1. It's not red. It a shade of purple.
2. She did write those words.
3. You are acting like a schmuck.
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Who caused Satan or the devil rebel
- Thread starter upperroom
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2. She did write those words.
3. You are acting like a schmuck.
Nada
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It's just your position is weak, and therefore, needs no real attention.
If I am not mistaken, his 'no' means you are wrong and he is correct. It's the actions of a very poor debater, IMO.
Which means that God gave satan this free will and his having given this gift, which he would have known what satan would have done owing to God being all knowing, therefore God is culpable for having given satan the free will, since he knew what satan would do with it.
World conditions today is showing Satan's point of view. Most of what we observe is designed to corrupt the hearts of mankind.
Yes the rebel Satan opposes. Opposes as a resister and slanderer, deceiver and destroyer.
Satan opposes as resister, Devil as slanderer, Serpent as deceiver, and Dragon as destroyer.
Tested Job because testing was allowed by God. Otherwise, Satan could continue with his prosecution lawyer's attack.
God could have also destroyed Adam and Eve right away thus showing that God could be a Bully.
God bullies No one to worship Him either in heaven or on earth.
There is a BIG difference between: killing, murder and an execution fir the sake or righteousness.
Both in Egypt and in Noah's day those warned people were beyond reform, beyond repentance thus they were: executed.
Parents are responsible for minor children - 1st Cor. 7:14. Those children would have also become like their parents.
Please take note that the end of the wicked came hard and swift int Noah's day, Sodom and Gomorrah, and at the Red Sea.
Thus, the end of this bad system will also come hard and swift at the soon coming ' time of separation ' of Matthew 25 vs 31,32
Does science think the visible material realm of existence had a start or a beginning ?______
How did the material / physical realm come into being. According to Scripture it was God's ' power and strength ' ( God's dynamic energy ) that started the visible world. - Isaiah 40:26
How far back can anyone trace a mother who gives birth was birthed herself ?
According to Scripture God had No beginning. God had No starting point - Psalm 90:2
Only God as Creator was ' before ' the beginning.
Before the beginning of both the invisible world and the now visible world.
Doesn't free will mean all in heaven and on earth are free to be free moral agents with the ability to choose, make choices ?
The gift of voluntary free will means God does Not interfere with one's choices.
God forces No one to worship Him. Satan and Adam chose out of their own free-will choice to break God's Law.
Angels and humans are a creation who did Not create themselves.
I don't disagree with you about the gift of free will. My point was, and maybe I was unclear, is that if God is all knowing, as the Christian faith states God is, that would mean that God would know what we would do with that free will. Now, I agree God might not interfere but I also believe God has very little part is our choices. Keep in mind, I follow a mostly buddhist path so I view God very differently than you do. Also understand that I don't believe in the devil or satan, nor that Adam is anything more than an allegorical story. But back to what my point was. God knows all, therefore even if God gave you this free will, whatever one was going to do would be known to God. Therefore he would have known satan was going to rebel and it becomes free will no longer. Taking that a step further, if God knew what satan was going to do, and allowed him to do it, God is responsible. It would be like you allowing your child to play on a freeway in 5 o'clock traffic: let's say it's the 105 freeway in la, Who is responsible when that child is mowed down by a vehicle? You are.
Btw, thank you for a civil and reasoned response to my post. It is becoming a rarity here and very much like and appreciate it.
Monk Of Reason
༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
If this is true then can we safely assume that the dark ages are a reflection of God's point of view?
This is in no way the original interpretation of the text. In fact the many different names of Satan, Lucifer and devil were all distinctly different beings in the old days. In the old testament there was no evil Satan. There was also no mention of hell.
Killing of children is murder. I don't care if god did it or not. It was murder. They did nothing wrong. It brings us to one of the conflicts in the bible where one part states that the sins of the father are inherited by the children and then there are parts that state that children are blameless for the acts of their fathers.
So why did god get to kill all of those innocent children who had no idea what was going on? Just cuz?
There is a lot of debate on that. There is no clear answer in science.
According to scripture which is based off of only the messages god gave his messengers (if he exists). If we have a totalitarian government that teaches us that the government has always been in power and that the rebel army fighting for freedom is evil does that make it true? Any kind of free thought and individuality is prohibited and even vanquished by this totalitarian government. You are to fear all sources of information from the outside as it is pure lies that will destroy you.
This would be the view from the poor citizen of that country. But the reality would be that there are rebels fighting for a greater cause and the government has a firm hold on people.
That could be a possibility of the true nature of god.
From Scripture, since God's kingdom - Daniel 2:44 - is God's government, and Jesus is king (president ) of God's kingdom for a thousand years, then Jesus is a theocrat. No, Not the modern-day definition of theocracy which is clergy rule or rule by clergy class.
God's kingdom government would then be God ruled, and placed in Jesus' hands for a thousand years over earth - 1st Cor. 15:24
Ecclesiastes 8:9,11 mentions that it is man who has dominated man to man's hurt or injury. ' Man' because God does Not interfere.
Humans have committed horrendous acts of violence causing immense suffering.
God put a stop to such a violent world in Noah's day.
Noah was Not just an Ark builder but also a preacher. Those people were warned before hand. They chose to remain violent.
God does Not tempt, or test, or try to get anyone to behave badly.
If God were to step in before bad things would happen, that would show God knew in advance. His Not stepping in shows otherwise.
God chooses Not to use His foreknowledge where our gift of free will is concerned.
There is the ' wrong use ' of free thought and individuality and that is what is prohibited.
*People are to be limited by the Golden Rule - Matthew 7:12; 22:39; Romans 12:10; 13:10
*To conquer evil with good - Matthew 5:44
*Not just be peaceful but to pursue peace - Mark 9:50; Romans 12:18; 14:19
*We are to be loyal or faithful to loved ones - Proverbs 5:15-20
*We are to be honest - Micah 6:11; Hebrews 13:18; Amos 5:15; Zechariah 8:16; Ephesians 4:25
*We are to be Not just honest workers but be diligent or industrious workers - Romans 22:29; 12:11; Colossians 3:23
In the old Hebrew Scriptures yes there is mention of Satan as the serpent in Eden, and at Ezekiel 28 vs 13-19
There is also mention of hell. No, Not the hell of religious-myth teachings, but biblical hell which is the grave.
There as No postmortem penalty for Adam. Dead Adam simply ' returned ' to the dust of the ground - Gen. 3:19
Especially when the Jews began mixing with the Greeks then they adopted the idea of a permanent burning hell.
Whereas the Bible's hell is the temporary sleeping place or stone-cold grave for the dead. - Ecclesiastes 9:5
No, Not just cuz. - God only acted after he sent people to warn people to change their bad or violent ways.
Is it cruel to pass judgment on those who are causing others to suffer ?________
Even if there were ten righteous people in Sodom, then Sodom would have been spared - Genesis 18: 20-33
God removed the righteous before Sodom was destroyed.
God searches to see the depths of the wickedness in people's hearts - 1st Chronicles 28:9
God extended mercy to wicked Canaanites who abandoned their wicked ways - Joshua 6:25; 9:3,24-26
Human suffering will only be eliminated by ridding the earth of those who would bring ruin to earth - Rev. 11:18 B
God will know when it will reach the point of no return. When minor children would grow up to be like the parent.
When the parent is beyond reform, beyond repentance so will their children be like them- Deut. 30:19,20
Yes, parents are responsible for minor children.
Both Satan and Adam as sons of God were Not minors.
Where does the Bible state God is all knowing ?
If God were to step in ' before ' something happens, then that would show all knowing.
Right, God has very little part in our choices. Meaning that God's Word is available to us, but we, Not God, make our own choices.
God does know that the time is coming when all nations of earth will be blessed . Blessed with healing and curing - Rev. 22:2
What is still unknown is who will be part of that blessing or benefit for righteous mankind on earth - Psalm 37:11,29
Since God forces No one to worship Him, forces No one to live by the Golden Rule, then it is up to each person to decide.
Whoever would want to bring ruin to earth - literal or moral - will Not be part of Jesus' coming 1000-year kingdom rule over earth.
As your leaning toward being a Buddhist, I have heard that there is a Buddhist expression that says :
' out of all the suffering or sadness on earth that there are more tears shed on earth then there is water in the ocean.'
With all that suffering or sadness in such abundance on earth, could you chalk that up to just being a consequence of human sin ?
Is it a Buddhist belief that all earth's badness or suffering is just do the Law of Karma ?
Although I will address most of this in the morning, I will address your last question. IMO, Buddhism does not have laws. And with regard to suffering. Most Buddhists beleive we choose our lives and that for learning or evolving. Hence the suffering is of own choice. Karma is something that has to do with the results of one's actions. For example, if I break your arm, karma will see to it that I suffer something similar so that I might learn the suffering I caused you. But again, I will address the rest in the am. Btw...all of this is from my own understanding and is not meant to speak for any other persons who are buddhist.
Nada
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"The Bible’s Viewpoint
Is God Everywhere?
GOD is fittingly described as omnipotent and omniscient—almighty and all-knowing. Yet, when attempting further to describe God’s greatness, some add a third term—omnipresent. They believe that God is present everywhere simultaneously.
While none of these descriptive terms are found in the Bible, the first two are clearly supported by Scriptural teachings. (Genesis 17:1; Hebrews 4:13; Revelation 11:17) God is indeed omnipotent, and he is omniscient in the sense that nothing can be hidden from him..."
Is God Everywhere? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
My understanding of the Law of Karma, or just Karma, is that mankind is reaping the results of what they did in a previous lifetime.
How can innocent woman and children injured in gunfire, or being bombed, be their own choice for suffering ?
Weren't they just in the wrong place at the wrong time? Like the people in NYC on 9/11
I will look for your post tomorrow but it will be later in the day.
Thanks for your reply.
True, ' in the sense ' that -> nothing can be hidden from God.
Where is ' omnipotent ' in Scripture - in the sense that God can Not lie - Titus 1:2; Hebrews 6:18 - God can Not make you obey Him.
Where is God ' omnipresent ' everywhere when God has a specific dwelling location - see 1st Kings chapter 8 vs 27,34,36,39,43,45,49
Where God resides - Isaiah 57:15 - is like being on the top of a mountain with binoculars. Sees but from far away. Not actually present.
The gift of free will means God is Not ' omniscient ' or All knowing in the sense that God chooses Not to know our choices in advance.
The Almighty can use His all mightiness in any way He sees fit.
The way God saw fit is that did Not involve Himself in Noah's day ' until ' the earth became filled with violence - Genesis 6:11
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Nada
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That is one view of karma, I agree. IMO, karma can be both. And as for children, as I said, it's my view that we choose the life we need to learn from and as hard as it may seem, and trust me, it gives me a great deal of pause, sometimes children choose difficult childhood experiences. For example, I was raped when I was a child. It's my view I chose that to prepare myself for when my daughter was raped. So that I could help to support and guide her through the horrific aftermath that a pedophile leaves a child of rape with. I shall look for your post. Very nice discussion with you.
Etritonakin
Well-Known Member
Are you saying that God is guilty for giving the angels the ability to make decisions -including the ability to disobey God?
Should he have forced them to obey?
God is ultimately responsible and accountable for all that has been -and what will be.
Also -obedience to God is the true gift.
Free will -necessary for creativity -also meant the ability to make mistakes -even to choose to do evil.
Free will only becomes a gift when one uses it to knowingly choose to obey God -of their own will.
Since you seem to think God is guilty of something, could you explain in detail and then describe what you think God should have done differently -or should not have done -or what he should now do to make things right?
(God technically did not give us free will. He gave us a choice between life and death.
The ability to affect each other and the shared environment adversely is only temporary -and all harm can be undone.
God is creating creators, so he allows us to have our own will, but his will ultimately supersedes ours.
"This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live")
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Where does the Bible state God is all knowing ?
If God were to step in ' before ' something happens, then that would show all knowing.
Right, God has very little part in our choices. Meaning that God's Word is available to us, but we, Not God, make our own choices.
God does know that the time is coming when all nations of earth will be blessed . Blessed with healing and curing - Rev. 22:2
What is still unknown is who will be part of that blessing or benefit for righteous mankind on earth - Psalm 37:11,29
Since God forces No one to worship Him, forces No one to live by the Golden Rule, then it is up to each person to decide.
Whoever would want to bring ruin to earth - literal or moral - will Not be part of Jesus' coming 1000-year kingdom rule over earth.
The Bible says God is all knowing in Psalms, among others. Specifically:
Psalm 147:5 Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit. Job 37:16 Do you know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him who is perfect in knowledge. Job 28:24 For he looks to the ends of the earth and sees everything under the heavens. 1 John 3:19-20 By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him; for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.
According to this, God does 'step in' because his knowledge has no limits. And as it states in John, he knows everything. I can imagine it could be argued that understanding might differ from knowing before hand but taken together with the verse in John, that does pan out.
If God were to step in ' before ' something happens, then that would show all knowing.
Right, God has very little part in our choices. Meaning that God's Word is available to us, but we, Not God, make our own choices.
God does know that the time is coming when all nations of earth will be blessed . Blessed with healing and curing - Rev. 22:2
What is still unknown is who will be part of that blessing or benefit for righteous mankind on earth - Psalm 37:11,29
Since God forces No one to worship Him, forces No one to live by the Golden Rule, then it is up to each person to decide.
Whoever would want to bring ruin to earth - literal or moral - will Not be part of Jesus' coming 1000-year kingdom rule over earth.
The Bible says God is all knowing in Psalms, among others. Specifically:
Psalm 147:5 Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit. Job 37:16 Do you know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him who is perfect in knowledge. Job 28:24 For he looks to the ends of the earth and sees everything under the heavens. 1 John 3:19-20 By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him; for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.
According to this, God does 'step in' because his knowledge has no limits. And as it states in John, he knows everything. I can imagine it could be argued that understanding might differ from knowing before hand but taken together with the verse in John, that does pan out.
re you saying that God is guilty for giving the angels the ability to make decisions -including the ability to disobey God?
Should he have forced them to obey?
God is ultimately responsible and accountable for all that has been -and what will be.
In your first sentence you ask if God is guilty for giving angels decision making ability, and then you state that God is responsible and accountable for everything. It seems to me you are admitting that God is guilty of giving the angels the ability to make choices.
Since you seem to think God is guilty of something, could you explain in detail and then describe what you think God should have done differently -or should not have done -or what he should now do to make things right?
I don't see this he way you imply. I only see God in a different light than you. I don't believe that God has anything to do with our choices. We make our own in order to evolve to a higher consciousness. It is not a question of God being right or wrong but rather us trying to live up to our highest potential. If you have any interest, the books written by Madame Helena Blavatsky.
Should he have forced them to obey?
God is ultimately responsible and accountable for all that has been -and what will be.
In your first sentence you ask if God is guilty for giving angels decision making ability, and then you state that God is responsible and accountable for everything. It seems to me you are admitting that God is guilty of giving the angels the ability to make choices.
Since you seem to think God is guilty of something, could you explain in detail and then describe what you think God should have done differently -or should not have done -or what he should now do to make things right?
I don't see this he way you imply. I only see God in a different light than you. I don't believe that God has anything to do with our choices. We make our own in order to evolve to a higher consciousness. It is not a question of God being right or wrong but rather us trying to live up to our highest potential. If you have any interest, the books written by Madame Helena Blavatsky.