Lady B
noob
Well that's two, maybe a few more and you can get my badge taken away, I never thought I deserved it anyway if that helps
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Who are you to question God? really...
- Thread starter Lady B
- Start date
Well that's two, maybe a few more and you can get my badge taken away, I never thought I deserved it anyway if that helps
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
yawn. can't quite figure this thread out.............
Copernicus
Industrial Strength Linguist
I caught that same remark when you made it earlier. It reminded me of the time long ago when I read Bertrand Russell's Why I am Not a Christian. That's something of a classic for budding atheists.
It was a collection of his essays arguing against belief in God. He liked to make the point that all Christians had to have at some deeply buried level of their minds a belief that God did not exist. I think that he was right about that, and I also think you are right to think that all atheists have a suppressed theist inside them. That is the nature of human cognition. Fundamentally, we think on many different levels. For every dominant belief, there is an opposite, but unequal, belief being suppressed. We end up believing what we do as much by suppressing opposing beliefs as by building up those beliefs that support or facilitate the dominant belief.InsurgoInsurgiInsurrect
Member
Just because many believe in something does not mean it is true.
There are a few errors here... Many believe... what is many? Most? "No god" is like the third worldwide most popular belief system thus does that mean they are thus many and you should thus respect their beliefs?
Maybe you meant most? Well at one point most people thought a lot of things that were probably rational for their time but now seem silly.
I think you are off on such a silly tangent right now. Most atheists faced with god assuming there is one would accept the god and become theists in whatever god they found but there is no evidence that any given god is the real god. Is it Yhwh? Allah? Isis? Do you just think whatever people believe if they believe in a god then it is the god you believe in so therefore god?
I have heard other people cite abraham as if there is some factual proven case of humans speaking to god and therefore they win... this is nonsense... This new god everyone is talking about is exactly that... its a new belief system and a new face for an old idea. We have no evidence that any god exists despite what we were raised to believe or what we hope might be true.
Going on what we know we can assume there is no god.
Imagine our surprise if there is a god. You seem to think we will be silent and humble before such a figure but some of us might have real questions about Sandy Hook, New Orleans, Columbine, The Iraq war, The Crusades and witches... (Honestly I could go on and on... recently I have been studying Minnesota and how the native americans were treated and how perhaps the common people were more cruel than the soldiers etc... but that is neither here nor there)
To your surprise some people would have the gumption to question authority if such an authority was ever found and there is no reason to believe for 'many' of us that such an authority exists.
Many kids believe in Santa and when they come face to face some might just humbly and quietly ask for a present while others will pee on his lap and others yank his beard off.
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Yes, that is usually the case. When one calls God an egotistical sadist, that is in and of itself a very strong indication that he simply does not believe in God's existence nearly enough to bother to hate him.
The argument that some depictions of God show him as unworthy of respect, much less worship, is a legitimate one. I have made it on occasion.
It does not at all imply that one believes such a God to actually exist. In fact, it is normally an argument against either the existence of God or the accuracy or consistency of some specific conception of same.
A classic example is the theological refutation of Pascal's Wager, which uses just such an argument.
---------------
On another note, I was wondering. If you truly believe that deep down we Atheists are covert believers, then what reason would we have to deny it?
More specifically, can you conceive of any reasons that wouldn't make your OP somewhat counter-productive? Because try as I might, I can't think of any.
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Ok granted, Thankyou for clearing that up, I apoligise for the easter bunny remark, my real point in using it is that why do they care so much if they could care less, anyways I shouldn't have used it, my mistake...
Favlun, among others, explained that very well. But I will try to present a more specific point.
We care about belief in God because it is often enough abused and misused.
It is used, sincerely or otherwise, by politicians at varied moral and mental situations to gain projection and to justify measures that would otherwise be recognized by their true value (or lack of same).
It is used by various people for self-justification and casual disregard of other people's rights and feelings as well as an excuse to avoid the responsibility for such attitudes.
It is used by priests and even laypeople of various persuations to feed feelings of self-importance that corrupt them to various degrees, often enough with tragic results.
And, let it not go unremarked, it sometimes leads to odd situations where we are effectively accused of being either deluded fools, hypocritical liars, or maybe just plain unbalanced people who "truly believe" even as we assure others that we do not. Worse still, those insults are presented with an unconvincing yet apparently sincere veneer that disguises them as some sort of display of respect and consideration. That is just plain disgusting and shouldn't be tolerated by anyone at all.
LuisDantas' response is more complete than what I offer (and better), but for another type of approach:
What if I say Batman is way cooler than Superman, and furthermore Superman is really a wuss because unlike Batman he's pretty much invincible, so nothing he does requires courage?
I've said something hateful about Superman, and praised Batman. How does this mean anything about either? Or, to put it differently, whom am I insulting? Whom am I praising? Both are pieces of fiction, & I'm talking about characters.
When people who don't believe in God talk about descriptions of God given in some religious text, or some collection of religious texts, their descriptions describe characters like mine did Superman & Batman.
I can even say that the Sherlock Holmes in the BBC's Sherlock is better than that of the same Sherlock Holmes in a different series, or a movie, or even Conan Doyle's works. But again I'm only talking about a character. If I say that a villain in a book or movie is evil, or is "an egotistical sadist", whom am I insulting?
For believers, God is not a character. But for those who do not believe, saying God is "an egotistical sadist" is akin to saying Sauron or Morgoth are.
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YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
I am not the slightest bit surprised that you hold the belief that "anyone does not believe in a deity". Though strange, I can also see how that could cause a certain degree of awkwardness and shock when encountering resistance to those deep-seated beliefs. With more than a certain amount of amusement I can't help but ask, "Do you understand that this sense of audacity works both ways?"
You might also want to ask yourself why, exactly, "god" needs to demand respect. Further to this, "Why would a real "god" need to demand anything?"
McBell
Unbound
Now take it to the next step.
Imagine now that there are people trying to get laws passed for no other reason than because they believe they are doing the Easter Bunny's will.
They want schools to lead prayers to the Easter Bunny.
they interfere with research projects because they believe the Easter Bunny would not like them.
they are against euthanasia simply because they think letting someone die is playing Easter Bunny while ignoring the fact that keeping that same someone alive with machines is the part that is actually playing Easter Bunny.
they want the Easter Bunny story taught in science classes.
the list goes on and on...
When/ if I call God evil or something similar I'm not trying to offend anyone. I'm trying to make a factual statement about such a being based on the information given about him. I'd also like to reflect apophenias point that this is a
:clap. but alas, I have no more frubals to give
Good grief ...
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
you trying to say I am old?
How exactly am I not respecting you exactly? By stating that your willingful denying God,and consider yourself just to call my God an evil monster? ok so be it.I think I have that right as you have the right to believe as you do, you believe I am willingly believing a lie created by men, I believe your willingly denying what He has written on your heart from creation.
Well, you might not realize it, but comments like this can come off as arrogant and condescending. When you say "I think everyone knows god exists, but some deny it" or "You're willfully denying God", you might get more of an attitude in response because of the attitude displayed in those comments.
I hope not, considering those who believe in those things are children, and I don't see the point in debating children.
As I said before, we care about your beliefs because they dominate our society and influence government as well as daily life. I'm still wondering what all you consider disrespect towards your god. Does that include criticizing him for what we consider his faults? Or does it only include calling him names?
You know I just have to wonder after seeing countless threads, one after another questioning God, what would you have done different? Seriously, you who constantly condemn God's judgments, who are you really? Are you so big you can go against God himself? If you stood in his presence today would you ask him these very questions you post here?
Let me ask you,have you ever been to court? And had a judge before you? if not just imagine... Sure your brave at first and have your attorney beside you, speaking boldly on your behalf and you have all hope he will do what you have paid him to do...but What happens when it is left to the judge? Final day of sentencing, do you scream out what an unfair system we have? Do you mock the judge? Tell him he is nothing? And has no power over you? Or do you my dear friend,humbly go before him with fear and trembling and beg for his mercy..... Have you ever felt that trembling fear? Like, whoa, he could do anything to me and I have no defense really against him?
Have you ever been in front of your president? Or leader? All these things you scream about in facebook or social forums, would you really say in front of a powerful being? Would you say the same things you say in your mothers basement in your underwear,hiding behind a screen and keyboard to an authoritative figure? Do you ever feel underdressed in front of respected persons or maybe that your home isn't clean enough for guests? Have you ever even imagined yourself dumbstruck, in awe? In perfect submission ? Knowing your life depends on what you say right now?
You all amaze me with your fearlessness, your bravery, How easy it is for you to question God, how easy it is for you to say horrid things against his character, to question his judgment, to deem him unfit, to call him narcissistic, to say he is evil to send anyone to hell, to say he designed men to fail and so it is his fault we do so. Who are you speaking this to ? To whom are you so boldly questioning? Who are you so arrogant towards? Against who? Me? Religious entities? Fellow Rf posters? door to door evangelists? Maybe even world wide web users? so brave you are....
I will ask you, what gives you this boldness? Who is behind you now? Who has your back? Fellow atheists? agnostics? Science? your meditations? What are you trusting in really? I will tell you, your trusting in men, your trusting in created minds and not the very creator! the one you will one day stand before and your tongue will not even wag, your voice will be gone, you who have made your own God or seen yourselves as your own God, and hey, as Gods tell me what did you create? while you have been in control of your own destiny, what have you really found? how have you furthered your own species? I tell you one day you will see all your knowledge, your wisdom and your imaginings as dust. DUST ! Nothing... All your science and your ideas and your questions and your denials are nothing, you will be speechless and you will have no representative beside you, none will speak for you, or give your qualifications, none will submit your great philosophical resume..You will answer to one God, one Holy God , one creator, one judge, He will ask of you...
" what did you do with this life I gave you?"
don't even think what you will say, you will get no say, you will get no argument, there is no debate my friend....
I have heard many rebuttals already, trust me what you can say is not new to me, nor to God.Here they are....If you are wrong, so what..You were deceived...If You are wrong well it is not your fault, God wasn't clear.....If You are wrong well so how can God punish what he designed from the beginning? so what? You die and cease to exist, from dust you came to dust you go.there is nothing beyond so why should you care..you Will wish it so, but it is not the truth, death is not your end, you will face that Holy God whether you choose in this life to acknowledge him or not, you will face him and you will bow before him and you will not speak a word........
Do I wish this for you? Do I wish one day you will see what we have told you and you will be sorry and we will gloat? and say "neener neener,I told ya so"? No my friend I do not wish the wrath of God on anyone, I beg you to show respect, I beg you to question rightously, I beg you to stop this slander and seek your answers meekly, as If you need answers and not as you do now, allready knowing all. I wish you would stop questioning God as if he is your mailman, as if he is your buddy who let you down as if he was the waitress who got your order wrong....
Think about it my friend, who are you exactly? How is it that you can be so arrogant? So self worthy to say this God of Abraham is so unfair, so unjust, so evil minded? I fear for your attempt at bravery within your peers, stand alone and put yourself standing before this God you deny you know, Yes you know him, you deceive yourself well enough to say you don't know him, but He has written himself on every heart, most of you have studied his word to use it against his own...You know him....
Well that's two, maybe a few more and you can get my badge taken away, I never thought I deserved it anyway if that helps
It's no wonder why you think this way, then. :hug:
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
Because that's a cruel thing to say to someone who has just lost a loved one. An atheist would be no different from a religious person at a time like that. They would try to console the person. They just wouldn't necessarily say anything about an afterlife.
As I said in my last post, your comments have this very arrogant and condescending attitude to them, even though I am sure you don't mean it. You say "All know there is a god", which to those of us who don't believe in a god comes off as treating us as stupid.
But your second part gets to the heart of the point of the thread here. You believe your god took those babies. To some of us that is the action of an evil person. Only an evil, heartless person would kill children or allow them to be killed when he had the power to stop them. I understand you don't like that characterization of your god, but there's really no other good way to say it.
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Father Heathen
Veteran Member
Probably for the same reasons you wouldn't tell those parents "hey, BTW: if your kids aren't part of 'the elect', they're being tormented in Hell now." Isn't that something that you believe?
First off, since the Sandy Point shooting, I've been seeing plenty of appeals in the atheist community for people to help the families (for instance: Atheists Giving Aid – Support Sandy Hook Elementary | We Are Atheism). Maybe the reason you haven't noticed this is because only the religious groups have decided to make a show of what they're doing there.
But what comfort do you find in God in a case like this? I really can't understand it.
Here's how I approach something like this: I see it as a tragedy and something that shouldn't have happened. I see it as motivation to prevent similar things from happening in future. If I added God into the mix, it would turn all this on its head: if it's part of the divine plan of a loving God, then I couldn't see it as a tragedy. I would have to see it as futile to prevent similar events in future, because as a limited human being, I could never hope to thwart the will of God.
So how do you take comfort in God? Exactly what is there to take comfort in?
Okay, that is helpful to know. Is it fair to say that you are mainly offended by calling God names?
Your OP indicates, though, not just a matter of disrespect, but asks the question of "who do we think we are to question God". So, while you seem to be okay with disbelief and debate, does not disbelief and debate fall under "questioning"? Do you still think that such questioning is still an issue? Do you still find people arrogant for not holding the same beliefs as you do about God?
The OP is about slandering god. It's easy to slander something one doesn't believe in. It's also pretty silly to do so (with pretty obvious motivation).