Leilaniana
Member
Being enlightened does not mean that one knows everything.
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Who here is enlightened?
- Thread starter Penumbra
- Start date
Being enlightened does not mean that one knows everything.
Welcome!
Leilaniana
Member
When one reaches bliss one is neither thinking or communicating so I'd say yes it is different. Knowing does not have to involve thinking. It can though it depends on the source of the knowledge we're talking about.
Leilaniana
Member
By removing doubt.
But the moment you think you've removed all doubt, you will be ignorant of new data and miss out on the fact that you do not know the absolute truth after all. 
Might sound like I'm just trolling you but I'm not. One can never know that one knows the truth. One can never know that one knows everything that is to know on a subject.
In my experience there are two types of people:
- those who do not know the complete Truth about something, but they are aware that they do not know everything
- those who do not know the complete Truth about something, but they think they do
Might sound like I'm just trolling you but I'm not. One can never know that one knows the truth. One can never know that one knows everything that is to know on a subject.
In my experience there are two types of people:
- those who do not know the complete Truth about something, but they are aware that they do not know everything
- those who do not know the complete Truth about something, but they think they do
^It's interesting that, when the context of the discussion is set aside, this statement is descriptive of either enlightenment or illegal drug use.
I suspect illegal drug use of the sort that mimics what people experience during satori has quite as lasting an effect as satori. But maybe it does for some individuals. People who have had mystical experiences often enough behave somewhat differently than people who have had drug induced experiences. For one thing, people who have had mystical experiences frequently don't talk about them for years or even decades later, yet describe them as remaining vivid in their memories.
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Leilaniana
Member
I thought this was the who here is enlightened discussion.
I was sober so it wasn't illegal drug use.
It is, I'm just making an observation.
I'm not saying it was, far from it. I'm saying naturally-induced experiences like this sound awfully similar to what certain chemicals do.
Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
In case you didn't notice, Penumbra started this thread...
Who here is enlightened?
InChrist
Free4ever
I believe enlightenment in the biblical sense involves coming to the realization that all have sinned and that means me personally. This realization led me to an understanding of my need for being saved by Jesus Christ who the scriptures say came into the world to save sinners, such as myself. I believe this point of knowing who Jesus Christ is and trusting Him for forgiveness and eternal life is the point of enlightenment.
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come. And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all. Ephesians 1:13-23
I personally feel that the moment you think yourself to be "enlightened", you've lost any chance of becoming enlightened. I dislike the elitism implicit in the idea. True saints would surely put themselves at the feet of others and would feel themselves to be least and last of all. They certainly would not, I should think, be seeking fame on an internet forum. For my part, no: I am not enlightened, nor would I ever hope to be set apart from anyone else in some "enlightened state". In the Church, we are all one body in Christ, sharing one faith. There are no Gnostics, no initiated elite with a greater share of truth than the uninitiated masses. The Holy Spirit is within every heart - including those of good faith and will outside the church, whenever they adhere to their conscience. Our conscience is our own innate "enlightenment". We're all naturally enlightened, we simply have to learn to look within and contemplate the image of God in us. I just want to lead a good, spiritual life; a contemplative life with both action and interior rest. As Christ said, "You are the light of the world...let your light shine before men". Yes, you are the light of the world, and me and we collectively. At the very heart of our being God resides as Light, that same metaphoric Light that shone in the darkness of the unformed universe after the big bang, shines in our hearts by grace. Enlightenment should be "democratic" not "elitist". It should be seen as within the grasp of everyone as a natural capacity for goodness, self-transcendence and infinite love.
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Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
Agree totally, enlightenment means selflessness, and hence the wisdom in the old saying,...."the one who says does not know, the one that knows does not say".
In zen understanding, so long as there is a 'you' that claims enlightenment, or does not claim enlightenment, that 'you' is as far from enlightenment as the day they were born. It's a the 'you' that separates 'you' from the underlying non-dual nature of God/Nirvana/Tao/Brahman/etc.. A house divided can not stand!
Still, many of those that claim enlightenment have generally had a expansion of consciousness that has changed their life, but while the first drops of rain may herald the coming storm, it is not the storm. The biggest obstacle to realizing enlightenment is the ego, not that the ego is bad, but that it must surrender to higher consciousness in order for there to exist an enlightened being. And there's the rub, the ego would generally prefer to remain in control and thus separate itself from its Source, inducing therefore a conceptual based reality rather than the non-conceptual reality which alone is an indivisible whole.
If you believe the objective is to return to the source, then in your opinion, why does anything other than source in its enlightened oneness exist? Why is the state of existence not already 100% enlightened?
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
A fantabulicious question, Penumbra. This is where the rubber hits the road, methinks. I won't pollute the thread with my rambling thinking just yet. I'll let others steer this question for a bit... and see where they go.
Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
The whole of existence is 100% enlightened as you put it.
So long as there is a 'you' who believes or doesn't believe anything, there can be no realization of enlightenment as the believer sees themselves separate from the enlightenment. Nothing that is separate from enlightenment can enter into enlightenment because it is already 100% whole and indivisible enlightenment.
But that's my question.
Why are there any "you's" that believe themselves to be separate at all? Why does this problem exist in this universe, in your worldview?
I know your question was directed at someone else, but in my opinion, the evolutionary reason for the ego is that it most likely evolved as a kind of defense mechanism. As you know, the ego separates the world into me and not-me. And by creating this separation in awareness, it allows for the individual to have foresight into what the not-me in his or her environment might be up to that would endanger him or her. At least that's my hunch. It's no more than a hunch, though.