Who Has the truth? Who Will Bring World Peace?

[Trailblazer]

Isaiah 2:3 "Many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the temple of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths.4 The law will go out from Zion, the word of the LORD from Jerusalem."He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore."

OP answered.

Regards Tony

Thanks Tony, one more Isaiah prophecy fulfilled by Baha'u'llah that I can to add to my collection...
That's a beauty.... How many more can there be?

 

[RedhorseWoman]

That sounds awful. I am a free spirit so I never could have joined a religion like that, but of course if you were raised in it you would not know the difference. I was not raised in any religion and was not even looking for God or a religion but just discovered the Baha'i Faith during my first year of college because my older brother had become a Baha'i two years earlier.... I joined because of the spiritual and social teachings, not because of God. Me and God have had our problems over the years but I just started to get serious about working on those about six years ago.

If the JWs are so spiritual, why are they afraid of the outside world influences? My other hat is psychology and it is a hat I wore a lot longer than my religion hat.

Baha'is are encouraged to mix with all kinds of people and work with them in a spirit of harmony and unity. That is because we believe that humanity is all one people. I could never believe in any religion that was exclusive because that would man I was exalting myself over others and that is just not my style.

When you are brought up in a religion from a very young age (I was 7 when my mother joined) you just accept that that's how things should be, although I will say that from the time that I was a young teenager there were discrepancies between what was taught and what I knew to be true about the group that bothered me. Being a "good JW," however, I simply pushed those thoughts out of my mind and soldiered on.

Some people are quite content in the JW religion. If a person is the type who needs someone to tell them what to do in every aspect of their lives, then they are generally happy to have the JW leaders give them a rule book to live by.

Your comment about why JWs are afraid of outside world influences is something that I often wondered about as well--even when I was still a young JW. I remember one assembly/convention that we attended where JW opposers had left pamphlets on car windshields discussing various JW beliefs and why these opposers felt the beliefs were wrong.

The JWs were really upset about this, talking about how the "evil Slave" had left these pamphlets and that we should not read them. I was quite young, but even then I wondered why, if we had the "truth," we couldn't read these pamphlets. Wouldn't we be able to quickly see the "lies" and absurdities? Why were so many of the adults so obviously afraid to even LOOK at these pamphlets?

Likewise, why should JWs fear having their faith destroyed if they, for instance, attended college or had close associations with non- or even ex-JWs? It didn't make sense that the "true faith" should be so fragile that it couldn't withstand some criticism or scrutiny.

Now I know why. Once a JW is able to actually examine their religion (as JWs always urge others to do) the flaws and failings become very apparent and the facade of "true faith" crumbles. Takes some time, and often involves some physical and mental shock when you finally realize how you've been manipulated and how the "truth" really isn't all that true.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Thanks Tony, one more Isaiah prophecy fulfilled by Baha'u'llah that I can to add to my collection...
That's a beauty.... How many more can there be?

All that talk about the end of ages and the day of the lord.

Regards Tony

 

[RedhorseWoman]

Gawd... that sounds positively awful! I never had anyone do any deliberate damage to the house or property, just non-paying tenants. Believe it or not, we have a tenant who has now been renting our ocean view house for about six years, and I let him fall behind on the rent, until finally he was 11,000 behind about a year ago....

Everyone told me to evict him and cut my losses but I just waited because I had a gut feeling he would pay eventually... As it turned out, about a year ago he made two installments of $5000 each within two months and since then he has been keeping up on the rent. He still owes me $2278 for rent and a water bill I paid for him, but that is a pittance. He is honest and never complains, but why would he complain to a landlord who cut him that much slack? Anyhow, the furnace/heat pump at that house died last November and I still have not replaced it so he has had to use space heaters all this time, but he never complained.... He also has a nice wood stove that would heat that house but he said he never used it. However, wood stoves are considered adequate heat by law in this state. I need to get that furnace replaced but there is a possible electric usage problem so I have had to send the power company over to assess that before I decide on a heating system. I think he went over yesterday, I hope so.

I just posted a Craigslist ad for my other house that is vacant and I already got two responses. I expect to get a lot more because I always do. I finally raised the rent from$1200 to $1500 because that is the going rate. In have had it at $1200 for 10 years and most apartments rent for that much or more around here. That house is on 3.5 acres on the river close to town so it is unique and many people want to rent it. I just have to be really careful who I rent to this time.

The tenants who owe me $6700 let the pipes freeze while they were living there by not turning the water on when it was freezing and I had to pay the plumber and a handyman to fix the drywall but it was not very much because they were home when it happened so they shut the water off, but the time the pipes broke in December 2018 they saw the water coming down and did not even turn it off at the circuit breaker (it is on a well) so it just kept coming until my husband got over there to turn it off. By then it had caused $6000 of damage but the insurance paid for it and it got completely remodeled in that part of the house and it looks brand new. If only I had not rented to that tenant who is trying to sue I would not be too worried, but till I know what will happen with him I will worry because he is pure evil so he is capable of anything....

Renting out a house or apartment sounds like a good idea, but it can be a horror show for sure. After dealing with the last tenants who frequently didn't pay the rent, we finally decided to sell the house.

There were other horror stories concerning the house that my mother had owned and rented out. The people who lived there we discovered (after Mom had entered a nursing home and I was managing her properties) were involved in drug dealing. The teenage son was into all sorts of illegal activities including the drugs and guns and I don't know what else.

As soon as we realized what was going on, we started eviction proceedings. They moved out, but before they did, the son took a crowbar and smashed holes in almost every wall in the apartment...and it was grossly filthy. Took us several months of work and about $15,000 to get the place livable again.

 

[Trailblazer]

All that talk about the end of ages and the day of the lord.

And STILL, they do not know who the Lord was...

"To Him Isaiah, the greatest of the Jewish prophets, had alluded as the "Glory of the Lord," the "Everlasting Father," the "Prince of Peace," the "Wonderful," the "Counsellor," the "Rod come forth out of the stem of Jesse" and the "Branch grown out of His roots," Who "shall be established upon the throne of David..." (Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 94)

 

[Jedster]

Psalms 146:3-4; Jeremiah 10:23.

Faith in humans? Very little. (Not even in my Dad. My Mom, yes.)

Faith in God? To the Nth degree!!

Very sad.
Nebish

 

[Trailblazer]

Renting out a house or apartment sounds like a good idea, but it can be a horror show for sure. After dealing with the last tenants who frequently didn't pay the rent, we finally decided to sell the house.

There were other horror stories concerning the house that my mother had owned and rented out. The people who lived there we discovered (after Mom had entered a nursing home and I was managing her properties) were involved in drug dealing. The teenage son was into all sorts of illegal activities including the drugs and guns and I don't know what else.

As soon as we realized what was going on, we started eviction proceedings. They moved out, but before they did, the son took a crowbar and smashed holes in almost every wall in the apartment...and it was grossly filthy. Took us several months of work and about $15,000 to get the place livable again.

Those sound like good reasons to sell. I have been tempted to sell but I have been unable to bring myself to do it. I suppose if I had had all that damage I might consider it more seriously, bit even the tenant who is trying to sue did not do any damage... He installed a jetted tub and shower in one bathroom but did not finish it but it will be and improvement after my contractor finishes that job. He also cleared out the barn and the whole back field of scotch broom and that was a big job... It looks like he installed a hot tub outside but I don't know if it works... He also put in a new stove, refrigerator and dishwasher... I would have gladly let him stay and even given him some free rent for the time that part of the house was unusable but then he pulled that stunt of trying to sue... He is extremely vindictive and narcissistic, and my contractor knew him and said I was lucky he left on his own...

 

[Trailblazer]

Takes some time, and often involves some physical and mental shock when you finally realize how you've been manipulated and how the "truth" really isn't all that true.

That sounds like quite an experience... As I told you, I was raised in NO religion so it is difficult to relate to personally, I can only imagine. It does sound like a cult... Probably not that many escape as you were able to do... You must be a strong woman, good for you.

I know that JWs are big on proselytizing and a new one to this forum came after me on another thread a few days ago... However, he finally gave up on me after I stood my ground... If he was smart he finally realized that all he was accomplishing was giving me a reason to keep posting more about the Baha'i Faith...

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And STILL, they do not know who the Lord was...

"To Him Isaiah, the greatest of the Jewish prophets, had alluded as the "Glory of the Lord," the "Everlasting Father," the "Prince of Peace," the "Wonderful," the "Counsellor," the "Rod come forth out of the stem of Jesse" and the "Branch grown out of His roots," Who "shall be established upon the throne of David..." (Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 94)

The Bible even tells us where Baha'u'llah comes from and the route of the exiles.

How many proofs can you have?

Micah 7:13 "In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain."

Assyria was Persia East of the Holy Land and Baha'u'llah came by the way of the Gate (Bab);

Ezekiel 43:4 "And the glory of the LORD came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east."

Regards Tony

 

[RedhorseWoman]

Those sound like good reasons to sell. I have been tempted to sell but I have been unable to bring myself to do it. I suppose if I had had all that damage I might consider it more seriously, bit even the tenant who is trying to sue did not do any damage... He installed a jetted tub and shower in one bathroom but did not finish it but it will be and improvement after my contractor finishes that job. He also cleared out the barn and the whole back field of scotch broom and that was a big job... It looks like he installed a hot tub outside but I don't know if it works... He also put in a new stove, refrigerator and dishwasher... I would have gladly let him stay and even given him some free rent for the time that part of the house was unusable but then he pulled that stunt of trying to sue... He is extremely vindictive and narcissistic, and my contractor knew him and said I was lucky he left on his own...

I can see why you might be hesitant to sell. You've had quite a bit of good with the bad. Hopefully, you will be able to get things straightened out and get some good tenants.

 

[Trailblazer]

How many proofs can you have?

I don't know, there are so many, but it seems like there will never be enough for most people.
People want what they want so if they want Jesus they want Jesus. Baha'u'llah was not the same man as Jesus so no matter how many proofs we have it won't matter.

 

[Trailblazer]

I can see why you might be hesitant to sell. You've had quite a bit of good with the bad. Hopefully, you will be able to get things straightened out and get some good tenants.

Thanks... It is not really prudent to sell since I can always get good tenants.... I just need to be careful and I probably won't give anyone a lease again, but rather rent month to month. If they want to stay they will stay but if there is a problem I won't be stuck with a lease.

I just posted an ad on Craigslist a few hours ago and I already have about 10 prospective tenants who are very interested. I have already e-mailed several and tomorrow I will be on the phone a lot.

 

[Deeje]

Perhaps a boy-girl relationship breakdown is not the best analogy. It would be interesting to collect reliable data as to why people leave the JWs as it would be for my faith. In the interim all we have is anecdotal stories.

There are "EX's" in many relationships. Ex husband/wife....ex gf/bf....ex employee.....ex business partner....ex friend.....ex heads of corporations.....ex priests, etc.
When relationships end, usually one or more parties are disgruntled. If you ask that party, then the story will exclude details that might shift the blame onto themselves.....it will be a very sanitized version. Only when you can hear both sides should you judge. How many innocent people are there in prison? A judge and jury have heard both sides of the case and the jury has declared their verdict. There is a basis for judgment. If you have heard only one side, then it is foolish to judge. (Proverbs 18:17) You don't know the whole story.

I do wonder about cases where there has been mistreatment of a member of a faith community and it hasn't been appropiately addressed, then there really would be baggage like an Ex. Of course the breakdown can be due to the individual, faith community or a combination of both. I'm hearing from @RedhorseWoman she tried to fit in but the teachings of your church just didn't gel for her. If she no longer believes in the faith she was brought up, she should be free to leave without threats and coercion, don't you think? If she has had a negative experience in leaving such as being shunned by family members and friends then I can see the concern, can't you?

I am under no illusions that my brothers are perfect or at times perhaps unbalanced. That happens in all human institutions. But Jesus did not teach us to be that way as he demonstrated the correct balance himself. He associated with "tax collectors and sinners" only to offer them the good news of his Kingdom.....not because he preferred their company. The lost sheep had strayed because their shepherds were negligent. His mission was to turn them back to God. Those who failed to turn back were abandoned. Jesus did not waste his time with those who were indecisive or who were fault finders. He told them the way it was, and it was up to them to accept or reject what he said. He did not chase after anyone. (Matthew 10:11-15)

As I have personal experience with one family was raised as a JW but who has left the faith. He was not baptized, and there were no repercussions because no dedication was ever made. However if the person is baptized, then rules again apply in our brotherhood. I have three close family members who have been disfellowshipped. (One for immorality, one for alcohol abuse and the other just wanted a taste of the world) Happily they all came back to Jehovah after a period of discipline...one after 5 years, battered by the world and grateful to be back among people who love them. If you offer yourself for baptism then you know the rules, and the decision to become one of Jehovah's Witnesses carries the responsibility to live up to your dedication. You are a member of a family and what you do affects others.

It isn't a matter of just saying that you don't want to be a JW anymore. Vows were taken and to turn your back on your former congregation members, denying a faith that you accepted of your own free will, is a defection in our view. For someone to claim that they were never disfellowshipped or disassociated is a lie. Anyone who walks away has disassociated themselves. Any spiteful condemnation of the brotherhood is grounds for disfellowshipping.....sending contentions among brothers to cause division is something Jehovah hates.

Proverbs 6:16-19...
"There are six things that Jehovah hates;
Yes, seven things that he detests:
17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 A heart plotting wicked schemes, and feet that run quickly to evil,
19 A false witness who lies with every breath
And anyone sowing contentions among brothers "

We are happy to allow Jehovah to make that clear to the defectors. We owe them nothing if all they want to do is throw barbs out of spite.

 

[Deeje]

I think you are somewhat different @Deeje to other JWs. You were married for most of your adult life to one who wasn't a JW. I suspect that may have rubbed off on you in some positive ways. You shouldn't assume that because you can take a fair and reasonable approach to such all other members of your congregation do.

It is not what I would have chosen Adrian. To serve God together with your mate is something I always longed to do, but I was married before I met Jehovah's Witnesses. I was grateful that my husband's initial opposition turned to acceptance once he allowed himself to see past our opposer's lies and allowed my brothers to speak for themselves. Though he never became a JW, he always welcomed the Witnesses into our home like family. He was not a spiritual person.

I don't see why people have to feel as if they are 'married' to a church. Its a very different relationship. We have different life experiences and change.

Why do you think that Christ is said to have a "bride"? It is indeed that kind of a relationship. It is as serious a commitment as a marriage. Just as our relationship with God is like a child to a father. Wise father's discipline their children, not because they hate them, but because they love them.

My connection with God was initially through Jesus but then that expanded to recognise other Messengers or Great Educators too. I didn't think my spiritual journey would take me outside of the Christian Church but it did. That was nearly 30 years ago so I've made the adjustment.

We each have our own spiritual journey to take. God will not interfere with our choices because each one of us will be judged on who we are from his perspective. He sees the real us. (Hebrews 4:14) We can fool ourselves, but we can't fool him.

Although I was baptised as both a baby and an adult, baptism isn't a requirement of my faith as a Baha'i. A Baha'i practice is reciting an obligatory prayer daily preceded by washing my hands and face. That is a daily commitment to God, not a one off event.

The Jews had ritual ablutions as well, but there is no such requirement for Christians. We have no rituals or repetitive prayers. Ours is an education based faith. We study God's word and after 46 years, the gems still keep coming. It is an education from which I will never graduate.
Our worship is based on first century Christianity. We have no infant baptism.

But what about those who have traumatic experiences for example sexual abuse? Are they to be shunned or silenced? Don't they get a voice? How about those who simply stop believing as you do and don't want to come back. How do you view them?

No one is saying that we have no voice, or that we are shunned into silence. That is absolute rubbish.

As I said, baptism to us is a serious commitment. It involves vows, which we try to uphold as Jesus did.

Ecclesiastes 5:4-5 says..."Whenever you make a vow to God, do not delay to pay it, for he finds no pleasure in the stupid ones. What you vow, pay. 5 Better for you not to vow than to vow and not pay."

Jesus' baptism was a presenting of himself to do God's will first, rather than his own. We see baptism as a symbolic death to one's former course and a rising to follow Jesus as our leader and teacher. Those who take their vow but who then renege, stand condemned from our standpoint. Which is why a person who does not commit to God in baptism has no obligation and is therefore not disfellowshipped....though sadly they may perish along with unbelievers at the end of the day. Not making a commitment does not protect you from the final judgment.

 

[Deeje]

Hey, I'm well acquainted with the God of Abraham. He's the same God I worship too. Of course you don't believe that.

The god you worship is not the God I worship. One of us is kidding themselves.

The problem with the scripture you quote is that not all who leave the JWs are wrongdoers who are idoltars, fornicators or drunks!

But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
1 Corinthians 13:11

I hope that isn't what you think of all those who leave your congregation?

There are other things that can get a person disfellowshipped. Lying, dishonesty, sending contentions among the brotherhood and causing division. Bringing in false teachings...all these are things that God hates.

Any Faith community has rules that are necessary for all to abide by. But are they rules from man or from God? The JW rules look man made to me. Sure you can use ancient scripture to make it say argue for shunning and disfellowshipping for all sorts of reasons. But the world was very different when Paul was establishing churches amongst the Gentiles.

God does not change his standards just because the world changes theirs. As God's representative, Jesus was taught from the beginning to uphold his Father's teachings.

Hebrews 13:8...."Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, and forever." Why would a changed world alter the standards of a perfect God?

I really can't see any problem if someone wants to leave. The JWs are simply leaving themselves open to criticism with their shunning and disfellowshipping. Just sayin...

I understand that others might not agree with what we do, it makes no difference to us. Anyone is free to leave our ranks.....what they are not free to do is still pretend to be a JW so that they can continue to enjoy fellowship with family whilst defaming the brotherhood to others.

When you don't have both sides of a story, you cannot make a judgment. If you do make a judgment then more fool you. (Proverbs 18:17) God will judge us as we judge others.

The problem is when we imagine ourselves to be above others because of the faith we follow.

Its not a case of being "above" anyone. If you have a conviction that your faith is the true faith, and others are headed for an adverse judgment, then you are under obligation to share it with as many as you can. There is no reward except that you may save someone's life. Its the reason why emergency service workers go door to door so that people can take the necessary action to save themselves from a natural disaster. That is how we see our work.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The god you worship is not the God I worship. One of us is kidding themselves.

Or one holds off on accepting the obvious.

Regards Tony

 

[savagewind]

When you don't have both sides of a story, you cannot make a judgment. If you do make a judgment then more fool you. (Proverbs 18:17) God will judge us as we judge others.

Ecclesiastes 5:4-5 says..."Whenever you make a vow to God, do not delay to pay it, for he finds no pleasure in the stupid ones. What you vow, pay. 5 Better for you not to vow than to vow and not pay."

Those who take their vow but who then renege, stand condemned from our standpoint.

When I was baptized as a Jehovah's Witnesses my vow was to GOD! It might never cease to amaze me that Jehovah's Witnesses believe it is alright to make their vows to a man-made organization.

 

[savagewind]

The baptism vows of Jehovah's Witnesses include "do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization?" But, I soon learned that it isn't God Spirit directed so when I got proof from an elder who told me that I have to "trust the governing body", I left. Psalms 146:3

 

[james blunt]

I have the truth but people don't seem to want to listen, they'd rather have their own fake version of reality . My reality scientific proves a miracle , from this miracle we can conclude that God is the Universe . My reality unites all religion and answers the question of what is one .

 

[Vinayaka]

Let's see some of those.

There is some at the bottom of this page. Criticism of the Bahá'í Faith - Wikipedia

I would be surprised if you read it though, and I'd understand why.