Who are you to question God? really...

[Lady B]

Well, because people actually believe it. And that belief has real world consequences. There are still countries on earth where homosexuality is criminalized because of what the dominant religious belief says God thinks about it. There are places in the world where so much as drawing a picture of a particular religious prophet is likely to get you incarcerated. Even in the US, the dominant forces opposing birth control, gay marriage and the teaching of evolution come from organizations which have at their heart the belief that God specifically opposes those things.

It's a belief that not only informs such actions, but also personal opinions towards each other. I've lost friends in the past because they became Christians and refused to hang out with me when I didn't convert. I've spoken to people I've known and loved for many years and have them condemn me to hell for being an atheist. I've seen gay friends disowned by their religious families. And here, on this forum, I've had you tell me and all the other atheists on this forum that, actually, "we do know God exists", and we're just "willfully ignorant" to it.

These beliefs matter, so it's more important than any other belief to question and inquire and try to ascertain the truth of.

I grant you that, I do know many issues surrounding religion, reflected from it and used by it, I have debated these issues, well some....and I have even conceded that perhaps we should try to make laws for the whole and not the church. These issues are valid and they should be discussed between us, I have no problem in that,But because a people offend you, should you offend their God?

 

[Lady B]

A quick show of hands, who in this thread "hates" god?

some words reflect hatred do they not? could I assume when one calls God an egotistical sadist, they are not hating God?

 

[apophenia]

Ok, But are politics the reason to call God a lil punk? Because some religious people vote by their morals dictated by their beliefs then our God must pay the price? I know there are deepset issues against Christians or religious zealots, But that can't be why people hate a God, could it?

You are missing the point by a country mile, and the way you misunderstand it is illuminating.

They are not calling god anything ! They don't believe in god, so how could they believe they are insulting something which they do not believe exists ?

So asking why people hate god is a hopelessly confused question. The criticism is of the actions of those who do believe, and the effects this has on others.

I cannot hate something I don't believe in, OK ? I can however object to the behaviour of other people, especially those who expect me to support their beliefs. I do not expect you to support my world view, so why do you think I should support yours, especially if you want your unprovable beliefs reflected in laws to which I am bound ?

Do you get it now ?

 

[apophenia]

some words reflect hatred do they not? could I assume when one calls God an egotistical sadist, they are not hating God?

People who say that are making a philosophical point, not asserting a belief in god. They are saying "If this god you claim actually existed, then ..."

Get it ?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I grant you that, I do know many issues surrounding religion, reflected from it and used by it, I have debated these issues, well some....and I have even conceded that perhaps we should try to make laws for the whole and not the church. These issues are valid and they should be discussed between us, I have no problem in that,But because a people offend you, should you offend their God?

How can I offend something I don't believe exists? I'm not saying "your God is a dumb-face" and sticking my tongue out at them. Earlier, I described your God as foolish, because of how you described them and how it made them seem to make absolutely no sense whatsoever: You said they didn't want respect, but they demanded it, and that they didn't need respect, but that we should give it to them anyway. If you were talking about any human being (or any fictional or non-fictional character), it's easy to see that to hold such a position is absurd, and only a fool would do so. That's not a criticism, or an insult, of your God - it's a conclusion that the God you describe makes no sense in the real world.

If I told you I believed in fairies, and that fairies hate the sound of people singing, but constantly sprinkle dust on people to make them sing, because they demand that people sing to them, would you say that makes sense - or that it makes the fairies sound foolish?

If anyone here has upset you, I'm sorry for that, but you shouldn't get upset on behalf of a being that most people in this discussion regard as not existing. Try to separate your emotions and look at it from an place of objectivity and rationality, and tell me if it's reasonable to get upset over a bunch of people using unkind adjectives to describe something that they don't believe exists - and in some of their cases they believe is contemptible if they do exist. They have just as much a right to believe that, were God to exist, they would be deserving of ire as you have a right to believe that God is deserving of praise. It's a two-way street.

 

[Lady B]

You are missing the point by a country mile, and the way you misunderstand it is illuminating.

They are not calling god anything ! They don't believe in god, so how could they believe they are insulting something which they do not believe exists ?

So asking why people hate god is a hopelessly confused question. The criticism is of the actions of those who do believe, and the effects this has on others.

I cannot hate something I don't believe in, OK ? I can however object to the behaviour of other people, especially those who expect me to support their beliefs. I do not expect you to support my world view, so why do you think I should support yours, especially if you want your unprovable beliefs reflected in laws to which I am bound ?

Do you get it now ?

It is not about me getting it, It is about you getting it too,If I or anyone offends you, then fine, feel free to call me out, I am not a God, I am not anyone to demand respect and certainly not fear, You do not need to refrain In Awe of me or any persons.You can stop using lack of understanding tactics to prove that you are not understanding me or my post. I am understanding you, I am just not agreeing in your arguments that a people who is offensive to serious issues gives anyone a right to attack a deity That others do hold in utmost esteem.

So ok you say you don't believe in him so It is not insulting to insult him? maybe this makes sense and Ok If that is true, why waste the insult? is it not meaningless to you to insult something you don't believe? It means something to others only right? so you must have a motive to demeen 'nothing' in someones eyes, what is that motive?

 

[Ingledsva]

The only reason you would not walk up to your god is because you fear him. We do not. He is a little punk that allows children to die. And if it calls for me being smitten so be it. I have quite a few questions for this entity you call God if he exists.

God is most definitely cruel and unusual.
Beyond that there is no reason to believe he even exists... so, all of that rant was really redundant.

This

I know you don't like such - but your bible actually says YHVH personally kills children for "supposed" adult misconduct.

For instance - He kills the firstborn of the Egyptians - And I might add this is done with forethought and evil intent! The bible says that YHVH says he will HARDEN Pharaoh's heart so he won't let them go - and then he kills the INNOCENT when Pharaoh (who can't let them go because of YHVH) doesn't let them go!!!

Another instance is King David's infant.

 

[Lady B]

People who say that are making a philosophical point, not asserting a belief in god. They are saying "If this god you claim actually existed, then ..."

Get it ?

If that were how they were saying it, This thread would not be here.

 

[Falvlun]

So ok you say you don't believe in him so It is not insulting to insult him? maybe this makes sense and Ok If that is true, why waste the insult? is it not meaningless to you to insult something you don't believe? It means something to others only right? so you must have a motive to demeen 'nothing' in someones eyes, what is that motive?

Sometimes sarcasm, mockery, and shock-and-awe are useful debate tactics. Sometimes they are just childish rants.

Why do you care so much about what we believe if you don't believe it?

 

[McBell]

If that were how they were saying it, This thread would not be here.

No, this thread is here because YOU have taken offense towards some things some people say about your god and you demanded that everyone respect your god.


One does wonder why your god, if he was as offended as you, did not do or say anything himself?

 

[Lady B]

Sometimes sarcasm, mockery, and shock-and-awe are useful debate tactics. Sometimes they are just childish rants.

Why do you care so much about what we believe if you don't believe it?

Can you explain to me how these are ever useful in debate?

 

[F0uad]

Lady B i think the respect for your religion can only be found in the places where they respect religion and i don't think you will find it where you live now.

 

[Falvlun]

If that were how they were saying it, This thread would not be here.

As mentioned a whole lotta times in this thread, that is exactly what it is meant. We are debating your beliefs about God. You say God is xyz. We come back and say then that sort of God is not very nice. The "If God is xyz" part of the "then he is not very nice" is implied.

Like I said, I think that if God exists, and s/he/it truly is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent, I highly doubt he is anything like the God your beliefs describe. I highly doubt that he cares one iota that there are people who don't believe in him, and I certainly don't think that he'd fault people for using their God-given reason, compassion, and moral compass. He'd be bigger, grander, greater than the rather petty God your beliefs describe. Now how's that for respect?

 

[McBell]

Lady B i think the respect for your religion can only be found in the places where they respect religion and i don't think you will find it where you live now.

I suspect that people know they can easily get her goat and chase after every chance they get so they can get a rise out of.

it is a form of control actually.
She is letting those who would get her goat control her.

 

[apophenia]

Lady B i think the respect for your religion can only be found in the places where they respect religion and i don't think you will find it where you live now.

But those places are not that way because the people who live there are fundamentally different in some way. 'Those places' are that way because it is effectively suicide to not believe. And it is not 'god' who punishes the non-believers.

In fact, the believers don't dare to leave it in the hands of 'god', but feel compelled to carry out the punishments themselves. If they truly believed in god, they would have no concern about atheists and idolators etc, because they would know that god would eventually give the punishment. But apparently they don't trust their 'god' to do that !

 

[McBell]

Can you explain to me how these are ever useful in debate?

If you were able to take you OP and do as I suggested, changing all references to god and making them to the Tooth fairy instead, you would understand that as ridiculous as your OP would sound to you if it were about the Tooth Fairy instead of god, that is how ridiculous it sounds to those who do not believe in god.

 

[F0uad]

I suspect that people know they can easily get her goat and chase after every chance they get so they can get a rise out of.

it is a form of control actually.
She is letting those who would get her goat control her.

Well i cant blame her i know some people won't agree but i think Christianity and some other religions ''included'' mine are daily attacked in some countries in the public news channels, comedians let me rephrase they are ''attacked, insulted and mocked'' daily in the public life.

I don't think she is really ''mad'' but it can get annoying and disgusting to hear people with a certain different idea mocking her identity again and again.

 

[F0uad]

But those places are not that way because the people who live there are fundamentally different in some way. 'Those places' are that way because it is effectively suicide to not believe. And it is not 'god' who punishes the non-believers.

Thats entirely false.

 

[McBell]

But those places are not that way because the people who live there are fundamentally different in some way. 'Those places' are that way because it is effectively suicide to not believe. And it is not 'god' who punishes the non-believers.

It is rather interesting how an alleged all powerful being does absolutely nothing himself to enforce his rules, but allows, and according to some even demands, that mere mortal humans do it for him.

 

[Falvlun]

Can you explain to me how these are ever useful in debate?

Sarcasm and mockery are useful to show the ridiculousness of a belief. They are usually not useful for those who have already made up their minds, but they are useful for those who may be on the fence. An example of such would be the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Shock-and-awe can work similarly. When you always couch things in pretty terms, sometimes the full force of what you are saying is lost. For example, arguing that God unjustly caused the death of children doesn't quite have the punch of "God murdered children" even though both are saying the same thing. This one is trickier, imo, and more prone to trollish, childish ranting.