Its like many of the what ifs about god. The scenario effects believers and non believers who find themselves in face with god. Like on the movie the rapture, even believers can be resentful about what god didn't help out with.
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Who are you to question God? really...
- Thread starter Lady B
- Start date
Its like many of the what ifs about god. The scenario effects believers and non believers who find themselves in face with god. Like on the movie the rapture, even believers can be resentful about what god didn't help out with.
It's also silly to bad-mouth Darth Vader.
Personally, I see God as (among other things) a personification of a person's ideas of virtue and perfection, so when I speak about someone's God, I realize that I'm actually talking about the character of the person themselves.
IMO, when someone says, for instance, "your God is a bully," what this really means is "you think it's good to be a bully." I think the fact that the person describing God this way doesn't actually believe in this God is mostly irrelevant to the fundamental point: that one person is putting forward a model of morality or virtue, and the response is (effectively) to point out that the model fails because it isn't moral or virtuous at all.
Not if we are debating Jedi-ism.
It's only silly if you aren't concerned with the symbolism of Darth Vader. When did you become a literalist?
Human beings are storytellers. We use stories to explore larger ideas. Discussing the characters and plots of our stories is a way of discussing the larger ideas.
Lady B
noob
I feel I can't continue in this thread untill I have figured out what the staff advisory is for and how I have commited this infraction, so untill then peace
It's especially silly if you're discussing and concerned only with the symbolism of Darth Vader. Symbolism can't hurt anyone.
I'm not sure why you ask if I'm a literalist.
Because it seems like you're arguing from a literalist perspective. If I look at the fable of the Ant and the Grasshopper, can I only derive meaning from the story if I assent to the literal existence of the ant and the grasshopper? If I don't believe that the grasshopper is real, is there no value in me saying that he acted foolishly?
Edit: if there's value in me saying "the grasshopper is foolish", why can't there be value in me saying "God is a bully"?
The literal perspective would be to assent to actual talking ants and grasshoppers. Their "literal existence" is simply their actuality--but that's the pedantist in me talking again.
You can derive meaning from the story whether you assent to their actuality or not. That's beside the point. It's still silly to bad-mouth the talking ant.
It's not the characters who are acting silly.
There is value in it; there's no value in meaning it as if god were a real person (slander).
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The comfort comes from "knowing" that God is in control. This makes the events seem slightly less tragic (I Guess) if it's all part of God's plan. It gives you the comfort that even though these things happen there's a loving being at work. Seems fairly self centred but it can help lessen the tragedy of the event. This can of course back fire i.e. why did God let this happen to me? etc.
The OP doesn't really have anything to do with slander.
The OP is about a) showing respect for God, which imo, is really about showing respect for religious beliefs and b) criticizing the supposed arrogance that is being displayed by those who criticize God.
Please see posts 122, 125, 132, 186, and 189. This criticism has been answered many times within this thread.
In addition to the fact that beliefs exist and have a real effect upon the world, regardless of whether the thing that is believed does exist, thereby making it relevant to debate beliefs that you yourself do not hold, it is fun to debate about things, even things you don't believe are real. I once spent 4 years debating about the minutiae of Lord of the Rings.
FunctionalAtheist
Hammer of Reason
Arrogant? Arrogant is beliving in a fairy tail similar to that of Kris Kringle and setting about planning your life with no regard to facts and evidence. Questioning god is no more that a search for truth. While faith in god is a childish attemnpt to cling to a security blanket of ignorance instead of facing reality.You know I just have to wonder after seeing countless threads, one after another questioning God, what would you have done different? Seriously, you who constantly condemn God's judgments, who are you really? Are you so big you can go against God himself? If you stood in his presence today would you ask him these very questions you post here?
Let me ask you,have you ever been to court? And had a judge before you? if not just imagine... Sure your brave at first and have your attorney beside you, speaking boldly on your behalf and you have all hope he will do what you have paid him to do...but What happens when it is left to the judge? Final day of sentencing, do you scream out what an unfair system we have? Do you mock the judge? Tell him he is nothing? And has no power over you? Or do you my dear friend,humbly go before him with fear and trembling and beg for his mercy..... Have you ever felt that trembling fear? Like, whoa, he could do anything to me and I have no defense really against him?
Have you ever been in front of your president? Or leader? All these things you scream about in facebook or social forums, would you really say in front of a powerful being? Would you say the same things you say in your mothers basement in your underwear,hiding behind a screen and keyboard to an authoritative figure? Do you ever feel underdressed in front of respected persons or maybe that your home isn't clean enough for guests? Have you ever even imagined yourself dumbstruck, in awe? In perfect submission ? Knowing your life depends on what you say right now?
You all amaze me with your fearlessness, your bravery, How easy it is for you to question God, how easy it is for you to say horrid things against his character, to question his judgment, to deem him unfit, to call him narcissistic, to say he is evil to send anyone to hell, to say he designed men to fail and so it is his fault we do so. Who are you speaking this to ? To whom are you so boldly questioning? Who are you so arrogant towards? Against who? Me? Religious entities? Fellow Rf posters? door to door evangelists? Maybe even world wide web users? so brave you are....
I will ask you, what gives you this boldness? Who is behind you now? Who has your back? Fellow atheists? agnostics? Science? your meditations? What are you trusting in really? I will tell you, your trusting in men, your trusting in created minds and not the very creator! the one you will one day stand before and your tongue will not even wag, your voice will be gone, you who have made your own God or seen yourselves as your own God, and hey, as Gods tell me what did you create? while you have been in control of your own destiny, what have you really found? how have you furthered your own species? I tell you one day you will see all your knowledge, your wisdom and your imaginings as dust. DUST ! Nothing... All your science and your ideas and your questions and your denials are nothing, you will be speechless and you will have no representative beside you, none will speak for you, or give your qualifications, none will submit your great philosophical resume..You will answer to one God, one Holy God , one creator, one judge, He will ask of you...
" what did you do with this life I gave you?"
don't even think what you will say, you will get no say, you will get no argument, there is no debate my friend....
I have heard many rebuttals already, trust me what you can say is not new to me, nor to God.Here they are....If you are wrong, so what..You were deceived...If You are wrong well it is not your fault, God wasn't clear.....If You are wrong well so how can God punish what he designed from the beginning? so what? You die and cease to exist, from dust you came to dust you go.there is nothing beyond so why should you care..you Will wish it so, but it is not the truth, death is not your end, you will face that Holy God whether you choose in this life to acknowledge him or not, you will face him and you will bow before him and you will not speak a word........
Do I wish this for you? Do I wish one day you will see what we have told you and you will be sorry and we will gloat? and say "neener neener,I told ya so"? No my friend I do not wish the wrath of God on anyone, I beg you to show respect, I beg you to question rightously, I beg you to stop this slander and seek your answers meekly, as If you need answers and not as you do now, allready knowing all. I wish you would stop questioning God as if he is your mailman, as if he is your buddy who let you down as if he was the waitress who got your order wrong....
Think about it my friend, who are you exactly? How is it that you can be so arrogant? So self worthy to say this God of Abraham is so unfair, so unjust, so evil minded? I fear for your attempt at bravery within your peers, stand alone and put yourself standing before this God you deny you know, Yes you know him, you deceive yourself well enough to say you don't know him, but He has written himself on every heart, most of you have studied his word to use it against his own...You know him....
Agnostic75
Well-Known Member
Lady B said:
Instead of that, since your opening post involves so many different issues, I think that it would be nice if you started a new thread and discussed just one issue, and if you want to discuss another issue, start another thread.
You are wasting your time discussing what you believe is some people's arrogance. There are arrogant people in any group.
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Lady B
noob
HMMMmm, Good Idea and I will do that since so many things have been brought out here ,Thanks.
With slander and misrepresentation of the beast.
I don't see those posts being about what I was talking about.
I'm still a big fan of Abraham.
You're the only one who has mentioned slander. I think that is missing the point of the OP. It's not about whether what is being said is true or not (which is what slander is about). It is about whether what is being said is respectful or not, or indicates arrogance or not.
You said it was silly to debate things you don't believe exist. Why do you think it silly?
Re-read the OP and Post #4.
No, I said it's silly to bad-mouth things that you don't believe exist. The theist has a vested interest in god's existence, right? Then along comes the athiest, who asks, "Why would God murder all those people?" or "Why does God hate us so that he would do this thing?" (LIke why would God do this horrible thing to test Abraham, blah blah, meaning that God must be a horrible person.)
Now yes, it's possible that the atheist is attempting to discuss God as a character in a fictional context and questioning the motive in terms of storyline, but more often--and more likely--that's not the case at all. More often the atheist is posing. They are presenting the question as if they believe, as if God is real because the theist believes it, and as if they want to understand. (All of which are questionable, consdering they sometimes get an answer and then go ask the question again of someone else.)
Those are the people to whom I see this thread being addressed, the ones who treat God as if he was real in order to pose him in an ethical or moral dilemma that serves no other real purpose than to point out that God is a jerk. It is silly and, yes, slanderous, to pose your question as if you wonder why God is such a jerk for testing Abraham. That's the person who is being too literal.
Atheists and maltheists may be the target (no doubt) but the issue is just as valid a concern for believers.