Who IS "The Only TRUE God"- as Jesus put it?

[smokydot]

Well, probably not in small doses. However, "God With Us" is no small dose. God becoming Incarnate is salvation writ large.
Also, you will note that unleavened bread is used ritually (I believe).

Actually it was. It was one of the seven feasts, called The Feast of Unleavened Bread. It occured the day after Passover, to commemorate the Exodus.
All leaven had to be removed from their homes for the feast. . .symbolizing the purging of sin from their lives.

This may be because they knew of the poisonous properties of leaven, but you'd have to ask a Jewish historian/anthropologist about that particular thing.
"Correct" interpretation is a pretty amorphous thing. The texts are eminently polyvalent. However, proper exegesis, by which a viable interpretation may be informed is important. By applying the exegetical process through anthropolgy, we discover the poisonous nature of leaven and can then interpret the text according to what we know about the scenario.

Let me suggest an interpretation more in keeping with the context of the parable and with the common daily use of leaven in bread, indicating that it was not harmful.
While leaven is usually a symbol of evil, corruption or uncleanness in the Bible (as in the Feast of Unleavened Bread), in the context of Lk 13:18-20 leaven is used, along with the mustard seed, as a symbol of growth. It illustrates the growth of the kingdom within one, from a small beginning to a powerful influence in one's life. As leaven permeates a batch of dough, leavening the whole lump, so the inner working of the Holy Spirit (through God's word) spreads throughout a person's life.
This interpretation doesn't require that leaven be poisonous (which it is not), and it fits perfectly in the context of the parable.

 

[smokydot]

:angel2: Maybe our creator is not the perfection some want to portray.

Well, that depends on whose standards we are using--the Creator who makes the rules, or the creatures who are subject to Him.

 

[AK4]

Is there more mentions of the holy spirit as to what it is?

I get what you mean by third person, "taken into account", but yeah its not sound to just leave the holy spirit out unless there is something behind it from the last writtings. I would have to read more on what your asking to give a more definitve answer. Still newbie on reading this and obviously asking question that have gone over. :foot:

Still your question needs an answer.

Unless the holy spirit has been left out on account it was all ready mentioned before hand than it would have to do with different accounts on scriptures or its believed something other than; as to god and the holy spirit being one and the same.

What do you think?

Its late right now for me and im just trying to kill time but here is the answer--- the holy spirit is Jesus, not because i said so but because that is what the scriptures show. Look in 1st or 2nd John and and look in one of the gospels [sorry im tired and sleepy so im not going to do it for you right now] but the greek word is parakletos and that is used to say it is the Comforter or whatever translation you read but the Comforter is Jesus. Sorry im tired and cant go into further detail.

Basically it would have been redundant for someone like Paul to say "one God the Father, one Lord Jesus and then say who is the holy spirit". Think about it---in 13 epistles Paul opens letters saying "peace be unto you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ". Why doesnt he mention [if anyone was to believe as a trinitarian} the holy spirit---in 13 letters? Was Paul a heretic? Did Paul forget that God was a trinity and forget to mention the holy spirit in 13 letters?

Here since im fallen asleep i will copy and paste something for you from the site i gave you earlier

Jesus Christ and His Father ARE ONE! What does that mean? Has God not given us other examples of how two can be ONE? A husband and wife in union ARE ONE, yet they are individuals. The Son is the VISIBLE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD. That is Scriptural. God manifested HIMSELF to His Creation SONWISE or SONLY. The Son can be seen, the Father CANNOT BE SEEN. John tells us that we will see Jesus AS HE IS. I know of NO Scripture that tells us that we will ever see the Father (do you?). We pray TO the Father IN THE NAME OF Jesus Christ, through the spirit OF God--Both the Father and the Son have the SAME SPIRIT! That the KJV uses the personal pronoun "he" is hardly justification for making the Holy Spirit the third member of triune God.

The relationship between the Son and the Father are mentioned over and over and over again in the Scriptures. NOT ONCE do the Scriptures speak of a relationship between the Son and the Father and The Holy Spirit.

I have little interest in the trinity theory. I merely wrote a paper on it because people often ask. The one negative I do see in the theory, however, is that a trinity is in effect a "closed Godhead." Yet, the Scriptures plainly tell us that WE TOO CAN BECOME MEMBERS OF THE VERY FAMILY (not trinity) OF GOD. If we could become members of the 'trinity' then by the very nature of words and their meanings, the trinity WOULD CEASE TO EXIST! Think about it.

We too, mankind, also, like God, have a spirit. Our spirit, however, is NOT A SECOND PERSON! If I am with you 'in spirit' then I AM WITH YOU. My spirit is NOT SOMEONE ELSE! Nor is it an ADDITION to me. Without MY spirit I would not exist. Without GOD'S spirit, GOD WOULD CEASE TO EXIST--GOD IS SPIRIT!!! God communicates and operates throughout the whole universe by HIS spirit. We TOO partake of this same spirit, but not through a third person of a trinity.

Jesus Christ told His disciples before His departure:

"Now, whenever the consoler [Gk: 'parakletos '= BESIDE - CALLer] which I shall be sending you [notice that Christ is the Sender, but FROM the Father], that will be testifying concerning Me" (John 15:26).

Now notice this:

"But I am telling you the truth. It is expedient for you that I may be coming away, for if I should not be coming away, THE CONSOLER WILL NOT BE COMING TO YOU." (John 16:7).

Why? If the Holy Spirit as a third person of a triune trinity is what God's spirit really is, then WHY would Jesus have to depart before IT could come if IT is a separate individual FORM Jesus?

What or Who is this "comforter?" Is it the third personality of a triune God? Let's read it:

"Yet whenever that may be coming--the spirit OF truth [Christ is TRUTH. He said "I am THE TRUTH"]..." (John 16:13).

"That will be glorifying Me, seeing that OF MINE will it be getting, and informing you. All, whatever the Father has, is Mine. THEREFORE I said to you that OF MINE is it getting, and will be informing you" (John 16:14-15).

Whatever is coming to comfort His Apostles after He is gone is something that is OF CHRIST that the Father GAVE TO HIM. Did the Father give to Christ the third person of the trinity???

Now John 16:27-28 from the Concordant Literal New Testament:

"...seeing that you are fond of Me, and have believed that I CAME OUT FROM GOD [out from beside God]. I CAME OUT FROM the Father and have come into the world. Again, I am LEAVING THE WORLD and am going TO THE FATHER."

After Pentecost the apostles never saw Jesus again in THE FLESH. And therefore Paul plainly informs us that:

"Yet even if we have known Christ ACCORDING TO FLESH, nevertheless now we KNOW HIM SO NO LONGER. So that, if anyone is IN CHRIST, there is a new creation..." (II Cor. 5:16-17).

Back to John:

"Remain IN ME. I also AM IN YOU...He who is remaining IN ME, and I IN HIM..." (John 15:4-5).

We are IN Christ and Christ is IN us. Next:

"If anyone should be loving Me, he will be keeping My word, and My Father will be loving him, and WE SHALL BE COMING TO HIM AND MAKING AN ABODE WITH HIM" (John 14:23).

And the Father ALSO will make His abode WITH US. How is this done? By the third person of the trinity? No. Christ said HE would be in us. And Christ said the Father would be also. But specifically HOW? And why must Jesus go away first?

Remember that Paul said we no longer know Christ according to the flesh. And Christ never appeared to the Apostles after Pentecost IN THE FLESH. Christ went back to the Father, but He said He would not leave us comfortless, but that He would send a comforter. He also said that it would be the "spirit of truth" and that it came TO Christ from the Father and now it IS CHRIST'S to do as He will with it.

Then who or what is this comforter, this 'parakletos'? God's Word tells us. John is the only writer who uses this word 'parakletos.' So where else does he use it? I John 2:1:

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate [Greek: PARAKLETOS!!!] with the Father, JESUS CHRIST the Righteous" (I John 2:1)!!!

There it is! Jesus Christ IS THE COMFORTER. Jesus Christ IS THE PARAKLETOS!

When we receive the Comforter it is CHRIST, IN SPIRIT [no longer according to the flesh]! IT IS CHRIST THAT COMFORTERS US THROUGH HIS SPIRIT WHICH JOHN PLAINLY TELLS US HE RECEIVED FROM HIS GOD AND FATHER! It is THEIR [the Son's and the Father's] SPIRIT that comes in us! No trinity here! No trinity anywhere!

"Hereby know ye the SPIRIT OF GOD: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is COME IN THE FLESH is of God" (I John 4:2).

"Hereby know we that WE DWELL IN HIM, and HE IN US, because He hath given us OF [genitive--OF] His spirit" (Verse 13).

It is JESUS CHRIST Who comes IN OUR FLESH. To deny that it is JESUS CHRIST Who comes in our flesh is the spirit of ANTICHRIST.

CHRIST is our comforter. CHRIST leads us into all Truth. It is CHRIST in us the hope of glory. CHRIST is the parakletos. And this is all accomplished by the spirit OF God which the Father gave also to Christ and so we have the spirit of both the Son and the Father making its home IN US, not a third person of a fabled trinity!

OF COURSE Jesus Christ is God. He is the VERY IMAGE, THE EXPRESS IMAGE, OF THE INVISIBLE GOD HIMSELF--and that makes Christ GOD. And Jesus and His Father ARE ONE and they operate through ONE SPIRIT--THEIR spirit, not some OTHER person of a trinity.

 

[AK4]

continued:

"I and the Father, We are ONE" (John 10:30).

Let me be perfectly clear, logical, and Scriptural on this matter:

One plus one plus one DOES NOT equal one!

One God plus one God plus one God DOES NOT equal one God!

One third of a God plus one third of a God plus one third of a God DOES NOT equal one whole God!

The Holy Spirit of God cannot also be that same God! ANYTHING that is either "from" or "of" something ELSE cannot also "BE" that something else no matter what or who it is!

A "Father" and a "Son" CANNOT ALSO BE THE SAME PERSON!

Countless things can be said to "be ONE" in numerous forms of close relationship. In this close relationship of purpose, will, harmony, etc., our Lord said:

"I and the Father, We are ONE" (John 10:30).

Will all my readers please note that Jesus DID NOT say "I and the Father, We are one GOD," did He? No, He did not!

Do the Scriptures, however, tell us that there is only ONE GOD? Yes, they do.

Do the Scriptures, tell us WHO that ONE God is? Yes, they do.

Do the Scriptures tell us what the relationship of Jesus Christ is with that ONE God? Yes, they do.

In fact, all of these things are answered in ONE Scripture.

I will now give you the ONLY Scripture you will EVER need for understanding Who Jesus Christ and God the Father are and how many Gods there are, and Who composes that ONE God. Here it is:

"For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords, nevertheless for US there is ONE God, the FATHER, out of Whom ALL IS, and we for Him, and ONE LORD, JESUS CHRIST, through Whom all is, and we through Him" (I Cor. 8:5-6).

And the next verse says

"But NOT IN ALL is there this knowledge" (Ver. 7)

I can say "Amen" to that. Practically "not in all" Christendom is there this knowledge.

If you have not yet THANKED GOD for making these things so clear, so meaningful, and so simple, DO IT NOW!

The above verse really doesn’t need commentary, but I want to comment anyway.

How many Gods are there? Answer: "ONE God."

Of Whom is this ONE God composed? Answer: "the FATHER." NOT, the Father, AND the Son, AND the holy ghost! Just, "the Father!" ONLY, "the Father!!" "ONE God, the FATHER!"

Is this too hard for anyone? Is not God’s definition far easier and better than the theologians’ "one, plus ONE, plus ONE, equals ONE" nonsense?

Is Jesus Christ an equal part of this "ONE God?" NO, He is not. Let God’s Word tell us. We don’t need to speculate and theorize. Here is Who and What Jesus Christ is, He is the "one LORD." This is not hard. It is only hard for those who wrestle and twist Scripture to their own destruction (II Peter 3:16). John 8:5-6 makes the following very clear:

This Scripture tells us that "ALL IS OUT OF" GOD (the FATHER).

And this Scripture tells us that "ALL IS THROUGH" Jesus Christ.

God the Father is the first cause of all and ALL IS OUT GOD, even Jesus Christ is "OUT of God."

"...I [Jesus] came OUT from God. I CAME OUT FROM the FATHER..." (John 16:27-28).

Now if Jesus came out from the trinity, why doesn’t the Scripture say so? He didn’t come out of the trinity and He didn’t come out of the holy spirit, but HE DID COME, "...OUT FROM THE FATHER!"

And after Jesus Christ came OUT from the Father, ALL ELSE came THROUGH Jesus Christ:

"Who [Jesus Christ] is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature, for in Him is ALL CREATED, that in the heavens and that on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created THROUGH Him and FOR Him, and He is BEFORE all, and all has its cohesion in Him" (Col. 1: 14-17).

Nowhere do we read that God came out from Christ! No, Christ came OUT FROM THE FATHER and all else was created THROUGH Jesus Christ. There is no trinity here!

Jesus Christ is not the SUPREME DEITY. Christ is not the originator of all. Christ is "the Lord." He is the Son of God. He is the IMAGE of the invisible God. He is the Mediator,

For there is ONE God, and ONE Mediator OF God and mankind, a MAN Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).

As I said before, one cannot be both "of" something or someone and at the same time "be" that something or someone. There is certainly no trilateral, triune, trinity of God here!

Jesus Christ said,

"...I am going to the Father, for the Father is GREATER than I" (John 14:28).

Where do we read that Christ is GREATER than the Father? There is no trinity in this verse!

And again:

"Now, whenever ALL may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself [Jesus Christ] also SHALL BE SUBJECTED TO HIM [God the Father] Who subjects all to Him, that GOD may be All in all."

Where do we read that someday God the Father will be SUBJECT to Christ? There is no trinity in these Biblical truths.

And again:

"Now I want you to be aware that the Head of every man is Christ, yet the head of the woman is the man, yet the Head of Christ IS GOD" (I Cor. 11:3).

Where do we read in Scripture that Christ is the Head of God?

There is another profound statement in the Scriptures that PROVES CONCLUSIVELY that Jesus Christ is not part of a trinity, but is now and always will be, under the Headship of His Father. Here it is:

"...that the GOD OF OUR LORD Jesus Christ, the FATHER..." (Eph. 1:17).

There it is--Jesus Christ HAS A "GOD!" Paul wrote this and all of the above Scriptures AFTER Jesus Christ was resurrected and restored to His previous GLORIES in God. And in His glorified state, Jesus Christ is STILL subjected to HIS GOD! Who wants to be the first blasphemer to even suggest that God the Father "has a God?"!!! But Jesus Christ, DOES have a God! Notice the following:

Eph. 1:3: "Blessed be the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"

Col. 1:3: "We are thanking the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"

I Pet. 1:3: "Blessed be the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"

And remember these statements concerning Jesus Christ "having a God" were made long after His resurrection and restoration back to His former glories. Today, our Lord STILL HAS A GOD! And need I repeat the fact that the God and Father of Jesus Christ DOES NOT HAVE A GOD?! And someone out there still thinks God is a equilateral trinity?

There are many more Scriptures that show the distinction between God the Father’s office of supreme deity of the universe and that of His Son and Image, Jesus Christ the Lord and Mediator.

 

[sojourner]

Do you realise the trinity doctrine denies Jesus? It calls Him a liar and that those who believe in it--thier faith is futile and worthless? This is not my opinion either, this is what the scripture say.

In what way does Trinitarian doctrine "deny Jesus?" Perhaps you'd be so kind as to provide the reference of what the scripture says, so that we can all look at it?
I believe in the Trinity, and so do many other folks I know. somehow, I don't think my faith is either "futile" nor "worthless." Further I don't think you're in any position, either by relationship or understanding, to make that call.

Thank you for your support.

 

[sojourner]

Show me ONE scripture that says God is a person. You cant!!:no:

First of all, I don't have to "show you a scripture." That would only be necessary if I bought into the fallacy of sola scriptura, which, as I have asserted time and again, I do not. I will not argue doctrine on that basis.

Second, you're arguing semantics. If God is said to speak to us, to have a mind, to display human emotions, to "walk in the garden," then God is conceptualized as a person, whether it is explicitly worded that way or not. God's Personhood is implicit.

 

[sojourner]

Sorry I dont do that. I show people where they can actually find truth and they can make up their own minds if they believe the scriptures or not. I dont parrot the same stupid superstitions and lies and myths and fables that all those that are still in MYSTERY BABYLON the Great also known as in scripture as those who have fallen away. Think about it, who is able to fall away from the truth? Athiest? Muslims? Hindus? Satanists? No, the scriptures are for believers. The NT is for the church. The church calls themselves christians. And the scriptures repeatedly say that THIS CHURCH has fallen away and God commands in Revelation to "Come out of her My people". Oh but the church teaches that God is telling the Athiest, Muslims, Hindus, Satanists, etc etc to come out. Good grief

Hmmm...
"Follow me the PM section, and I'll show you where you can find the truth" isn't proselytizing?

You can think orthodox Xy is wrong, or apostate, or misguided all you want to -- and that's your privilege to do. I and many others would take serious issue with the stance posited here, but that's for another thread. However, there is a difference between simply disagreeing with a POV and telling someone, "PSSST! ... Hey! Come on over here to this secret place and I'll provide you with the real truth!"

 

[sojourner]

Again, show me ONE SCRIPTURE that says God is a person. Especially three persons in one.

Second verse...
same as the first.

The song was meaningless the first time.:cover:

 

[Youtellme]

Second verse...
same as the first.

The song was meaningless the first time.:cover:

Hi, I'm new to this thread and haven't read it all, and this isn't in reply to your last comments but I was wondering what you thoughts are on the part where Jesus was dying and said: Father, why have you forsaken me?
Who was he talking to?

 

[sojourner]

HASTINGS Dictionary of the Bible by Schribners.

quote from page 1015 under the topic:

"THE TRINITY--The Christian doctrine of God (q.v.) as existing in three Persons and one Substance is NOT DEMONSTRABLE BY LOGIC OR BY SCRIPTURAL PROOFS..."

Yeah, well. The statement in all-caps demonstrates a decidedly sola scriptura stance, as well as a decidedly literalistic viewpoint of scriptural treatment. since neither one represents the historic and traditional treatment of scripture, we need pay no attention to it.

From the Westminster Dictionary of Theological Terms (Westminster John Knox Press, 1996):

Trinity, doctrine of the (From Lat. trinitas, "triad") The Christian church's belief that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three Persons in one Godhead. They share the same essence or substance (Gr. homoousios). Yet they are three "persons" (Lat. personae). God is this way within the Godhead and as known in Christian experience.

Trinity, essential The church's doctrine of the Trinity, that God is a trinity in unity and a unity in trinity. God as three in one is experienced by humans as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The three Persons of the Trinity share the same essence and relate to one another in love.

The first reference is simply dismissive of the doctrine (not surprising). The second respects it as the consensus of the Church (also not surprising). Personally, I find the second much more useful inasmuch as it at least seeks to engage the subject, rather than simply brush it off.

 

[Youtellme]

Yeah, well. The statement in all-caps demonstrates a decidedly sola scriptura stance, as well as a decidedly literalistic viewpoint of scriptural treatment.

Since you don't accept the notion of sola scriptura, why do you accept the teaching of the trinity if it is based on scripture? Do you have a pic and mix view of the Bible?

 

[sojourner]

If you go bythe trinity doctrine though you are right that somehow we are in a person. Kinda hard to believe aint it?

are you saying that a spirit cannot be a person -- and that a person cannot be a spirit? When the disciples in the boat saw Jesus walking on the water, but didn't recognize him, they most certainly thought that a spirit was a person. When Jesus came through the locked door after his resurrection and disappeared from the disciples' sight in Emmaus, they certainly thought a person could be a spirit.

Kinda hard to believe, ain't it!

 

[sojourner]

Oh how true that last verse is regarding trinitarians?

"Pot, meet Kettle..."

Question: We have one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ, so if there is a "third person to the trinity" where is it in this scripture? Did Paul forget about the holy spirit?

Ridiculous aint it?

Are you now saying that the Holy Spirit doesn't exist because Paul neglects to mention it in this one passage?

Ridiculous, ain't it!

 

[sojourner]

See Jesus was said to be the vessel for god and that god from my understanding is supposibly born unto Jesus. That sounds like a conception. Putting of oneself into apart of oneself is a conception or seed. That would mean that god is female!

It could also because of the mention of Jesus being reborn, that god is actually both genders or like a singlar. A singlar that can alter itself, mutiply and divide.

Hint: Allegory... metaphor... poetry...
This is a theological, not a scientific understanding of how God comes to be one of us. If you seek to explain the scientific properties of paint, light, color, and vision, you'll miss out on the true meaning, beauty and reason for the artwork.

 

[Youtellme]

"Pot, meet Kettle..."

Are you now saying that the Holy Spirit doesn't exist because Paul neglects to mention it in this one passage?

Ridiculous, ain't it!

Sorry to butt in but he's not the only one not to mention it. Every single vision of heaven never mentions a spirit standing to the left side of God. Actually, come to think of that, why would they say that the Lamp was stood to the right of God, if God was also the lamb??

 

[sojourner]

Webster: judgment - a calamity regarded as sent by God, by way of punishment

It is common Christian parlance: see Nu 33:4.



I take it you aren't referring to the OT where many of God's punishments are recorded.
We see punishment in 1 Co 11:29-30, right?

I'm referring to any place where God judges us.

No, in I Cor. 11:29-30 we see consequences of our own actions, and the consequences of God's grace.

If Judgment = punishment, then in what way can any of us escape hell? We all come before God upon death to be judged -- righteous and unrighteous alike. If all God's judgments = God's punishments, everyone -- including the righteous -- will be punished, no?
:thud:

 

[sojourner]

Actually it was. It was one of the seven feasts, called The Feast of Unleavened Bread. It occured the day after Passover, to commemorate the Exodus.
All leaven had to be removed from their homes for the feast. . .symbolizing the purging of sin from their lives.
Let me suggest an interpretation more in keeping with the context of the parable and with the common daily use of leaven in bread, indicating that it was not harmful.
While leaven is usually a symbol of evil, corruption or uncleanness in the Bible (as in the Feast of Unleavened Bread), in the context of Lk 13:18-20 leaven is used, along with the mustard seed, as a symbol of growth. It illustrates the growth of the kingdom within one, from a small beginning to a powerful influence in one's life. As leaven permeates a batch of dough, leavening the whole lump, so the inner working of the Holy Spirit (through God's word) spreads throughout a person's life.
This interpretation doesn't require that leaven be poisonous (which it is not), and it fits perfectly in the context of the parable.

well, regardless of what you may think, leaven is poisonous. Why do you think it was a symbol of corruption or uncleanliness??? Because it was corrupt and unclean!

Yes! The Holy Spirit does spread throughout a person's life, "poisoning" and "killing off" the old self, replacing it with new life.

 

[sojourner]

the holy spirit is Jesus, not because i said so but because that is what the scriptures show. Look in 1st or 2nd John and and look in one of the gospels [sorry im tired and sleepy so im not going to do it for you right now] but the greek word is parakletos and that is used to say it is the Comforter or whatever translation you read but the Comforter is Jesus.

Παράκλητος is paraclete, translated as "encourager" or "comforter." In John 14:16, Jesus (in talking about going away from them) says that he will ask the Father, and he (Father) "will give you another paraclete to be with you..." then, in John 14:26, Jesus says, "...the paraclete, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name..."

It is clear from these two passages that the paraclete is the Holy Spirit, and that the Holy Spirit is an entity other than Jesus, himself, but is still some Divine Presence.

 

[sojourner]

Hi, I'm new to this thread and haven't read it all, and this isn't in reply to your last comments but I was wondering what you thoughts are on the part where Jesus was dying and said: Father, why have you forsaken me?
Who was he talking to?

The quotation is a direct quotation of Psalm 22 "My God, my God! Why have you forsaken me?"

Since Jesus is also fully human, Jesus could speak to God (Father) in such a way, just as any of us are able to.

 

[sojourner]

Since you don't accept the notion of sola scriptura, why do you accept the teaching of the trinity if it is based on scripture? Do you have a pic and mix view of the Bible?

sola scriptura is "Bible only." I do not take that stance. Trinity is implied, although not particularly explicit in scripture. It is fleshed out in the extra-Biblical tradition of the Church. Since faith stands on a tripod of scripture, tradition, and reason, it is the use of all of them that determine my belief -- not just scripture, or sola scriptura.