Who is the creator of this World?

[justaguy313]

IMFOP In Christianity there is only (1) God. The devil was a son of God who went rogue.

It depends of which Christian denomination you speak of. In my humble opinon Christianity was hijacked long time ago.

Lucifer was a jinn, who was raised to the highest rank of angels. He fell because he didn't want to prostrate to Adam a.s. and later deceived him in the Garden of Eden.

 

[PureX]

When pointed out:

You replied:

When asked for clarification:

You replied:


You appear to be conflating the question with the answer.

Of course, the question and the many possibilities it provides us generate the many different presumed answers.

A single question can often result in different answers some of which can be correct and some of which can be (and often. are) incorrect.

Except that we still can't know which is which. So they all remain possible. It's why people hold onto them.

This in no way indicates that the correct and the incorrect answers are the same simply because they are both given answers to the same question.

The question of correctness is irrelevant since it is unknowable. What is relevant is how the various imagined solutions serve those who hold into them.

In addition not all questions proposed necessarily have answers and the fact that many may offer an attempt to answer that question doesn’t make those attempts the same.

We do what we do in the face of the unknown. We imagine what could be.

 

[Dao Hao Now]

Of course, the question and the many possibilities it provides us generate the many different presumed answers.

Except that we still can't know which is which. So they all remain possible. It's why people hold onto them.

The question of correctness is irrelevant since it is unknowable. What is relevant is how the various imagined solutions serve those who hold into them.

We do what we do in the face of the unknown. We imagine what could be.

None of this means the question is equal to the professed answers, or that all those answers indicate a single concept.

 

[PureX]

None of this means the question is equal to the professed answers, or that all those answers indicate a single concept.

Clearly they all spring from the same source quandary. And it is that quandary that unifies them (us), even in spite of all those many imagined differences and possibilities. And it is that quandary that even the atheists can’t escape. They, too, are imagining their own possibilities and holding to them In the face of their unknowing.

 

[Dao Hao Now]

Clearly they all spring from the same source quandary. And it is that quandary that unifies them (us), even in spite of all those many imagined differences and possibilities. And it is that quandary that even the atheists can’t escape. They, too, are imagining their own possibilities and holding to them In the face of their unknowing.

Again, none of this means the question is equal to the professed answers, or that all those answers indicate a single concept.
In fact many (if not most) of those concepts contradict many of the other concepts, thus indicating that they all are not describing a single concept.

 

[PureX]

Again, none of this means the question is equal to the professed answers, or that all those answers indicate a single concept.
In fact many (if not most) of those concepts contradict many of the other concepts, thus indicating that they all are not describing a single concept.

The single concept is that quandary … of origin and purpose. Origin and purpose are a duel concept. Where do we come from and why are we here.

 

[Valjean]

The single concept is that quandary … of origin and purpose. Origin and purpose are a duel concept. Where do we come from and why are we here.

Why would assume there was any "why/'

 

[Dao Hao Now]

The single concept is that quandary … of origin and purpose.

That is in fact 2 concepts;
1 being origin.
1 being purpose.
Each being a separate concept.

I’ll grant you the 2 are often contemplated together, but that doesn’t make them a single question.

The OP being “Who is the creator of this World”
does not address “purpose”.

You have lost the focus of “Who is the creator of this World” and are attempting to supplant the question of…..

Where do we come from and why are we here.

Setting aside the presuppositions of this world being “created” and having a “creator”, @ChristineM pointed out that roughly 3800 “creators” had been posited through the years.

You claimed that there was only one which had been known by “3800 different names for it”, which you claimed was a difference in language.

When it was pointed out that many/most were in fact different concepts that often are contradictory to the others, you equivocated with:

All stem from the same source.

So suddenly it was the question that presumed to be the same.
When pointed out that you were conflating the question with the answer you are now changing the question to origin and purpose.
Do attempt to stay focused.

Back to the question of “who is the creator of this world”, you say;

And yet the mystery of creation remains, as does the mystery of a creator. You can dismiss all the names and images and stories and fantasies, but you can't dismiss the mystery. The questions and the possibilities that they engender stand uneffected. And unanswered.

So, if you accept the presupposition of this world being “created” by a “creator” and depict it as a mystery that is unanswered, how do you claim that all the proposed many contradictory concepts are depictions of a single concept that;

All stem from the same source.

The question you didn’t answer;

So if there's a mystery then no one really knows if there's one creator or many?

And I’ll add to that:
If it’s an unanswered mystery, how do we know it was “created” or there even is a “creator”?

 

[PureX]

Why would assume there was any "why/'

Why would you assume there isn't? Just because you can't fathom it?

It's human nature to imagine the possibilities in the face of the unkniwn, and to wonder about them.

 

[PureX]

That is in fact 2 concepts;
1 being origin.
1 being purpose.
Each being a separate concept.

I’ll grant you the 2 are often contemplated together, but that doesn’t make them a single question.

The OP being “Who is the creator of this World”
does not address “purpose”.

You have lost the focus of “Who is the creator of this World” and are attempting to supplant the question of…..

"Who created the world?" is a stupid question since it presumes a "who" that it can't possibly justify. And I really couldn't care less about any semantic arguments over the conceptual relationship between origin and purpose. Rge fact is that the vast majority of humans ask these question and mostly in conjunction with each other. And then they imagine the various possibilities that come to mind. Why you're trying so hard to debate that not my concern.

Setting aside the presuppositions of this world being “created” and having a “creator”, @ChristineM pointed out that roughly 3800 “creators” had been posited through the years.

And as I pointed out, this is to be expected as the possibilities that we are able to imagine in the face of this mystery are endless.

You claimed that there was only one which had been known by “3800 different names for it”, which you claimed was a difference in language.

No, I claimed that all those possibilties are the result of the same mystery. All those gods are the same god being imagined in all those different ways. In this instance "god" being the term used to refer to the mystery source, sustenance, and purpose of all that is.

So, if you accept the presupposition of this world being “created” by a “creator” and depict it as a mystery that is unanswered, how do you claim that all the proposed many contradictory concepts are depictions of a single concept that;

I have explained this clearly and thoroughly at this point. You obviously don't want to accept my answer.

If it’s an unanswered mystery, how do we know it was “created” or there even is a “creator”?

We don't. But as humans we are designed to ask questions that we are not capable of answering except through the same imagination that drove us to ask them. And this is what makes us unique as existential beings. At least so far as we know.

 

[Valjean]

Why would you assume there isn't? Just because you can't fathom it?

No, I fathom it fine. But the fact is, there's neither reason to expect any existential purpose, nor any objective evidence it exists.
Keep in mind, purpose implies conscious intention and design. There's no objective evidence of any conscious designer, and there are known, automatic mechanisms to explain the appearance of design.

Show me evidence of existential purpose, and I'll accept the premise.

It's human nature to imagine the possibilities in the face of the unkniwn, and to wonder about them.

Yes, people are naturally apophenic. It was a selective feature during most of our history.
Absent understanding, we invent stories to explain the world and ourselves. These are surprisingly robust, and persist despite the fact that we now largely understand how the world works.

 

[Dao Hao Now]

"Who created the world?" is a stupid question since it presumes a "who" that it can't possibly justify.

But, alas, it is the question in the OP that was asked which you apparently felt compelled enough about to lend your attention toward.
It is the question that was answered as having up to 3800 possible answers which you claimed were in fact only one…..

Actually there's only one. There's just 3800 different names for it.

Which you claimed to be just “different names”.
When it was pointed out that;

Nope, definitely more than 1, some worshiped before big G was even though of, some worshiped in places big G never went until fairly recently snd that includes the US.

You doubled down on it being a “language” issue…..to wit:

None of that matters at all. It's just the difference of language. The Tuaregs have a dozen different words for H2O. But it's all still water. We only have a few. And it's still H2O. The labels are not the content.

I pointed this out to you in my post.

You claimed that there was only one which had been known by “3800 different names for it”, which you claimed was a difference in language.

When it was pointed out that many/most were in fact different concepts that often are contradictory to the others, you equivocated with:

Your answer was:

All stem from the same source.

I have explained this clearly and thoroughly at this point. You obviously don't want to accept my answer.

Perhaps in your mind it is clear and thorough, yet I still don’t understand what your answer even is.

So please clarify for me….
When you say “all stem from the same source”;
Are you saying
1.) that all 3800 different “creator gods” posited through history are different answers to the the same question of “who is the creator of this world”….?
Or…
2.) that all 3800 “creator gods” posited through history are in actuality a single god that has been given different names by different peoples and the different concepts of those different peoples were…..what how those different peoples misconstrued that single god?

Since this seems to be an equivocation of the both 1.) and 2.)

No, I claimed that all those possibilties are the result of the same mystery. All those gods are the same god being imagined in all those different ways. In this instance "god" being the term used to refer to the mystery source, sustenance, and purpose of all that is.

 

[justaguy313]

Have you ever asked yourself: “If God is good, why is the world so bad?” If you have, you would not be alone. This question poses, perhaps, the greatest dilemma to all people who believe in a God. In this world, it seems that good is no match for evil.
We have been taught that God is good. Among his attributes are love, harmony, peace and light. The devil, on the other hand, is evil. He is associated with chaos, storms, aggression and darkness. We all know the famous words of Jesus (pbuh) recorded in one of the most famous verses of the new testament, “You have heard it was said, ’Eye for eye, tooth for tooth. But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.” Time and time again, throughout the scriptures, God’s prophets and messengers preach and practice pacifism. And often times, the path of peace leads them straight to their own demise.
Take, for instance, the story of Cain and Abel, the offspring of Adam (pbuh), who carried out the very first standoff of good and evil between two human beings. The natural rivalry of the two brothers came to a head when they both prepared offerings for God. Abel put forth his best, while
Cain did not. Filled with envy, Cain moved towards his brother. Abel, a prophet of God, refused to harm Cain, even in self-defense and so this pure soul was slain at the hands of his wicked brother.
Against the power and aggression of evil, goodness stands no chance. And when you look at the state of the world today, this fact is apparent.
In this world, evil is king. Look at those who hold the seats of power. They clutch the world in their tyrannical fists and spread their evil agenda everywhere. But wait a minute...haven’t we already been told many times that this world is not a good place? Nearly every established religion
in the world teaches that the material world is a place of suffering - a testing ground which one must pass through successfully in order to reach paradise.
Prophet Muhammad (pbuhahf) said: “Verily, Allah Almighty has not created a creation more hated to him than the world, and He has not looked at it since He created it.” This curious statement might make you wonder: “who is in control of this world?”

The image of Baphomet has graced everything from heavy metal album covers to religious propaganda. Baphomet is used as a stand-in for Satan. And yet Baphomet is a far, far more complex symbol. The head that sits on top of his hermaphroditic body is a Goat. GOAT is an acronym for “God of All Things,” the key word being things. For he created all material things.

Everything in this world has an opposite. Baphomet is no exception. Just as we have Christ and the anti-christ, we also have Muhammed and Baphomet, who is the anti-Muhammed. In fact, the name Baphomet is an Old French variation of Mahomet, a reference to the Prophet of Islam.
Baphomet is hidden all over the place, glorified in media and entertainment. And, as it turns out, this world is his domain and we are all living in it. But how did this happen? In order to answer this question, we must go back to the very beginning. Satan did not start out on the side of evil. In fact, according to scripture, at one point Satan was one of the highest ranking worshippers of God.
Although he is not an angel, Satan once lived amongst the angels in paradise. He he resembled them and performed their deeds. And because God rewards a lot for a little, Satan quickly ascended through the ranks. His devotion and beauty earned him the nickname, “the peacock angel.” Today he is more widely known as the fallen angel due to his fall from grace, a nickname which stems from his former rank.

 

[wellwisher]

justaguy313 said:
From the Holy Bible:

"Be sober and be vigilant, because your adversary, the devil,
like a roaring lion he walks and seeks someone to devour"
(1 Peter 5:8)

"I won't talk much with you anymore; because the prince of this world is coming, and there is nothing in me." (John 14:30)

"Now is the judgment of this world; now the prince of this world will be cast out." (John 12:31)


The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.(2 Corinthians 4:4)

IMFOP In Christianity there is only (1) God. The devil was a son of God who went rogue.

Peter calls Satan the Prince of the World. Satan was put in charge of the Earth after the fall from paradise. Satan does not lose his credentials, as Prince of the Earth until Revelations, when he is thrown from heaven with his army, by Michael the Archangel. Up to then, his role as Prince of the World is sanctioned by Heaven.

Revelations 12:7; Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven.9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Satan had been put in charge of humans after the fall from paradise. Adam and Eve chose the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil; Satan's tree, and fell into Satan's hands. The "God" of the Old Testament was not exactly God, but his message had been given to the humans through an intermediary; Satan.

God did not want Adam and Eve to choose law, He crested a prohibition against eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil; law. God wanted them to choose the tree of life; natural human instinct and intuition. Having chosen law, humans were given Satan to lead them. God was not Going to lead tainted creation. Satan was sanctioned by God and Heaven at that time, with the will of God; chairman of the board, improvised by Satan his CEO, as the Prince of the earth. Like in business, the Board has basic goals, while the CEO is allowed freedom and his own style to achieve those goals.

When Jesus said he came to fulfill the law, this was about doing away with the Satan CEO, who made the law tainted doing it his way. Revelations 12; Satan is given the boot, so the law could become clean, due to Jesus replacing Satan as CEO; spirit of love. The Jews past, present and future, are never safe, because what they believe was not pure from God, since it had some Satan twist to it. Safety is possible but it needs an update.

If you read the Old Testament, Israel often goes into exile and has various siege problems. The only time of peace and safety was during King Solomon. These problems were created by CEO Satan, since Satan, as the Prince of the World, was not just about God's laws, since he was also in charge of the entire world and all the cultures; money, prestige and the power of kingdoms. It was the cross contamination of Satan, into other aspects of his divine being, that made it hard to follow a path to safety; deceives the world.

This can all be inferred if you assume on the seventh day of creation, God rested. Others were out in charge while he rested since creation was pretty much self sufficient. However, those pesky humans had will and choice, with Satan in charge of the humans and the earth. Satan in charge, explains why the God of the Old Testaments appears to be angry and often cruel; not one of love. That was not God the Father, but noice from Satan his CEO, trying his best to meet the goals and deadlines, but making things worse, until he was fired.

 

[PureX]

But, alas, it is the question in the OP that was asked which you apparently felt compelled enough about to lend your attention toward.
It is the question that was answered as having up to 3800 possible answers which you claimed were in fact only one…..

A question asked in ignorance and supported by bias on both sides.

Atheists work hard at keeping this issue of the multiplicity of labels and characterizations in the forefront, just as you are doing, because they have no way of countering the fundamental human desire to know our own origin and purpose, the lack of which drives us to invent all those labels and characterizations and imaginary possibilities.

Which you claimed to be just “different names”.
When it was pointed out that;

You doubled down on it being a “language” issue…..to wit:

I pointed this out to you in my post.

Your answer was:


Perhaps in your mind it is clear and thorough, yet I still don’t understand what your answer even is.

So please clarify for me….
When you say “all stem from the same source”;
Are you saying
1.) that all 3800 different “creator gods” posited through history are different answers to the the same question of “who is the creator of this world”….?
Or…
2.) that all 3800 “creator gods” posited through history are in actuality a single god that has been given different names by different peoples and the different concepts of those different peoples were…..what how those different peoples misconstrued that single god?

Since this seems to be an equivocation of the both 1.) and 2.)

 

[Audie]

It depends of which Christian denomination you speak of. In my humble opinon Christianity was hijacked long time ago.

Lucifer was a jinn, who was raised to the highest rank of angels. He fell because he didn't want to prostrate to Adam a.s. and later deceived him in the Garden of Eden.

So you think there is a true but lost relihion?

 

[justaguy313]

So you think there is a true but lost relihion?

Offcourse christianity was true religion, gnostics for sure knew about it, before Roman catholic church proclaimed them for heretics.

Thanks to the shepherd who found Nag Hammadi scrolls in Egypt in the year 1945 and decipherers who deciphered them, today we know all about it.

The 5th covenant, which Jesus established, went to the Ishmaelites. They became God’s chosen people. From there on God sent more and more prophets to the Arabs – ending with Muhammad.

But the Arabs followed the footsteps of the Christians and the Jews, and broke the Jesuit Covenant.

Their punishment came along with Abraha, the Christian Governor of the Abyssinian King, who marched upon Mecca with a huge army of elephants, in the birth year of Muhammad. But God sent a flock of birds dropping fiery stones wiping out everyone present there.

 

[Audie]

Offcourse christianity was true religion, gnostics for sure knew about it, before Roman catholic church proclaimed them for heretics.

Thanks to the shepherd who found Nag Hammadi scrolls in Egypt in the year 1945 and decipherers who deciphered them, today we know all about it.

 

[Colt]

Peter calls Satan the Prince of the World. Satan was put in charge of the Earth after the fall from paradise. Satan does not lose his credentials, as Prince of the Earth until Revelations, when he is thrown from heaven with his army, by Michael the Archangel. Up to then, his role as Prince of the World is sanctioned by Heaven.

Revelations 12:7; Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven.9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Satan had been put in charge of humans after the fall from paradise. Adam and Eve chose the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil; Satan's tree, and fell into Satan's hands. The "God" of the Old Testament was not exactly God, but his message had been given to the humans through an intermediary; Satan.

God did not want Adam and Eve to choose law, He crested a prohibition against eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil; law. God wanted them to choose the tree of life; natural human instinct and intuition. Having chosen law, humans were given Satan to lead them. God was not Going to lead tainted creation. Satan was sanctioned by God and Heaven at that time, with the will of God; chairman of the board, improvised by Satan his CEO, as the Prince of the earth. Like in business, the Board has basic goals, while the CEO is allowed freedom and his own style to achieve those goals.

When Jesus said he came to fulfill the law, this was about doing away with the Satan CEO, who made the law tainted doing it his way. Revelations 12; Satan is given the boot, so the law could become clean, due to Jesus replacing Satan as CEO; spirit of love. The Jews past, present and future, are never safe, because what they believe was not pure from God, since it had some Satan twist to it. Safety is possible but it needs an update.

If you read the Old Testament, Israel often goes into exile and has various siege problems. The only time of peace and safety was during King Solomon. These problems were created by CEO Satan, since Satan, as the Prince of the World, was not just about God's laws, since he was also in charge of the entire world and all the cultures; money, prestige and the power of kingdoms. It was the cross contamination of Satan, into other aspects of his divine being, that made it hard to follow a path to safety; deceives the world.

This can all be inferred if you assume on the seventh day of creation, God rested. Others were out in charge while he rested since creation was pretty much self sufficient. However, those pesky humans had will and choice, with Satan in charge of the humans and the earth. Satan in charge, explains why the God of the Old Testaments appears to be angry and often cruel; not one of love. That was not God the Father, but noice from Satan his CEO, trying his best to meet the goals and deadlines, but making things worse, until he was fired.

There was a prince who fell before Adam and Eve arrived. He was the "crafty beast". But never a God. He was delusional to think that he could ever be a God.

The war in heaven is a retrospective, its about the fall which Jesus finally terminated while on earth.

 

[Dao Hao Now]

A question asked in ignorance and supported by bias on both sides.

Yet it is the question asked in headline of the OP which you deemed worthy of your attention.

It is the question that was answered as having up to 3800 possible answers which you claimed were in fact only one, which you claimed to be “just different names”, and subsequently doubled down on it being a “language” issue.

This being previous to your conflating the question with the answer……

Because it's a single idea/question. The idea/question of a creator-God. Humans all over the world and across time have all comprehended the same idea/question. And then imagined the many possibilities that inspired. Thus, all the different images and names and stories and fantasies. But they're all inspired by the same mystery. A mystery that we still cannot resolve.

Then subsequently attempting to reframe the question:

The single concept is that quandary … of origin and purpose.

And now you endeavor to chastise atheists for having the ability to focus on the actual question in the OP rather than accept your moved goal post.

Atheists work hard at keeping this issue of the multiplicity of labels and characterizations in the forefront

Rational people don’t need to “work hard” at pointing this out….it’s blatantly self evident.
However what rational people don’t do is ignore it or attempt to apply a “pretzel logic” to it to appease their preconceptions.

Your conflation of the question with the answer was once again presented:

I claimed that all those possibilties are the result of the same mystery. All those gods are the same god being imagined in all those different ways. In this instance "god" being the term used to refer to the mystery source, sustenance, and purpose of all that is.

Which you asserted to explain your point “clearly and thoroughly”.

My reply being:

Perhaps in your mind it is clear and thorough, yet I still don’t understand what your answer even is.

So, once again please clarify for me….
When you say “all stem from the same source”;
Are you saying
1.) that all 3800 different “creator gods” posited through history are different answers to the the same question of “who is the creator of this world”….?
Or…
2.) that all 3800 “creator gods” posited through history are in actuality a single god that has been given different names by different peoples and the different concepts of those different peoples were…..what how those different peoples misconstrued that single god?