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Nope. Actually, the vast bulk of the Tanakh (Old Testament) deals with the fact that the Israelites often did NOT believe and obey. Indeed, no sooner did Moses ascend Mt Sinai to get the commandments, than Israel reverted to making a golden calf to worship. Did they stop being Israel when they sinned? No.
Hebrews 10:9
Is there some reason why you posted a random verse instead of answering the question you chose to quote?
If there is nothing about the verse that addresses the question in the quote, it is random.
Yep.. You just made my point. Even though the vast majority of Israelite's in the old testament did not believe and obey what Gods Word says. God still had people that did. You might want to also note the old covenant laws for those Israelite's that were caught in known unrepentant sin who no longer chose to believe and obey what Gods Word says. They were to be cast out of Israel and under civil law stoned if they would not repent and confess their sins to God (let me know if you would like me to share them with you). What this was teaching is that Gods Israel are only those who believe and obey Gods Word. That is what makes us Gods people or not Gods people and who Gods true Israel is according to the scriptures in both covenants. As already proven in the scriptures already posted in the OP from the old and new covenant scriptures you do not want to discuss Gods true people have only ever been those who choose to believe and obey Gods Word (present tense). see the scriptures already posted in post # 1 linked; post # 3 linked; post #4 linked. You simply choose to ignored them. If you disagree please provide a detailed scriptural response to the three linked posts and the scriptures provided in them that outline who Gods Israel is in the new covenant that are in disagreement with you.
Hi @Elihoenai. Happy 2024 and @IndigoChild5559. I think what @Elihoenai is trying to say (please correct me if this is not what you are saying) is that sin starts in our mind (thoughts and feelings - see Matthew 5:28). Gods true salvation begins in the mind through faith in His Word and salvation is from the inside out. (e.g. start with our mind, thoughts and feeling). This is why Jesus says that if our righteousness does not exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees we will not enter into the kingdom of Heaven. We need to be born again of the Spirit of God from the inside out to believe and obey Gods Word. This is what Gods new covenant promise is about from Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekial 36:24-27 repeated in Hebrews 8:10-12. You see the Scribes and the Pharisees and the teachers of the law in Jesus day and today obeyed Gods Word and law externally but unwardly they were like dead mans bones full of sin and unbelief not believing and obeying Gods Word from the heart which is where Gods salvation begins and is Gods new covenant promise to all those who have been born again through faith in His Word to walk in Gods Spirit who have been given a new heart to love God and their fellow man. The uncoverted natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God neither can he know them for they are foolishness unto him."
Funny, that, hey?
My point is that we can safely ignore the NT if we want to understand the God of the Jewish nation.
Let me give you a well-known example of a contrived "prophecy", the virgin birth of Jesus in Matthew and Luke, based on Isaiah 7:14. The word in the Tanakh is ʿalmâ, young woman. Were she specifically a virgin she's be bᵊṯûlâ. The problem here arises when the translators of the Septuagint translated ʿalmâ as parthenos, 'virgin' as such.
Indeed, and not least because nothing about Jesus qualified him as a Jewish messiah, since he was neither a civil, military or religious leader of the Jewish people nor anointed by the priesthood (which as you know is what 'messiah' means).
Yep Gods Word is amazing but it is hidden from those who do not believe it.
For me personally I would disagree. The new testament comes from the old testament scriptures. Together they are the Word of God.
You as an unbeliever claim that the virgin birth is a contrived prophecy because you are still in your sins and unbelief like all those who rejected Jesus as Gods Messiah that the scriptures point to so you cannot know God and His Word while you close your eyes and ears to seeing and hearing Gods Word. For example you might want to also consider that the Greek word used for ʿalmâ, young woman as parthenos, 'virgin' actually comes form the Hebrew to Greek translation of the Septuagint that was translated from the Hebrew to Greek by 70+ Hebrew scholars.
I accept that such a view is held by many Christians. But as I stated at the start, I can't see any basis for the writers of the NT to tell the people of the Tanakh what the Tanakh means. None of the NT was written by an eyewitness to the events described, and the key ones are structured so as to conform with passages from the Tanakh, NOT from history ─ as in the examples I gave, though there is a larger picture of that kind too.
Jesus may be a messiah as an honorary title bestowed by his followers, but as I said, at no stage did he qualify as a Jewish messiah, the only kind, it seems to me, that matters in this discussion.
Wrong and irrelevant scriptures, from my POV. The Christians were never in a position to tell the Jewish nation who was the messiah of the Jewish nation and who was not, nor would any Jewish person, even one of great goodwill, have recognized Jesus as a Jewish messiah in any sense.
Have you read the text? No objective onlooker could possibly regard the virgin birth as a credible story.
Too many cooks, you say? That might well explain it.
Behold a woman shall conceive and bear a child. Fine.
It's not as if >I haven't looked<.
Ah, yes, Ezekiel 18. Read it carefully, not least verse 20. It says that sin can't be inherited, that there's no original sin. Of course there's no mention of sin in the Garden story either ─ how could there be, considering that Eve had expressly been denied knowledge of good and evil and it was therefore impossible for her to form an intention to do wrong, hence to sin. But that's changing the subject, apologies.
It is a larger view held by many Christians of the old and new covenant scriptures because that is what the scriptures teach. I think what you are missing here is that God is not the God of the dead but of the living. His Word is for the living and it says that those who are His people are those who believe and obey His Word. Gods people have never been those who do not believe and do not obey His Word.
As already proven through the scriptures in the very ones you posted that statement and claim has no truth in it and is simply a statement of unbelief in the scriptures already shared with you in my last post that are in disagreement with you. I do not expect you to understand the scriptures however because you do not believe in God or His Words. Therefore you cannot understand God of see and hear Him.
That is a wrong and irrelevant claim from my POV. I think the evidence already provided in my last post demonstrates this. I did not expect you to agree with it because you are an unbeliever who chooses not to believe God and His Word. I simply posted if for you to show why I did not believe your earlier claims in your post about the virgin birth and why I called your claims nonsense by looking at the original Hebrew and Greek in case it might be helpful to other believers.
You mean to say hear "no unbeliever could possible regard the virgin birth as a credible story." This is because according to the scriptures, "the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, because they are foolishness unto him and spiritual things are spiritually discerned." (1 Corinthians 2:14) and again "For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He takes the wise in their own craftiness." (1 Corinthians 3:19).
This section for me does not really add any credibility to any thing you have posted so far in my view. There is no contradictions in the scriptures that I can see. Only poor interpretation of the scriptures from an unbelievers point of view. As posted earlier, spiritual things are spiritually discerned. There was no faulty text in the Septuagint unless you are trying to now argue that the 70+ Hebrew scholars that all translated and checked the Hebrew scriptures when translating them into the Greek all collectively got it wrong? I am not sure what your Hebrew credentials are but I suggest you re-read my last post to you that is in disagreement with you and proves why your position is incorrect from the original Hebrew, and supporting translations to the Septuagint.
A lot of your post was repetition here already addressed in the last post to you (much of which you simply choose to ignore). Perhaps what you are not considering here or missed the point of why Ezekiel 18 4 was posted to you. It is simply stating if we continue in sin and unbelief we will die in our sins and unbelief. So not sure what point you are trying to make in the last section of your post here but thanks for sharing your view.
The problem of understanding plain fact is in your court.
As Ms Keeler might have put it, they would say that, wouldn't they.
But which God, the Jewish or the Christian one? They're totally different ─ the Jewish God is not triune, nor needs to be, for instance.
The question is easily resolved. Let's ask someone who's mainstream Jewish.
I think it would be greatly to the advantage of your understanding if you were to read what the bible says, Tanakh and NT, with a critical instead of a credulous eye, the same way you'd read and appreciate any other ancient document. What, when, where, by whom, for what purpose? A major difference between us appears to be that I don't believe in magic.
I'd happily believe in God if there were any evidence that God had objective existence, could be found as a real entity in reality, the world external to the self. But as you know, God never appears, never says, never does, never saves the innocent drowning child, never intercepts the murderer, sits on [his] almighty hands as the road toll rises, humans poison the air and boil the planet, and so on.
Thank you for your views. We will of course continue to disagree, I take it.
Just about all religions, all political parties, even sports teams, encourage you to have faith, to belong, to accept the legends and the stories in the name of the greater good of the group.
Then I can only conclude that you haven't read the NT with sufficient care.
Is there an objective test that can distinguish spiritual things from imaginary things?
Well if you understood both the new covenant and old covenant scriptures you would understand that the new covenant scriptures come out of the old covenant scriptures. That is their origins. So for me to make the claim of an unbeliever that the Tanakh does not teach the new testament scriptures is nonfactual nonsense and simply a comment made by those who do not believe Gods Word.
Nonsense. If you understood and know Gods Word and the old and new testament scriptures you would know that we are talking about the very same God you deny and do not believe.
Why? Could it be because your answer has already been given but you did not like the answer because it was in disagreement with you? My earlier posts to you already answers this question from 70+ Hebrew scholars that translated Isaiah into the Greek Septuagint. These are all in agreement with what I posted to you in my first response to you. So what you are telling me here is that they all got it wrong because they do not agree with your unbelief?
Yes thanks. I read what the bible says. I am not really interested in you trying to justify your unbelief which is not what the bible teaches. Lets be honest. All you are posting here is you trying to justify your unbelief. I do not believe you and I have proven why I do not believe you from the scriptures. I think our discussion would go better though if you actually tried to address my posts that prove why what you claim is not true. If you cannot there is nothing much we can further discuss. So please forgive me if I do not believe you.
I use to think that way. I also use to be an atheist Blu. Then one day I started thinking there must be more to life, than eating, drinking, working, sleeping and dying. I mean I knew that Christians could not prove to me that God was real in my unbelief but deep down Blu... I knew I also could not prove that there was no God either. I came to the realization that I by believing in atheism was living just as much by faith as my religious friends. Then I started thinking what if God is real and I am wrong? This question haunted me for some time until I decided why not go and see if God really is in religion? I mean what did I have to lose right? At the very least I could claim that God was not real and I have looked right? So I slowly started looking. I started with Buddhism.. but I did not find God or peace there. I then looked into some of the Eastern philosophy religions (Taoism; Daoism) there was no peace and God there so I left. Then looked into the New Age religions and did not find any peace or God there so I left. Then I looked into Islam.. no peace and God was found there either so I left. There was no God and peace also in Hinduism. Here I was ready to give up and feeling pretty pleased with my self not finding any God or peace in these religions. The a little voice in my mind said "You still have not tried Christianity. You see Christianity was the very last place I thought God would be. But I thought well I only have this one to go why not have a quick look. I did not go to Church I just decided to read the bible for myself at home and pray to God to help me to see if he was here or not. I started reading the bible for myself.... It was different, I had this strange awareness of peace and of a presence being with me that was much greater than me... I started getting answers to pray that I could not explain. I started learning things about myself that started making sense. Now let me tell you. As an unbeliever we can never see God of find Him because to find God and for God to reveal Him self to us we must want to believe and obey His Word. I was all in and genuine in wanting to find God, now I have no doubt that God is 1000% real. Since that time I have had strange visions and dreams I also cannot explain away. Whats happened? God gave me evidence that He is real to me personally because I choose to seek him and believe and obey His Word. I do not need anyone to tell me God is real or not real because I know God is real. He knows me and I know Him. I was an athiest once until God proved me wrong and here I still am today finally realizing that my unbelief was what closed my eyes to seeing and my ears to earing God who was all this time calling me to himself. I disagree with you my friend. God does indeed appear to all those who look for him. Those who do not believe of look for God are the ones that will never find Him in this life.
That is your view as an unbeliever because you do not see God or know Him. I disagree with your view and have heard a lot of testimonies from believeing disproving your claims here of how God had miracoulously saved them different experience like this in their lives and have answered their prayers. The bible testifies of the same too in both the old and new testament scriptures. I think what you do not see here as well Blu because you are looking through your glasses of unbelief is that this short life is only a test for a better life to come. Every bit of sadness, and suffering in this world we live in today is because the world does not believe and obey what Gods Word says. Sin is the cause of all sadness and suffering that we have in this world today, weather you are talking about the murderer that kills someone in your family, your friends that lie to you, others that seek to commit adultery with your wife.. etc etc. You get the picture.
Well that is not true. God is described all through the old and new testament scriptures but you just choose not to believe these scriptures right? Well of course you will not have Christians agreeing with other religions if they know the one true God and that our salvation is contiional on us believing and obeing what His Word says. God is very consistent. You just choose not to see this while at the same time blaming our choice for sin on God when it is us who have free will to choose to believe and obey God or not.
Yes even the religion of Atheism right even though they cannot prove there is no God but I agree just because someone believes something does not mean what that person believes is true. That was the case for me when I was an atheist who believed there was no God.
I have indeed read the new testament with sufficient care. I know the old and the new testament scriptures it seems much better than you do and the very God who gave them to us.
There is literally nothing you have posted here that I cannot answer for you just like your claims about Isaiah and the virgin birth. If I answer your claims above just like your claims about Isaiah and Luke will it change your mind and make you seek to know God and believe and follow His Word through the scriptures? Or will you just choose again like you did with my earlier posts to ignore them and continue in your unbelief and sins? (honest questions Blu. I will answer your claims here just like I did your claims about the virgin birth, in Isaiah and Luke but not if you are really not interested. It would be a waste of each others time.)
Hi @3rdAngel,
That 'a new covenant' is mentioned in the Tanakh does not empower the Christians to tell the Jewish nation ─ who are called God's chosen people ─ what and what is not a new covenant.
You're saying faith can go where the facts cannot, it appears.
That was true in the period when the gospels were written, though as the antisemitism evident in John shows, already changing by then.
Because (a) the idea of a real virgin birth of a male child is not credible, and (b) it's claimed for a minority of Jesuses in the NT, for those of Matthew and Luke, but categorically not for the Jesus of Mark, and not even mentioned with the Jesuses of Paul and of John.
Apparently you don't, since everything I've told you here is explicitly set out in the NT.
Why not? Millions of Buddhists do it every day, for instance (although some parts of Buddhism have supernatural beliefs ─ Tibetan Buddhists have a pantheon for example).
I assure you that outside the debate boards of RF it's no concern of mine whether you have faith or not, and I wish you well with whatever you find suits you. Some of my good friends and dearest relatives are believers, a problem easily avoided by neither side ever raising it.
As above, I wish you well.
And yet no one has found any statistical evidence to show that prayers are anwered at any rate greater than chance. Indeed, one hospital experiment found that if (believing) patients were aware they were being prayed for, a statistically significant number of them tended to regard it as a sign that things were worse with them than they'd been told,and their condition declined accordingly.
I've never seen the point of living forever. When you're a living thing, you're born with an evolved life plan built in ─ infancy and education, adolescence and breeding, adulthood, protection and hunting / foraging ─ and with humans, grandparent status, part of the enormous human biological expenditure (some 20%) on our large brains. and the long duration of infancy and dependence, at least five years. And then you die and are remembered or forgotten as may be. What sense of purpose is possible in eternal life? How do you plan to fill in the first hundred billion years, how do you plan to feel purposeful, to have a meaningful existence, to feel you're actually heading somewhere that matters? (Or as Woody Allen is said to have said, 'Eternity is very long, especially towards the end'.)
You think Christians are immune to that?
If God is real then God is a being out there in reality, in nature, in the world external to the self. God therefore has a description appropriate to a real being, such as height weight skin or fur color, number of limbs, number of digits, number and nature of sensory organs, and so on like other real and living things.
I'm technically an igtheist aka ignostic, since I think the idea of a real God, at least in the West, is incoherent. The correct reply when asked whether I believe in God would be, What real being do you intend to denote when you say 'God'? That's not being cute, by the way ─ it appears to be an authentic problem for believers to provide a coherent answer appropriate to a real being.
And yet you appear never to have noticed that there are five Jesuses in the NT built on three totally different and incompatible models. And the situation with the Resurrection is even worse ─ no eyewitness account, no contemporary account, no independent account, and six versions in the NT (gospels, Paul, Acts 1) that contradict the other five in major ways.
No it doesn't, but you forget dear friend that Christianity was made by Jews and came from Jews and came out of the Jewish nation and is Jewish teachings that comes our of the Tanakh and wow.. look at how much it has grown today.
As posted earlier and shown through the old and new covenant scriptures - Same God not a different one.
Yes just have a look at Atheism. Even science does not have all the answers. If it did we would no longer need it.
It is true today as God is not the God of the dead but of the living and the scriptures are written for the living not the dead that is why if is written in the scriptures, "All these things are written for our admonition upon who the ends of the world have come." There is only one true version of Jesus. You can never know it though if you are looking through the eyes of unbelief and sin. According to the scriptures Jesus is God but you cannot see this in unbelief because you do not understand and know the scriptures and you do not know God.
Sure it is credible. You just do not believe it because you are an unbeliever who does not believe in God and His Word choosing rather to live in your sins and unbelief and pretending that God does not exist. Of course that is your choice. You do not need to worry because you will find out soon enough if God is real or not. I hope for you that you do not find out too late. Unbelief of course is your choice and the reason you cannot see God and do not know Him. Just because some people mention something that happens and other people are silent on a topic in the bible does not mean that thing did not happen now does it? Think your argument through. You really are not making your case here to be an unbeliever.
Lets be honest. Your not being truthful. There is nothing you have posted here that you have been able to prove that I have not been able to show you from the scriptures that is not true. You cannot understand what the scriptures teach because you do not know God and His Word.
As posted earlier.. been there and done that. God is not in Bhuddism and there is no peace there.
Yet here you are spending all your time trying to convince people that there is no God trying to justify your sins and unbelief.
Why would anyone need to have statistical evidence to show that prayer has been answered? Seriously Blu.. How are you going to design an experiment like that? With all the variables involved (e.g. prayer is conditional on faith, the believer not living in known unrepentant sin; if it is Gods will to what is good for us) This is also a silly argument that you propose to justify your sins and unbelief in my view. But for those who receive answered prayers we know 100% our prayers are answered because we believe in God and are thankful for His help. Your argument not to believe here for me once again is a silly one.
You do not see the point of everlasting life because you do not know God and His Word. The point us that all the suffering and sorrow and sadness in this world today is because of sin and unbelief. That is where you are at the moment. That is where all of us have been. However, the point is this. For those who by Gods grace have found God and see Him God promises them an everlasting life without sin and unbelief. A life were there is no more sin, sorry, sadness and suffering. A life we cannot even imagine, full of happiness, joy, peace. This world is only a test for a better life to come for those who believe and obey Gods Word.
Absolutely.. all of us have sinned according to the scriptures and stand guilty before God of sin and death (see Romans 3:9; Romans 3:19; Romans 3:23; John 3:36; 1 John 3:4, James 2:10-11 and Romans 14:23.
Nope God is indeed very real. He is even with you now watching you read this post but you will never see him and find Him in your sins and unbelief.
Not at all. The only way to know God is through faith in His Word and He has promised us that if we seek Him through His Word with all of our hearts He will reveal Himself to us in Jeremiah 29:13. What have you got to lose by giving it a try? I was an unbeliever and tried to find God in and He did reveal Him self to me. I now talk to him every day and He talks to me. I have met Him also sometimes in my dreams and visions of His Word.
Yea I have heard that before. For me though it is just another term for an unbeliever that does not want to believe God exists.
Sorry I do not believe you. You are speaking from an understanding of someone that does not believe in God and does not know or understand Gods Word so you will never know what is true and what is not true in that frame of mind.
Yes I believe in a literal and Spiritual meaning of the scriptures ... like Jesus use to speak in parables. The bible is consistent. For example... one that really spoke to me of Gods plan of salvation in the new covenant was Abraham in offering His son Isaac as an burnt offering to God (see Genesis 22:1-13). The lesson here is that this was what God the father was going to do in offering Jesus life for the sins of the world to all those who through faith choose to believe.
Well everything in the new covenant scriptures comes from the old covenant scriptures. Many laws in the old covenant are shadow laws pointing to Jesus or Gods plan of salvation in the new covenant and are continue and fulfilled in Christ to who they pointed to as Gods plan of salvation. As an example to your questions 1 & 2. Animal sacrifices for sin offerings in an earthly Sanctuary also show that the Spiritual meaning here is that Christ is Gods lamb (see John 1:29) that takes away the sins of the world and that Jesus is also Gods true High Priest of the order of Melchizedek the Priest king who now ministers in the heavenly Sanctuary made without hands based on better promises under the new covenant. (see Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27 and Hebrews 10:1-22). Christ our Passover is now sacrifices for us. (no more animal sacrifices and sin offerings).
Christianity was made by a small branch of Hellenized Jews originally concerned with the imminent apocalypse, which is why the ambiguous Son of Man is going to rock up VERY shortly, and certainly within the lifetime of some of Jesus' hearers in Mark, Matthew and Luke, but of course not in John because by the 90s CE when John was written it was clearly a dead letter. John is written as Christianity is asserting its distinctness from Judaism and becoming antisemitic, as you know.
At the time of the gospels, yes that's arguable. Jesus was a circumcised Jew himself. But when Christianity started to grow and the push came to elevate Jesus to God status ─ which was quite early ─ all of the very clear denials by the Jesuses of Paul and each of the gospels that they were not God were thrown out the window, and games like the Trinity evolved.
But science states clearly that it doesn't have all the answers. As Brian Cox remarked, a law of physics is a statement about physics that hasn't been falsified yet. The justification for science is not that it's perfect but that it works. Whether you're a Christian, a Hindu, a Buddhist, a Muslim, a follower of the Great Spirit and friends, or a nonbeliever, your refrigerator will cool things down when you hook it up to the power.
You keep asserting that, and I keep pointing out that according to the gospels you're wrong. Do you want me to set out chapters and verses for this matter too?
Now now. You've totally failed to give reasoned replies to the matters I've mentioned, and used mere assertion instead. What I've told you about the Jesuses of the gospels is set out in the gospels. I didn't invent it, distort it, or add to it. I've merely drawn it to your attention, and you don't want to look in case I'm right.
Dear 3rdAngel, whatever wrongs I've done in my life, and there are a few, I've done my best to repair. I told you earlier my aspiration is to do no harm, and to treat others with decency, respect, inclusion and common sense. I haven't set out to do this out of promise of reward in the hereafter, or threat of punishment in the hereafter, or anything in the hereafter because we only get one life. I've done such things because I think they're the right thing to do, and when I've failed to do them, I've regretted it to myself.
So that one can demonstrate to people like me that the magic actually works ─ which it very apparently doesn't.
Knock and it shall be opened, but only as often as chance would provide. Ask and it shall be given, but again only as often as chance.
What is the point of everlasting life? To do what, exactly?
I don't want God not to exist. I simply point out that God never appears, says or does in reality, and is described not as a real being but as an imaginary one, and is only known to exist as an idea, concept, thing imagined, in an individual brain.
Then once again you don't know what your own book says. I don't make this stuff up. I simply read the texts to find out what they say. And I repeat my offer to set the relevant texts out for you, but you appear to shy away from that. Still, the link above, setting out where each version of Jesus denies that he's God (or has Paul it say it for him) will give you the idea.