of something being is either true or false. But it's also true that something can be stateless.

The Big Picture is far from black and white.

 

[Bereanz]

atleast satan onley killed 2 people in the bible ( with aproval from god) while your god is at 2 million +.

quote]

This is one of many statemnet that demostrates a complete ignorance of Biblical fact.
And when I say Biblical fact, I mean what written dpown in the book in balck and white regardless of what your faith is.

This statemnet has been floating about for a few years now, given that I know it's not your original thought and it's just attached itself to you like the virus that it is, I'm going to let it fly.

But at least you have been honest about who's camp you're happily ensconsed in. Well done.

That Satan came to man's rescue in the garden of Eden to save us from the wicked God yahweh is the lie that is going to leave the Evolution lie to rott in the dust.

This evolution nonsense has had its day in the sun, it's going to be dead and buried, most probably in your life time, but this "Satan is my home boy vibe", that's only grwoing leggs and gainging momentum. Atheists will worship Satan because they will believe him to be the next great stage in Human Evolution.

Back to Human growth statitics, the antideluvian population was at a conservative estimate, 3 billion people, however it is not unrealistic to predict that it could have been as high is 300 billion. However we do know that violence and wickedness was so great, we can assume from that, murder was very prevalent so it's hard to say exactly how many people where killed in the flood.

If you going to blame God for all the human deaths in the bible, you may wish to raise you 2,million figure a little.