Who IS "The Only TRUE God"- as Jesus put it?

[Youtellme]

The quotation is a direct quotation of Psalm 22 "My God, my God! Why have you forsaken me?"

I know it is.

Since Jesus is also fully human, Jesus could speak to God (Father) in such a way, just as any of us are able to.

Yes, but I am not God. I am seperate to him, just as Jesus was when he was human. And why would Jesus ask that question if he was God, knowing the answer.
The same Goes for his praying. He prayed not to himself but to his God. And when he didn't he ask if the cup could be removed then let that happen, but let not his will take place but the will of the father? How could he, why would he, possibly ask for such a thing if he had the power to remove the cup anyway? I don't understand how you can read another meaning into such accounts.

 

[Youtellme]

sola scriptura is "Bible only." I do not take that stance. Trinity is implied, although not particularly explicit in scripture. It is fleshed out in the extra-Biblical tradition of the Church.

Correct, in fact, and I'm sure you know that it was formed centuries after the death of the last apostle. It is wrong to create a teaching and to claim to it is a Bible based teaching when it quite clearly isn't and to override what the scriptures say and put man made tradition ahead of God's word.

Since faith stands on a tripod of scripture, tradition, and reason, it is the use of all of them that determine my belief -- not just scripture, or sola scriptura.

But didn't warn the religious leaders of his day not to replace the scriptures with the traditions of men?

 

[sojourner]

I said,

The quotation is a direct quotation of Psalm 22 "My God, my God! Why have you forsaken me?"

You answered,

I know it is.

So, the logical conclusion is that Jesus was directly quoting scripture. Lots of people do that when in trouble. A perfectly normal thing to do. Further, we can surmise that the gospel writer had Jesus say this to drive home the point that he identified himself as Messiah -- a Divine character.

The same Goes for his praying. He prayed not to himself but to his God. And when he didn't he ask if the cup could be removed then let that happen, but let not his will take place but the will of the father? How could he, why would he, possibly ask for such a thing if he had the power to remove the cup anyway? I don't understand how you can read another meaning into such accounts.

That's why this is a mystery. If Jesus is fully human, like you and me, he, like us, would pray to God, no? We don't know the intricacies of how being both fully human and fully Divine works out. I don't understand why you think you need pat answers to things that are obviously beyond comprehension.

 

[Youtellme]

That's why this is a mystery. If Jesus is fully human, like you and me, he, like us, would pray to God, no? We don't know the intricacies of how being both fully human and fully Divine works out. I don't understand why you think you need pat answers to things that are obviously beyond comprehension.

What does John 17:3 say? If our everlasting life depends on our taking in knowledge of God and his son then surly it would not be a mystery but accurate knowledge.

 

[sojourner]

Correct, in fact, and I'm sure you know that it was formed centuries after the death of the last apostle. It is wrong to create a teaching and to claim to it is a Bible based teaching when it quite clearly isn't and to override what the scriptures say and put man made tradition ahead of God's word.

There are several problems at work in this post. First, the doctrine was fleshed out at Nicea in 325. However, there was always some kind of understanding of Jesus as Divine. As I pointed out and you corroborated, the understanding is implied in scripture.

Second, the teaching wasn't "created" out of whole cloth by later folks. It was discerned very early and then developed over time by the rightful successors to the apostles.

Third, I don't think you can say "quite clearly not" a Bible teaching, especially if you agree that it is implied therein.

Fourth, I don't see how fleshing out a certain understanding "overrides" "what the scriptures 'say.'" What do they "say?" In what way does the doctrine "override" anything?

Fifth, since the Church is the Body of Christ, Tradition is man-made, but it is Divinely-inspired, just as the Bible was man-made and Divinely-inspired. your POV here is strictly sola scriptura (which, incidentally, came about in the 1500's looooong after the apostles died and is, therefore, a "man-made" tradition that overrides the original intent of the scriptures).

 

[sojourner]

What does John 17:3 say? If our everlasting life depends on our taking in knowledge of God and his son then surly it would not be a mystery but accurate knowledge.

Well, first of all, this isn't a "formula." It's a prayer. And the prayer conceptualizes unity. Second, the "knowing" that Jesus speaks of here isn't an analysis of facts. It's an internalization of understanding. One can embrace, understand and internalize what it means to live in community and to be identified by community, without necessarily being able to analyze the interpersonal dynamics of the community.

 

[AK4]

In what way does Trinitarian doctrine "deny Jesus?" Perhaps you'd be so kind as to provide the reference of what the scripture says, so that we can all look at it?
I believe in the Trinity, and so do many other folks I know. somehow, I don't think my faith is either "futile" nor "worthless." Further I don't think you're in any position, either by relationship or understanding, to make that call.

Thank you for your support.

You absolutely amase me. First you say "Perhaps you'd be so kind as to provide the reference of what the scripture says, so that we can all look at it?"

Then you have the nerve to post in the next post "First of all, I don't have to "show you a scripture." That would only be necessary if I bought into the fallacy of sola scriptura, which, as I have asserted time and again, I do not. I will not argue doctrine on that basis."

It matters not if you believe in sola scritura, you should provide scriptural support to back up your claims. And the really sad thing is, if i remember right you said before you are a pastor or something and have your own congregation and yet you teach and believe that the WORD OF GOD is incomplete and that God didnt have anything to do with the canonization of what we have as the scriptures now, that you believe all the other letters and books out there that contradict something in the canonized scriptures. Yet you supposedly believe that God is a God of confusion and contradictions. Sad! I could go further but i will leave it at that.

BTW I will not "show you scripture" for two reasons.

1. because of what you have posted
2. because you [even being a preacher or whatever] dont even BELIEVE the scriptures

sorry i will add a third reason and this out of the scriptures themselves "BECAUSE YOU DESPISE MY WORD" spoken by God through His prophets to the "shepards" who kept leading His people away. Hint hint...sound familiar pastor :yes:

 

[AK4]

God's Personhood is implicit.

Is it? Well lets throw out all those verses where God plainly states He is not a man and even plainer put by Jesus Himself who says what God is "God is spirit". That trinity doctrine got you all screwed up. You will never know the Father. Also i didnt answer in the last post but how does believing in the trinity deny Jesus. I state many but i will keep it simple for you because this doctrine got you all screwed up.

Jesus said BELIEVE what He says and believe that words He speaks are true. Now ask yourself and put your doctrine to the test of the scriptures. So Jesus says REPEATEDLY "I CAME OUT FROM the Father" "I CAME OUT FROM GOD" and not to mention over and over and over again the scriptures say "ALL IS OUT OF GOD". Now if you BELIEVED Jesus' words then you would believe also that when He says I CAME OUT OF GOD.

Heres just one of maybe hundreds of scriptures you say Jesus lied about

26At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: 27for the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. 28I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

As i was taught by the one i learned from PAY ATTENTION TO ALL THE WORDS. Notice what is said and especially notice what is underlined. Now trinitarians say Jesus DID NOT come out of God because He is also an equal third of God so in essence yall say Jesus came out from Himself. Notice also why the Father loves them "because ye have loved me, AND have believed that I CAME OUT FROM GOD."
They believed He came out from God and that is why God loves them. They dont twist His words and call Him a liar and deny Him by saying He came out from Himself and that He ALWAYS EXISTED.


Would you like me to go further and expose this trinity heresy? Glad you asked but just one more [although i could go for awhile on this]. Jesus DIED. I know i know you really dont believe He died but the truth is He DIED, since Jesus died and if He is also God the Father the all of God died and if all of God died and as scripture say we are in God and move, live and exist in God then.....well you do the math and if you cant figure it out well what can i say

 

[AK4]

Yeah, well. The statement in all-caps demonstrates a decidedly sola scriptura stance, as well as a decidedly literalistic viewpoint of scriptural treatment. since neither one represents the historic and traditional treatment of scripture, we need pay no attention to it.

From the Westminster Dictionary of Theological Terms (Westminster John Knox Press, 1996):

Trinity, doctrine of the (From Lat. trinitas, "triad") The Christian church's belief that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three Persons in one Godhead. They share the same essence or substance (Gr. homoousios). Yet they are three "persons" (Lat. personae). God is this way within the Godhead and as known in Christian experience.

Trinity, essential The church's doctrine of the Trinity, that God is a trinity in unity and a unity in trinity. God as three in one is experienced by humans as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The three Persons of the Trinity share the same essence and relate to one another in love.

The first reference is simply dismissive of the doctrine (not surprising). The second respects it as the consensus of the Church (also not surprising). Personally, I find the second much more useful inasmuch as it at least seeks to engage the subject, rather than simply brush it off.

Hardly even close to literalistic and sorry if you cant find any logic or any scriptural support for something then ITS FALSE pastor.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Is it? Well lets throw out all those verses where God plainly states He is not a man and even plainer put by Jesus Himself who says what God is "God is spirit". That trinity doctrine got you all screwed up. You will never know the Father. Also i didnt answer in the last post but how does believing in the trinity deny Jesus. I state many but i will keep it simple for you because this doctrine got you all screwed up.

Jesus said BELIEVE what He says and believe that words He speaks are true. Now ask yourself and put your doctrine to the test of the scriptures. So Jesus says REPEATEDLY "I CAME OUT FROM the Father" "I CAME OUT FROM GOD" and not to mention over and over and over again the scriptures say "ALL IS OUT OF GOD". Now if you BELIEVED Jesus' words then you would believe also that when He says I CAME OUT OF GOD.

Heres just one of maybe hundreds of scriptures you say Jesus lied about

26At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: 27for the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. 28I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

As i was taught by the one i learned from PAY ATTENTION TO ALL THE WORDS. Notice what is said and especially notice what is underlined. Now trinitarians say Jesus DID NOT come out of God because He is also an equal third of God so in essence yall say Jesus came out from Himself. Notice also why the Father loves them "because ye have loved me, AND have believed that I CAME OUT FROM GOD."
They believed He came out from God and that is why God loves them. They dont twist His words and call Him a liar and deny Him by saying He came out from Himself and that He ALWAYS EXISTED.


Would you like me to go further and expose this trinity heresy? Glad you asked but just one more [although i could go for awhile on this]. Jesus DIED. I know i know you really dont believe He died but the truth is He DIED, since Jesus died and if He is also God the Father the all of God died and if all of God died and as scripture say we are in God and move, live and exist in God then.....well you do the math and if you cant figure it out well what can i say

You are animated today....Somebody got you all riled up.

Here's the thing..no matter how many NT verses you pull out where the biblical Yeshua says plainly ("explicitly") (he, while in heaven, learned from his god, was taught by his god, was given a task by is god, was sent by his god, was given power from his god, he had a god....etc...etc...) trinitarians will never get the simple and plain information in their gospels that the biblical Yeshua isn't "God" nor did he ever claim or teach that he was....

Then there's Revelation. If that book is to be excepted...and as far Christians are concerned..it is...then we know outright the biblical Yeshua isn't "God" because of who's who in chapters 4, 5 and 6.


Still...NOPE....."Jesus is God".....:ignore:

 

[AK4]

are you saying that a spirit cannot be a person -- and that a person cannot be a spirit? When the disciples in the boat saw Jesus walking on the water, but didn't recognize him, they most certainly thought that a spirit was a person. When Jesus came through the locked door after his resurrection and disappeared from the disciples' sight in Emmaus, they certainly thought a person could be a spirit.

Kinda hard to believe, ain't it!

Wow, rotflol, talk about twisting. By your logic if it was T-rex walking on water and and they thought it was a spirit then too a T-rex can/could be a spirit.:biglaugh:

 

[AK4]

"Pot, meet Kettle..."

Are you now saying that the Holy Spirit doesn't exist because Paul neglects to mention it in this one passage?

Ridiculous, ain't it!

Are you now saying that the holy spirit is a third equal part of God, is also God the holy spirit because THE WHOLE BIBLE DOESNT MENTION IT OR SUPPORT SCRIPTURALLY OR LOGICALLY?

So who sounds more ridiculous?

 

[Midnight Pete]

Is it? Well lets throw out all those verses where God plainly states He is not a man and even plainer put by Jesus Himself who says what God is "God is spirit". That trinity doctrine got you all screwed up. You will never know the Father. Also i didnt answer in the last post but how does believing in the trinity deny Jesus. I state many but i will keep it simple for you because this doctrine got you all screwed up.

Jesus said BELIEVE what He says and believe that words He speaks are true. Now ask yourself and put your doctrine to the test of the scriptures. So Jesus says REPEATEDLY "I CAME OUT FROM the Father" "I CAME OUT FROM GOD" and not to mention over and over and over again the scriptures say "ALL IS OUT OF GOD". Now if you BELIEVED Jesus' words then you would believe also that when He says I CAME OUT OF GOD.

Heres just one of maybe hundreds of scriptures you say Jesus lied about

26At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: 27for the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. 28I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

As i was taught by the one i learned from PAY ATTENTION TO ALL THE WORDS. Notice what is said and especially notice what is underlined. Now trinitarians say Jesus DID NOT come out of God because He is also an equal third of God so in essence yall say Jesus came out from Himself. Notice also why the Father loves them "because ye have loved me, AND have believed that I CAME OUT FROM GOD."
They believed He came out from God and that is why God loves them. They dont twist His words and call Him a liar and deny Him by saying He came out from Himself and that He ALWAYS EXISTED.


Would you like me to go further and expose this trinity heresy? Glad you asked but just one more [although i could go for awhile on this]. Jesus DIED. I know i know you really dont believe He died but the truth is He DIED, since Jesus died and if He is also God the Father the all of God died and if all of God died and as scripture say we are in God and move, live and exist in God then.....well you do the math and if you cant figure it out well what can i say

The personhood of God is implicit, but God the Father is clearly not a man.

 

[AK4]

Hmmm...
"Follow me the PM section, and I'll show you where you can find the truth" isn't proselytizing?

You can think orthodox Xy is wrong, or apostate, or misguided all you want to -- and that's your privilege to do. I and many others would take serious issue with the stance posited here, but that's for another thread. However, there is a difference between simply disagreeing with a POV and telling someone, "PSSST! ... Hey! Come on over here to this secret place and I'll provide you with the real truth!"

I Know its crazy that i would do something like that aint it? Didnt Jesus do that with his true disciples? Try reading the gospels again. Matter of fact, since you like to use more than just the scriptures for your "truth", in the gospel of Judas and believe also in Thomas didnt Jesus do that for them too, especially Judas? Wow can we say :foot::foot::foot:

 

[AK4]

Παράκλητος is paraclete, translated as "encourager" or "comforter." In John 14:16, Jesus (in talking about going away from them) says that he will ask the Father, and he (Father) "will give you another paraclete to be with you..." then, in John 14:26, Jesus says, "...the paraclete, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name..."

It is clear from these two passages that the paraclete is the Holy Spirit, and that the Holy Spirit is an entity other than Jesus, himself, but is still some Divine Presence.

Maybe you should read those quotes posted #523 and 524 again

 

[AK4]

You are animated today....Somebody got you all riled up.

Here's the thing..no matter how many NT verses you pull out where the biblical Yeshua says plainly ("explicitly") (he, while in heaven, learned from his god, was taught by his god, was given a task by is god, was sent by his god, was given power from his god, he had a god....etc...etc...) trinitarians will never get the simple and plain information in their gospels that the biblical Yeshua isn't "God" nor did he ever claim or teach that he was....

Then there's Revelation. If that book is to be excepted...and as far Christians are concerned..it is...then we know outright the biblical Yeshua isn't "God" because of who's who in chapters 4, 5 and 6.


Still...NOPE....."Jesus is God".....:ignore:

Youre right, me and him [sojourner] had it out before in another thread and no matter how many time you show him something he wont accept it. I just wanted to respond to all his stuff and i probably just let it go for him.

 

[AK4]

The personhood of God is implicit, but God the Father is clearly not a man.

I dont know what to say. God likens Himself to many things, but He is making man in "Our image".

 

[sojourner]

You absolutely amase me. You are such a hypocrite. First you say "Perhaps you'd be so kind as to provide the reference of what the scripture says, so that we can all look at it?"

Then you have the nerve to post in the next post "First of all, I don't have to "show you a scripture." That would only be necessary if I bought into the fallacy of sola scriptura, which, as I have asserted time and again, I do not. I will not argue doctrine on that basis."

Yes, I'm quite sure that there is much that amazes you.

You said, with regard to something you posited, that: "This is what the scriptures say." Yet, you don't provide us with a reference as to which scripture says that. I simply asked you to cite your references.

Second, you challenged me to show you "ONE scripture that says God is a person" (quoted in post #526). I simply refused to take you up on your challenge, because the challenge was couched in sola scriptura terms. You're not going to trap me into a sola scriptura argument. And I don't have to let you.

Hypocrite! It matters not if you believe in sola scritura, you should provide scriptural support to back up your claims.

It wasn't my claim to back up. It was your challenge to me to back something up.

you teach and believe that the WORD OF GOD is incomplete and that God didnt have anything to do with the canonization of what we have as the scriptures now, that you believe all the other letters and books out there that contradict something in the canonized scriptures. Yet you supposedly believe that God is a God of confusion and contradictions. Sad! I could go further but i will leave it at that.

You grossly misrepresent me here. Stop it!

BTW I will not "show you scripture" for two reasons.

1. because of what you have posted
2. because you [even being a preacher or whatever] dont even BELIEVE the scriptures

sorry i will add a third reason and this out of the scriptures themselves "BECAUSE YOU DESPISE MY WORD" spoken by God through His prophets to the "shepards" who kept leading His people away. Hint hint...sound familiar pastor :yes:

First, you just did "show me scripture" (see what I've highlighted in red). Second, It is patently false that I don't believe the scriptures.

Your post is wrong on so many levels.

 

[sojourner]

Is it? Well lets throw out all those verses where God plainly states He is not a man and even plainer put by Jesus Himself who says what God is "God is spirit". That trinity doctrine got you all screwed up. You will never know the Father.

Well, let's look at this right here, shall we? Both Jesus and you refer to God as "Father." Jesus even goes a step further and calls God "Daddy." Both "Father" and "Daddy" are references to a person.

this doctrine got you all screwed up.

See above. I don't believe I'm the one who's screwed up on this point.

Now ask yourself and put your doctrine to the test of the scriptures...

by applying proper interpretation through the lens of the ongoing Tradition.

So Jesus says REPEATEDLY "I CAME OUT FROM the Father" "I CAME OUT FROM GOD" and not to mention over and over and over again the scriptures say "ALL IS OUT OF GOD". Now if you BELIEVED Jesus' words then you would believe also that when He says I CAME OUT OF GOD.

References, please. We can only engage in exegesis if we have the references.
Jesus did come from God. Jesus was begotten by God. I believe the doctrine of the Trinity plainly states that.

As i was taught by the one i learned from PAY ATTENTION TO ALL THE WORDS. Notice what is said and especially notice what is underlined. Now trinitarians say Jesus DID NOT come out of God because He is also an equal third of God so in essence yall say Jesus came out from Himself.

You really need to familiarize yourself with what you purport to debunk. Trinitarians do indeed say that Jesus came from the Father.

Would you like me to go further and expose this trinity heresy?

Please, carry on! I'm sure we all find this highly amusing, and I'm sure it will keep you entertained for days.

Jesus DIED. I know i know you really dont believe He died but the truth is He DIED, since Jesus died and if He is also God the Father the all of God died and if all of God died and as scripture say we are in God and move, live and exist in God then.....well you do the math and if you cant figure it out well what can i say

Of course I believe that Jesus died. However, since Jesus, according to the doctrine, is not the Father, I don't see how the Father could have died. In fact, the Father did not die -- only the Son, who was subsequently resurrected. I'm not the one who needs to do the math here, or the one who needs to "figure it out." What can I say?

 

[sojourner]

if you cant find any logic or any scriptural support for something then ITS FALSE

Blowing the sola scriptura whistle here is clearly out of jurisdiction.