Who designed the designer?

[Guy Threepwood]

who designed the designer? what fluked the fluke? same apparent paradox either way- yet here we are! so it's obviously a solvable paradox somehow and a hence a moot point re. which is the best answer.

What's not even is the capacity for blind chance versus creative intelligence to create the world we see around us..

 

[Whiterain]

It's hard to pin point the exact organization.

My favorite rendition is mythological and from Norse myth;

Before Man was conceived the Earth, Midgard, was dominated by Dragons.

But my interpretation makes lemons lemon-aide in a forgiving sense, the myth also includes the race of mythological Dwarves; who haven't been proven to exist. I consider the Neanderthal the Dwarves of Germanic myth and the Giants, giant humanbeings. Anyone could go the distance and make sense out of jabberwocky and it more than likely will not play out to favor what is now fantasy and myth.

But my interpretations would make the "Gods" incomprehensibly ancient or the legends that old - tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of years old.

As far as design, I think it was a relatively new concept where older myth's would have been more primordial accepting life was born out of nature - in a life from non-life sense (Abiogenesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia It's barely worth mentioning and I'm not trying to improvise on what I do not know, I'm not a codger like that.

My ideals on what was mentioned in Norse Myth in particular would make the Gods hundreds of thousands of years old, if you can even ponder millions. - It's totally preposterous from a mortals view.

I believe it's a fact though that Norse Myth was absolutely ancient though - among other myth.


Modern ideas in theism are the problem - not ancient ones. Ancients knew the world was ancient but didn't know the exact idea - as did they understand Nature - not deified - gave birth to life.

Believing an ancient peoples discovered immortality shouldn't be that otherworldly to understand. It's also improbable to suppose something new without substantial proof.

 

[Imaginary_Friends]

What is it with this something came from nothing? There was no time before the Big Bang. Time began with the Singularity. There was no "time" before the singularity to have "nothing".
Unfortunately we don't know enough about the initial stages of the universe or the state of the Singularity to make any assumptions about its state or where it came from ect. Particually if it required a designer or meta-physical needs.

What I don't understand is how Science has cured diseases, created conveniences, saved billions of lives and yet people chuck it out the window and perceive it with apprehension regarding the origins of the universe in lieu of old books...

 

[Andywelikandy]

Ah, so you are able to explain where infinity starts and ends?
If not, why are you talking about the start and end of your god?

If anybody knows who Almighty God is, then he/she is equal to Almighty God. There was only one Person in the history of mankind who was able to talk about Almighty God on equal terms and that was Jesus Christ also known as Almighty God. Jesus said " I and the Father are One." The JWs will tell you that what Jesus meant was that the Two are One in purpose. That is trying to evade the Truth. Jesus said " I am Alpha and Omega...the First and the Last." Almighty God is depicted as Alpha and Omega. There can never be two firsts and two lasts. Therefore they are the same One Person. Only Almighty God can know Almighty God. We puny human beings have no mental ability or capacity to know Almighty God as He IS. It's like me trying to teach my cat how to add 2 to 3 and get 5. My cat nor any other animal for that matter has the ability to do math.

 

[Andywelikandy]

I agree that if they lie they are false prophets. That is why we believe the bible is corrupted. Jesus peace be upon him never claimed divinity. However we agree with many parts of the bible. Here are some verses from the bible that I find are important for any Christian to reflect upon.

Luke 10: 25-28 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tempted him, saying, "Master what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the Law? How do you read?" And he answered saying, "Thou shall love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind, and thy neighbor as thyself." And he said unto him, "You have answered right; do this, and you shall live."


Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, the first of all the commandments is, "Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord, and you shall worship Him with all your strength and all your might and all your soul and all your heart."

Matthew 5:17-18 "Think not that I came to destroy the Law and the Prophets. I came not to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily, I say unto you that until Heaven and earth pass away not a jot or one tittle shall no wise pass from the Law, till all be fulfilled."


Mathew 19:16-17 "And behold one came and said to him, Good teacher, what good things shall I do that I may have eternal life? So he said, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but One, this God. But if you want to enter into eternal life, keep the commandments."

Mathew 36-40 36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shall love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shall love thy neighbor as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Matthew 15:19 "But in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

John 14:28 "The Father is greater than I."

John 8:28 "I do nothing of myself"

Luke 24:19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people.

John 4:19 The woman said unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.

John 9:17 They say unto the blind man again, What do you say of him, that he has opened your eyes? He said, He is a prophet.


Jeremiah 8:8 8 How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain.


If you study these verses you will wonder about two things. Did Jesus peace be upon him really claim to be the Son of god or did he even claim divinity?

Did not he teach his followers to follow the commandments?

Why was he referred to as a prophet in the bible three times?


In the Quraan and in Islam, Allah is the only One. The God that Jesus peace be upon him told his followers to worship. The Only God that Moses peace be upon him( along with all the prophets ) told men to worship.

Jesus Christ whom I worship said that He is Alpha and Omega (the First and the Last). The Quran states that Allah is the first and the last. If the Quran is true then Jesus Christ, a highly venerated Prophet of Allah lied. Did Prophet Jesus lie?

 

[Andywelikandy]

If an eternal designer can just simply exist- why not the universe?

The problem with the universe is that it is totally material. Almighty God on the other hand is 100% Spirit. Any spirit holy or evil is of non-material. That is why when Allmighty God wanted to reveal Himself to mankind, He made Himself "like one of us". He put on human flesh and showed up on planet earth as the Man Jesus Christ. Why did He become a man? So He could die as a substitute sin-bearer for all of mankind, while identifying Himself with mankind. That is why animal sacrifices were all ABOLISHED when the Perfect Lamb of God was killed on the Roman Cross. The blood of bulls and goats can never erase sin. Thus it had to be a human being named Jesus Christ shedding His Sinless Blood which was able to erase all of mankind's sins.

A Muslim man told me that SUBSTITUTION is invalid in Islam. I have bad news: when Abraham was going to kill his son on the altar did Allah not substitute a ram in the boy's stead?

 

[Ouroboros]

The problem with the universe is that it is totally material.

No. It's not. Energy, fields, time, consciousness ... none of them material. Concepts, ideas, thoughts, plans, emotions... none of those either.

 

[Sabour]

Jesus Christ whom I worship said that He is Alpha and Omega (the First and the Last). The Quran states that Allah is the first and the last. If the Quran is true then Jesus Christ, a highly venerated Prophet of Allah lied. Did Prophet Jesus lie?

No he didn't lie. The one who first said that Jesus peace be upon him he more than a prophet lied.

 

[McBell]

If anybody knows who Almighty God is, then he/she is equal to Almighty God. There was only one Person in the history of mankind who was able to talk about Almighty God on equal terms and that was Jesus Christ also known as Almighty God. Jesus said " I and the Father are One." The JWs will tell you that what Jesus meant was that the Two are One in purpose. That is trying to evade the Truth. Jesus said " I am Alpha and Omega...the First and the Last." Almighty God is depicted as Alpha and Omega. There can never be two firsts and two lasts. Therefore they are the same One Person. Only Almighty God can know Almighty God. We puny human beings have no mental ability or capacity to know Almighty God as He IS. It's like me trying to teach my cat how to add 2 to 3 and get 5. My cat nor any other animal for that matter has the ability to do math.

Am I to assume that your not answering the question at all means you do not know?
If that is the case, would it not make you a hypocrite of the type Jesus himself warned about?

Seems you have painted yourself into a corner and revealed just how bad you are back peddling.

 

[McBell]

Jesus Christ whom I worship said that He is Alpha and Omega (the First and the Last). The Quran states that Allah is the first and the last. If the Quran is true then Jesus Christ, a highly venerated Prophet of Allah lied. Did Prophet Jesus lie?

This is assuming you have the correct understanding of both scriptures...

 

[Guy Threepwood]

What I don't understand is how Science has cured diseases, created conveniences, saved billions of lives and yet people chuck it out the window and perceive it with apprehension regarding the origins of the universe in lieu of old books...

Doctors and brave missionaries cured diseases, inventors and engineers created conveniences and products which saved billions of lives- and a priest discovered the origins of the universe

scientists created steady state, the big crunch, multiverses, canals on mars, global warming, Hitler's 'superior' races and Stalin's 'superior' farming strategies..

I can understand the apprehension!

 

[Andywelikandy]

No. It's not. Energy, fields, time, consciousness ... none of them material. Concepts, ideas, thoughts, plans, emotions... none of those either.

By material I mean the things which are knowable with the five senses humans have. The items you have mentioned are not knowable by the 5 senses unless they are made to materialize in some way. In an of themselves they are all of non material stuff.

 

[Ouroboros]

By material I mean the things which are knowable with the five senses humans have. The items you have mentioned are not knowable by the 5 senses unless they are made to materialize in some way. In an of themselves they are all of non material stuff.

Quantum mechanics isn't. The Quantum Cheshire Cat problem is making it so difficult to understand our universe and test it that we might never know how the universe works based on our 5 senses. Not even intuition helps on that level. Events affected by future events. Time flowing backwards simultaneous as flowing forwards, nah, not really understandable by human senses. We don't understand consciousness either yet, and a million things. Basically, the world isn't material and it isn't knowable by our five senses, not even theoretically. But that's my opinion.

 

[Andywelikandy]

Quantum mechanics isn't. The Quantum Cheshire Cat problem is making it so difficult to understand our universe and test it that we might never know how the universe works based on our 5 senses. Not even intuition helps on that level. Events affected by future events. Time flowing backwards simultaneous as flowing forwards, nah, not really understandable by human senses. We don't understand consciousness either yet, and a million things. Basically, the world isn't material and it isn't knowable by our five senses, not even theoretically. But that's my opinion.

When it comes to entities of the spirit realm one has to totally abandon the entities of the physical or material. The spiritual always "lives" at a higher level than the physical or material, never the other way around. For example who can explain where the Big Bang occurred? Why did it occur? When did it occur? For one, it could not have occurred in space because space was non-existent before the BB.

 

[Ouroboros]

When it comes to entities of the spirit realm one has to totally abandon the entities of the physical or material. The spiritual always "lives" at a higher level than the physical or material, never the other way around.

Or a lower level. The "higher level" concept is based on the ideas of hierarchies of nature. There are none. All is interconnected and intertwined. There's no up or down, in or out, there just is all and everywhere.

For example who can explain where the Big Bang occurred? Why did it occur? When did it occur?

Can you?

For one, it could not have occurred in space because space was non-existent before the BB.

But then it couldn't have happened in something else either, because if it was within something else, then that would've been that space. If you use any concepts of inside, outside, up or down, then there must be some form of space (super-space if you want to go with super-natural).

 

[allfoak]

Perhaps the Big Bang is the moment of a cosmic exhale.
Part of an expansion and contraction process of the universe.
The breath of life.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

what is it you are inhaling...?!

 

[allfoak]

Life.
What is it you are inhaling?

 

[Nails]

The Kalam Cosmological Argument is as follows:

1. Everything which begins to exist has a cause.
2. The universe began to exist.
3. Therefore the universe has a cause.

This argument does not claim that God is the cause of the universe. However, God did not begin to exist. By definition God is eternal, causeless, and changeless. God has no cause. Therefore, there is no infinite regression, no designer of the designer as it were. If God is who theists claim Him to be (eternal, causeless) then there is no paradox.

 

[Bunyip]

who designed the designer? what fluked the fluke? same apparent paradox either way- yet here we are! so it's obviously a solvable paradox somehow and a hence a moot point re. which is the best answer.

What's not even is the capacity for blind chance versus creative intelligence to create the world we see around us..

Blind chance is not the alternative to god.