Who caused Satan or the devil rebel

[URAVIP2ME]

Thinking that Lucifer is the devil is a misconception based on traditional thinking.Lucifer comes from the Latin word Lucifero which means "light bearer." It comes from the original Hebrew word "Hel el." This means "shining one." This is a title given to the Babylonian dynasty led by King Nebuchadnezzar.Where it speaks of "Lucifer", this shining one,in the book of Isaiah,it speaks of judgment against the city of Babylon.It also refers to "Lucifer" as a man.Satan is not a man,he is a spirit.It also says that he will be led down to the grave.We know from the book of revelation that satan the devil is reserved for the eternal lake of fire.So this could not be referring to satan the devil.

Here is the passage that mentions "Lucifer."

Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

It is usually translated to "morning star."

If we go down just a few scriptures it says this about Lucifer.

Isaiah 14:16 Those who see you stare at you,
they ponder your fate:
“Is this the man who shook the earth
and made kingdoms tremble,

If we go just one scripture before it says this.

Isaiah 14:15 But you are brought down to the realm of the dead,
to the depths of the pit.

So here we clearly see from reading and studying that Lucifer, or morning star, is actually referring to the Babylonian dynasty.This can also be confirmed by reading the book of Daniel ch.4.When Daniel is explaining to King Nebuchadnezzar everything that is told to him goes hand and hand with what is spoken of in Isaiah 14.Compare Isaiah 14:12 with Daniel 4:15.It speaks of Lucifer being cut down to the ground.It is referring to King Nebuchadnezzar.Daniel explains that the tree that has been cut down to a stump represents his kingdom being cut down but he would regain it after 7 years.The stump regrows.Kingdom arises again.

Another thing,Satan the devil has been called that since man has been on earth.Satan means adversary.Devil means slanderer,liar.These are titles and not names.He was called this before and after he and the other demons were cast down to earth.

Jude 1:9 New International Version (NIV)
9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”

Revelation 12:9 The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Satan the devil has been called that since the OT.He was cast down in the book of Revelation.This was well after Jesus.

Yes, Satan the devil has been called that since the old Hebrew Scriptures as found him titled at Job 1:6-8,12; Job 2:4

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I could list dozens. Many are inconsequential and a few are based in misunderstanding but there still are several left that are stark contradictions.








ISA 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

DEU 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Monk Of Reason, do you have another stark contradiction in mind?

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Monk Of Reason, do you have another stark contradiction in mind?

I can go and list more but I would like to see a response to this one first. And in all reality it wouldn't matter if I couldn't find more. A single contradiction proves that the bible, by necessity, is not perfect. And if it isn't perfect....well that removes a lot of the weight that some of its more evangelical followers have thrown it with.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I can go and list more but I would like to see a response to this one first. And in all reality it wouldn't matter if I couldn't find more. A single contradiction proves that the bible, by necessity, is not perfect. And if it isn't perfect....well that removes a lot of the weight that some of its more evangelical followers have thrown it with.

Thank you for your ^above ^ thoughts. You are Not alone in your thinking. For example: people have picked apart Matthew 5:48 because it says in that verse you must be perfect as God is perfect. They fail to take into consideration what Jesus was talking about starting at verse 44 to verse 47 about loving one's enemies. Jesus concludes what he says about loving one's enemies in verse 48 to be perfect as God is perfect in completeness in loving. God lets the sun shine and rain fall for all. God is Not partial. So we are to be perfect or complete in loving our enemies. We are Not to be imperfect as to be lacking in godly love.
Like God, we should also be impartial and invite everyone to repent so as Not to perish - be destroyed - 2nd Peter 3:9

I think because of the context of what Jesus was discussing at Matthew 5 vs 44 to 48 there is No contradiction, but that people have Not taken into consideration what Jesus was addressing at those particular verses starting at 44 concluding at verse 48.

Please take note of 2nd Timothy 3:17 where it connects perfect ( being completely equipped ) with the doing of good works.
Doing every good work is perfectly or completely acceptable to God.

A wedding ring might Not be measured as absolutely perfect, but people accept that a wedding ring is completely or perfectly acceptable to use at a marriage ceremony. So, Bible teachings and standards equip us for everlasting life either in heaven for some, or for living forever on earth for the majority of mankind starting with Jesus' coming 1000-year kingdom or governmental rule over earth.
- Psalm 37 vs 11,29.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Thank you for your ^above ^ thoughts. You are Not alone in your thinking. For example: people have picked apart Matthew 5:48 because it says in that verse you must be perfect as God is perfect. They fail to take into consideration what Jesus was talking about starting at verse 44 to verse 47 about loving one's enemies. Jesus concludes what he says about loving one's enemies in verse 48 to be perfect as God is perfect in completeness in loving. God lets the sun shine and rain fall for all. God is Not partial. So we are to be perfect or complete in loving our enemies. We are Not to be imperfect as to be lacking in godly love.
Like God, we should also be impartial and invite everyone to repent so as Not to perish - be destroyed - 2nd Peter 3:9

I think because of the context of what Jesus was discussing at Matthew 5 vs 44 to 48 there is No contradiction, but that people have Not taken into consideration what Jesus was addressing at those particular verses starting at 44 concluding at verse 48.

Please take note of 2nd Timothy 3:17 where it connects perfect ( being completely equipped ) with the doing of good works.
Doing every good work is perfectly or completely acceptable to God.

A wedding ring might Not be measured as absolutely perfect, but people accept that a wedding ring is completely or perfectly acceptable to use at a marriage ceremony. So, Bible teachings and standards equip us for everlasting life either in heaven for some, or for living forever on earth for the majority of mankind starting with Jesus' coming 1000-year kingdom or governmental rule over earth.
- Psalm 37 vs 11,29.

Do you have a response to my original contradiction that I posted. I don't want to argue about contradictions that you already know the rationalization of. Though I will fully admit that if you go online and search for "contradictions in the bible" 9 out of 10 tend to be a bit bogus if one has any knowledge of the interpretations of the bible and the contexts of the bible. But there still are plenty that hold water such as the one I mentioned. I'm not here to rip you from your faith but I am adamant about my point.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Monk of Reason, No one is asking, or even implying, that you or anyone ignore parts of the Bible. By Jesus' teachings we can discern that Jesus did Not ignore the Hebrew parts. However, we do need to consider the time setting and context. Remember the Bible is Not written ABC as a dictionary is. So, we need to research the Bible by subject or topic arrangement. Because the majority of the Bible has cross-reference verses or passages then we can see the internal harmony among its many writers.
"perfect" in Scripture often carries the meaning of being complete. Such as we might say a wedding ring is perfect for a marriage ceremony. We know the measurements might not be exactly ' perfect ', but the wedding ring is completely proper for a wedding ceremony.
We do Not find the word perfect in the Greek language found in the words of 2nd Timothy 3:16,17 where it says that All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight (such as in correcting ), for disciplining in righteousness, so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped ( or fitted out ) for every good work. So, as a wedding ring is ' fitted out ', then we too can be ' fit ', so to speak, in ways that benefit us now and into an everlasting future such as mentioned at Psalm 37:11,29

Monk of Reason, does the ^above^ have to do with your original, or please refresh my mind, thanks.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I like to think of it as god being a terrible tyrannical ruler who stripped the will of his fellows and took the throne. Then Satan somehow regained his free will and saw what was really going on and managed to free about 1/3 of his brethren and waged a war against god.
Then god said "screw it" and started making new beings called "man" to be his new slaves but Satan intervened and gave them free will as well. And now god sends all kinds of messages to try and trick people into being his slaves but doesn't actually have the ability to control us any longer. And satan is trying to get us to see the truth behind the evil tyrannical god.
I mean I think that would be a better plot to a movie than just "evil satan and just god"

According to Scripture, at first there was No satanic rebellion in Eden.
Satan was the covering cherub mentioned at Ezekiel 28:13 - 17

Satan used his appointed position to have undo importance, thus wanted to control mankind (us) to worship him instead of his God.
Who is the tyrant at Job chapters 1 and 2 ?__________
Satan Not only challenges the man Job, but by way of extension challenges all of us.
By Satan saying ' a ' man - Job 2:4,5 - includes all of us. That under adverse conditions such as verse 5 says to ' touch our flesh ' ( loose physical health ) and we would Not serve God.
In other words, apply enough pressure to us and sooner or later we would Not serve God.
Satan challenged God's sovereignty over both the angels and over humans.
The root or start of Satan's challenge was his desire to be worshiped by us. That desire was at the root or base of his lying words and actions. If Satan's false words were true, then Adam and Eve would still be alive on earth today.
Satan worked hard on Adam and Eve to become disloyal to divine law or sovereignty by claiming he was telling the truth and it was God who lied and they would Not die. That first lie is recorded at Genesis 3:4
By Satan's disobedience that called into question whether God's right to govern and guide mankind is a righteous way.
Satan is calling into question the love and loyalty of all intelligent creation.
As revealed in the case of faithful Job, both Job and Jesus, under adverse conditions, proved Satan is a liar that all would turn away from God.

It was free-willed Adam who severed or cut us free from God. By choosing to break God's Law then Adam was taking the Law out of God's hands, so to speak, and placing the Law into man's hands. Adam is the one who set up " People Rule " as superior to " God Rule " as the best way of governing. History has proven Ecclesiastes 8:9 to be true that man (Not God) has dominated man to man's hurt and injury. We will Not see divine involvement into mankind's affairs until the soon coming ' time of separation ' of Matthew 25:31,32.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

According to Scripture, at first there was No satanic rebellion in Eden.
Satan was the covering cherub mentioned at Ezekiel 28:13 - 17

Satan used his appointed position to have undo importance, thus wanted to control mankind (us) to worship him instead of his God.
Who is the tyrant at Job chapters 1 and 2 ?__________
Satan Not only challenges the man Job, but by way of extension challenges all of us.
By Satan saying ' a ' man - Job 2:4,5 - includes all of us. That under adverse conditions such as verse 5 says to ' touch our flesh ' ( loose physical health ) and we would Not serve God.
In other words, apply enough pressure to us and sooner or later we would Not serve God.
Satan challenged God's sovereignty over both the angels and over humans.
The root or start of Satan's challenge was his desire to be worshiped by us. That desire was at the root or base of his lying words and actions. If Satan's false words were true, then Adam and Eve would still be alive on earth today.
Satan worked hard on Adam and Eve to become disloyal to divine law or sovereignty by claiming he was telling the truth and it was God who lied and they would Not die. That first lie is recorded at Genesis 3:4
By Satan's disobedience that called into question whether God's right to govern and guide mankind is a righteous way.
Satan is calling into question the love and loyalty of all intelligent creation.
As revealed in the case of faithful Job, both Job and Jesus, under adverse conditions, proved Satan is a liar that all would turn away from God.

It was free-willed Adam who severed or cut us free from God. By choosing to break God's Law then Adam was taking the Law out of God's hands, so to speak, and placing the Law into man's hands. Adam is the one who set up " People Rule " as superior to " God Rule " as the best way of governing. History has proven Ecclesiastes 8:9 to be true that man (Not God) has dominated man to man's hurt and injury. We will Not see divine involvement into mankind's affairs until the soon coming ' time of separation ' of Matthew 25:31,32.

That is the official report anyway. Don't you know they always leave out the juicy details?

 

[Greatest I am]

Heaven is a tyranny. There is no other political term that can be used.

Should angels and humans rebel against tyrants?

If yes, then that would explain why a full third of angels followed Satan and rebelled and why most humans will end in hell according to scriptures. Seems humans reject tyranny as well as angels do.

I think we should do as Satan did and reject tyranny.

Do you?

Regards
DL

 

[URAVIP2ME]

That is the official report anyway. Don't you know they always leave out the juicy details?

What juicy details did Jesus leave out ?
Jesus talked about humble people inheriting the earth forever as does Psalm 37 vs 11,29
Jesus resurrected people back to healthy life on earth. Jesus resurrected No one to heaven.
Those earthly resurrections were a small preview of what Jesus will be doing in the future on a grand-global scale over earth.
Christendom ( so-called Christian ' in name only ' ) turned the attention away from earth and places all righteous ones in heaven.
They flipped what Jesus was detailing for eternal life on a material earth to the invisible heavens.
God calls only some of Jesus followers to heavenly life to be joint-heirs with Christ, but the majority of mankind will live forever on earth starting with Jesus' coming 1000-year kingdom ruler over earth, or over earthly subjects of God's kingdom government - Psalm 72:8

 

[Elusive Truth]

What juicy details did Jesus leave out ?

Nothing is left out imo,

Satan wanted to be as of God (the life and the light of men), knowing good from evil.

Just as Adam became one like God when he ate the apple. (knowledge)

Satan obviously still defies God's Law...

*There is no higher authority even among earthly governments that is higher than God's authority and scripture.

**Let God be your judge!

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Heaven is a tyranny. There is no other political term that can be used.
Should angels and humans rebel against tyrants?
If yes, then that would explain why a full third of angels followed Satan and rebelled and why most humans will end in hell according to scriptures. Seems humans reject tyranny as well as angels do.
I think we should do as Satan did and reject tyranny.
Do you?
Regards
DL

Please explain that how ' most humans will end in hell ' when that is NOT taught in Scripture ?

According to Revelation 20 vs 13,14 everyone in biblical hell will be ' delivered up '.
Doesn't delivered up out of hell mean they are No longer in hell ?

If biblical hell was the end, then wouldn't Jesus still be in hell ? - Acts 2:27

After everyone in the Bible's hell is resurrected out of hell, then isn't emptied-out hell cast vacant into a symbolic ' second death ' for vacated hell according to Revelation 20 vs 13,14 ?

Especially when the Jews began mixing with the Greeks they adopted religious-myth ideas and philosophies which were then taught as Scripture when Not really found in Scripture such as a forever-burning permanent hell of no returning.

Doesn't Matthew 20:28 teach Jesus' ransom covers MANY? _____ So, how can most humans have an end if many or the majority of mankind are covered by Jesus' ransom paid for us ?

At the soon coming ' time of separation ' on earth - Matthew 25 vs 31,32 - it is the haughty goat-like people who will be ' destroyed forever ' - Psalm 92:7 - because they are part of those who would bring ruin to earth - Rev. 11: 1 8 B - they are the unrepentant ones of 2nd Peter 3:9 who perish - are destroyed. Even Satan, who was never in biblical hell, ends up destroyed by Jesus - Hebrews 2:14 B

 

[Greatest I am]

Nothing is left out imo,

Satan wanted to be as of God (the life and the light of men), knowing good from evil.

Just as Adam became one like God when he ate the apple. (knowledge)

Satan obviously still defies God's Law...

*There is no higher authority even among earthly governments that is higher than God's authority and scripture.

**Let God be your judge!

Yet 60 odd % of Christian ignore God's law and divorce.

So much for Christians giving authority to God and his scriptures.

Can I have a quote though on Satan wanting to be like God. I had heard that he just did not want to bow to men but do not remember reading either scenario in scriptures.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Please explain that how ' most humans will end in hell ' when that is NOT taught in Scripture ?

According to Revelation 20 vs 13,14 everyone in biblical hell will be ' delivered up '.
Doesn't delivered up out of hell mean they are No longer in hell ?

If biblical hell was the end, then wouldn't Jesus still be in hell ? - Acts 2:27

After everyone in the Bible's hell is resurrected out of hell, then isn't emptied-out hell cast vacant into a symbolic ' second death ' for vacated hell according to Revelation 20 vs 13,14 ?

Especially when the Jews began mixing with the Greeks they adopted religious-myth ideas and philosophies which were then taught as Scripture when Not really found in Scripture such as a forever-burning permanent hell of no returning.

Doesn't Matthew 20:28 teach Jesus' ransom covers MANY? _____ So, how can most humans have an end if many or the majority of mankind are covered by Jesus' ransom paid for us ?

At the soon coming ' time of separation ' on earth - Matthew 25 vs 31,32 - it is the haughty goat-like people who will be ' destroyed forever ' - Psalm 92:7 - because they are part of those who would bring ruin to earth - Rev. 11: 1 8 B - they are the unrepentant ones of 2nd Peter 3:9 who perish - are destroyed. Even Satan, who was never in biblical hell, ends up destroyed by Jesus - Hebrews 2:14 B

I do not have the quotes but it is dogma that most will take the wide road to hell while only a few will take the narrow road to heaven.

From hell, after a long time in useless and purposeless torture, those souls are to be destroyed in the lake of fire.

As to Jesus and his so called sacrifice.

Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral. That immorality does not change even if Jesus would have volunteered, which he did not do.

Knowing this, any who try to ride Jesus as their scapegoat into heaven will end up in hell as to accept a substitutionary atonement is immoral.

Lastly, Jesus, if God, cannot die. If just a man, he can die but cannot die for my sins. Scriptures says we are all responsible for our sins.

Regards
DL

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Nothing is left out imo,
Satan wanted to be as of God (the life and the light of men), knowing good from evil.
Just as Adam became one like God when he ate the apple. (knowledge)
Satan obviously still defies God's Law...
*There is no higher authority even among earthly governments that is higher than God's authority and scripture.
**Let God be your judge!

Adam already had knowledge in that God had already educated Adam that eating the forbidden fruit would result in death.
Adam was rejecting that God's knowledge was needed or wanted.
By breaking God's Law then Adam was taking the Law, and God's guidance, out of God's hands, so to speak, and placing the Law into man's hands. Adam thus set up People Rule as being superior to God's Rule as the best way of governing mankind.
Human history proves man can Not successfully direct his step. That is why we need God to step in, and He will.
- Isaiah 11 vs 3,4; Revelation 19 vs 11,15

 

[Nada]

Gods universal Sovereignty was challenged.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I do not have the quotes but it is dogma that most will take the wide road to hell while only a few will take the narrow road to heaven.
From hell, after a long time in useless and purposeless torture, those souls are to be destroyed in the lake of fire.
As to Jesus and his so called sacrifice.
Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral. That immorality does not change even if Jesus would have volunteered, which he did not do.
Knowing this, any who try to ride Jesus as their scapegoat into heaven will end up in hell as to accept a substitutionary atonement is immoral.
Lastly, Jesus, if God, cannot die. If just a man, he can die but cannot die for my sins. Scriptures says we are all responsible for our sins.
Regards
DL

Jesus is Not God according to Revelation 3:14 but rather the pre-human Jesus is the beginning of the creation by God.
Sinless Jesus could pay for our sins because Jesus was without sin.
If we could stop sinning we would Not die. Because of father Adam we can't stop sinning and we die.
We can Not resurrect oneself or another, so we need someone who can resurrect us. Jesus can and will.- Rev. 1:18

It's the wide road to DESTRUCTION, Not biblical hell.- Matthew chapter 7
The narrow road leads to: everlasting life. <- Does Not say heaven.
The meek are promised everlasting life on Earth - Psalm 37 vs 11,29

What is the definition of the lake of fire according to Rev. 20 vs 13,14 but defined as: second death.

Adam, nor us, were created immortal. Adam was a sinner and the sinning soul dies according to Ezekiel 18 vs 4,20
Souls can also be destroyed according to Acts 3:23
Adam had No pre-human life. Adam went from non-life, to life, then back to non-life
Adam had No postmortem penalty. Adam simply ' returned ' to the dust of the earth were Adam started - Genesis 3:19
A person can Not return to a place he never was before.

 

[Elusive Truth]

Yet 60 odd % of Christian ignore God's law and divorce.

I wouldn't know, I'm not a christian... I'm an American.

I accepted Jesus Christ as the savior, he is the only one qualified.

 

[Nada]

I wouldn't know, I'm not a christian... I'm an American.

That has accepted Jesus Christ as the savior, he is the only one qualified.

I wouldn't know, I'm not a christian... I'm an American.

That has accepted Jesus Christ as the savior, he is the only one qualified.

So Americans are not Christians?

 

[Elusive Truth]

So Americans are not Christians?

Got me man... there are christian Americans, there's tons of Churches and Mosques and Temples in my area.

Americans are a nation of immigrants, a lot of the younger generation you can look at them and some of them are a product of a new race entirely.

I have no labels for anyone anymore, that is unless they decide to label themselves.

America is making new species (race) of humans.

*everyone is a mutt in the melting pot