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Who IS "The Only TRUE God"- as Jesus put it?

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Here's the thing..no matter how many NT verses you pull out where the biblical Yeshua says plainly ("explicitly") (he, while in heaven, learned from his god, was taught by his god, was given a task by is god, was sent by his god, was given power from his god, he had a god....etc...etc...) trinitarians will never get the simple and plain information in their gospels that the biblical Yeshua isn't "God" nor did he ever claim or teach that he was....
Again, this is a strictly sola scriptura stance, which, I might point out, was not the stance at the time the doctrine was debated.

Yes, the doctrine is problematic in some areas. So is the opposite view. The doctrine doesn't seek to provide an airtight case. It seeks to provide an understanding that accomplishes two tasks:
1) be less problematic than other viewpoints
2) provide a broad consensus upon which the majority of the Church can agree.

I think the doctrine does that.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Wow, rotflol, talk about twisting. By your logic if it was T-rex walking on water and and they thought it was a spirit then too a T-rex can/could be a spirit.:biglaugh:
What!? You mean it's right there in the Bible and you don't believe it!? SACRILEGE!
:foot:
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Are you now saying that the holy spirit is a third equal part of God, is also God the holy spirit because THE WHOLE BIBLE DOESNT MENTION IT OR SUPPORT SCRIPTURALLY OR LOGICALLY?

So who sounds more ridiculous?
I'm saying that just because Paul doesn't mention it here doesn't mean that he didn't believe in it. This isn't a statement of formula. It's a letter.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I Know its crazy that i would do something like that aint it? Didnt Jesus do that with his true disciples? Try reading the gospels again. Matter of fact, since you like to use more than just the scriptures for your "truth", in the gospel of Judas and believe also in Thomas didnt Jesus do that for them too, especially Judas? Wow can we say :foot::foot::foot:
Jesus wasn't constrained by the rules of this forum. You, however, are.

To quote from Lloyd Benson: "You, sir, are no Jack Kennedy."
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Youre right, me and him [sojourner] had it out before in another thread and no matter how many time you show him something he wont accept it. I just wanted to respond to all his stuff and i probably just let it go for him.
If it rings true, I accept it. If it comes off as baseless BS, I don't accept it. Stop posting poorly thought out theology and I'll stop dismissing it.
 

AK4

Well-Known Member
You grossly misrepresent me here. Stop it!

Sorry i was typing to fast and left out a word or two heres what i said and what is in red is the left out word

you teach and believe that the WORD OF GOD is incomplete and that God didnt have anything to do with the canonization of what we have as the scriptures now, that you believe all the other letters and books out there [that contradict something in the canonized scriptures] doesnt in fact contradict the scriptures, that all these other stuff still is the word of God . Yet you supposedly believe that God is a God of confusion and contradictions. Sad! I could go further but i will leave it at that.

First, you just did "show me scripture" (see what I've highlighted in red). Second, It is patently false that I don't believe the scriptures.
Really? So you do believe the scriptures right? And you believe the trinity? Am i incorrect in that the teaching of the trinity states that these three "persons" are coequal? Then if so and you believe this then YOU DONT BELIEVE THIS SCRIPTURE
"My Father is GREATER than I" (John 14:28).

Another dilemma for you---which was created first by the Father, the Son or the holy spirit? Oh now you have a to throw in another false teaching that the Son always existed therefore never created but existed from eternity. So YOU believing in this doctrine called trinity dont BELIEVE these scriptures either

Re 3:14 -"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:

Re 21:6 - Then He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost.
Re 22:13 -"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

I know i wasnt going to post scripture for you but maybe if you see it enough you might actually start to believe it.

edit---let me add this i found

Learn something important and profound: Whenever someone tries to teach you a doctrine that is UNscriptural, he will always be forced to use words that are unscriptural.
  • First of all, nowhere in the Scriptures is God referred to or called a "trinity."
  • Second, the word "three" is never used in reference to Who or What God is.
  • Third, God is never called or referred to as "a person."
  • Four, the holy spirit is never called "God."
  • Five, since Christ is the Son, He cannot also be the Father or be coequal with His Father. Christ plainly said:

"My Father is GREATER than I" (John 14:28).
The holy spirit is never called God, God is never referred to as a trinity or a person or consisting of three, and Christ is the Son of the Father, YET this mysterious doctrine is believed by millions. Why?
 
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AK4

Well-Known Member
CONTINUED FROM LAST POST

Again, this is a strictly sola scriptura stance, which, I might point out, was not the stance at the time the doctrine was debated.

Yes, the doctrine is problematic in some areas. So is the opposite view. The doctrine doesn't seek to provide an airtight case. It seeks to provide an understanding that accomplishes two tasks:
1) be less problematic than other viewpoints
2) provide a broad consensus upon which the majority of the Church can agree.

I think the doctrine does that

Really?

From CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Blessed Trinity from the catholic encyclopedia. Words in purple are theres and for emphasis, words in red and capitolized are mine

The dogma of the Trinity


The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion — the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another.
Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: "the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God." In this Trinity of Persons the Son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation [ETERNAL?, SO THE SON WAS NEVER CREATED, AGAIN THEN SCRIPTURES ARE LYING] , and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son. Yet, notwithstanding this difference as to origin, the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: [EXCUSE ME! UNLESS THE MEANING OF ETERNAL AND ETERNITY ISNT ALWAYS EXISTED HERE, THEN HOUSTON WE HAVE A PROBLEM BECAUSE AGAIN THEY CONTRADICT SCRIPTURE] all alike are uncreated [UNCREATED? AGAIN CONTRADICTION OF SCRIPTURE SEE ABOVE VERSES ALREADY QUOTED, WOW THIS IS LOOKING PRETTY BAD FOR YOU] and omnipotent. This, the Church teaches, is the revelation regarding God's nature which Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came upon earth to deliver to the world: and which she proposes to man as the foundation of her whole dogmatic system. [SO THE CHURCH TEACHES SOMETHING THAT IS BLATANTLY CONTRADICTORY TO THE WORD? CAN WE SAY MYSTERY BABYLON AND FALLEN AWAY]
In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together. The word trias (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A.D. 180. He speaks of "the Trinity of God [the Father], His Word and His Wisdom (To Autolycus II.15). The term may, of course, have been in use before his time. Afterwards it appears in its Latin form of trinitas in Tertullian (On Pudicity 21). In the next century the word is in general use. It is found in many passages of Origen ("In Ps. xvii", 15). The first creed in which it appears is that of Origen's pupil, Gregory Thaumaturgus. In his Ekthesis tes pisteos composed between 260 and 270, he writes:
There is therefore nothing created, [NOTHING CREATED? AGAIN HERESY AND YET TRINITARIANS EAT THIS UP] nothing subject to another [OH REALLY? LETS SEE IF HE CONTRADICTS ANOTHER SCRIPTURE 1Co 15:28 - then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all. AND 1Co 11:3 -and God is the head of Christ.] in the Trinity: nor is there anything that has been added as though it once had not existed, but had entered afterwards: therefore the Father has never been without the Son, nor the Son without the Spirit: and this same Trinity is immutable and unalterable forever (P.G., X, 986).[ALL I CAN SAY IS WOW]
It is manifest that a dogma so mysterious [WAIT A MINUTE, DIDNT YOU SAY "1) be less problematic than other viewpoints"] presupposes a Divine revelation. When the fact of revelation, understood in its full sense as the speech of God to man, is no longer admitted, the rejection of the doctrine follows as a necessary consequence. For this reason it has no place in the Liberal Protestantism of today. The writers of this school contend that the doctrine of the Trinity, as professed by the Church, is not contained in the New Testament,

SORRY FOR THE INTERRUPTION BUT LETS READ THAT AGAIN as professed by the Church, IS NOT contained in the New Testament,

continued

but that it was first formulated in the second century and received final approbation in the fourth, as the result of the Arian and Macedonian controversies. In view of this assertion it is necessary to consider in some detail the evidence afforded by Holy Scripture. Attempts have been made recently to apply the more extreme theories of comparative religion to the doctrine of the Trinity, and to account for it by an imaginary law of nature compelling men to group the objects of their worship in threes. [WOW] It seems needless to give more than a reference to these extravagant views, which serious thinkers of every school reject as destitute of foundation.
 

AK4

Well-Known Member
by applying proper interpretation through the lens of the ongoing Tradition.

If tradition is wrong why do to keep going with what is wrong?

You really need to familiarize yourself with what you purport to debunk. Trinitarians do indeed say that Jesus came from the Father.

"they speak with forked tongue" better yet this word defines them exactly


Doublespeak (sometimes called doubletalk) is language that deliberately disguises, distorts, or reverses the meaning of words. Doublespeak may take the form of euphemisms (e.g., "downsizing" for layoffs), making the truth less unpleasant, without denying its nature. It may also be deployed as intentional ambiguity, or reversal of meaning (for example, naming a state of war "peace"). In such cases, doublespeak disguises the nature of the truth, producing a communication bypass.

Case in point they say Jesus died but then they also say when He was DEAD He was down in hades preaching to the OT saints? Contradiction anyone? Doublespeak anyone? Or like the starburst commercial---the living dead---living....dead...even this zombie says CONTRADICTION

Of course I believe that Jesus died. However, since Jesus, according to the doctrine, is not the Father, I don't see how the Father could have died. In fact, the Father did not die -- only the Son, who was subsequently resurrected. I'm not the one who needs to do the math here, or the one who needs to "figure it out." What can I say?
See above and my response is in red
 
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AK4

Well-Known Member
Blowing the sola scriptura whistle here is clearly out of jurisdiction.
Excuse me? is it me that says "do not add or take away from My Word"? Now, pastor, think about this seriously, are you obeying God or not by using extra letters and books with the scriptures?
 
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AK4

Well-Known Member
What!? You mean it's right there in the Bible and you don't believe it!? SACRILEGE!
:foot:
Once again ive proven you wrong and you dont accept the truth

AK4<------------------------- *SHAKING THE DUST FROM MY FEET*

If you are happy with your beliefs and dont care for truth then so be it, thank God that you will purged of this and will like all eventually come to the knowledge of the truth.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Sorry i was typing to fast
apparently, you're thinking too fast, because your posts are getting here waaaay ahead of plausibility.
I could go further but i will leave it at that.
Wonderful. I hope you're true to your word on this point.
I know i wasnt going to post scripture for you but maybe if you see it enough you might actually start to believe it.
You mean you lied to me? And you call me a hypocrite. Disappointing, AK. Disappointing.
Learn something important and profound: Whenever someone tries to teach you a doctrine that is UNscriptural, he will always be forced to use words that are unscriptural.
  • First of all, nowhere in the Scriptures is God referred to or called a "trinity."
  • Second, the word "three" is never used in reference to Who or What God is.
  • Third, God is never called or referred to as "a person."
  • Four, the holy spirit is never called "God."
  • Five, since Christ is the Son, He cannot also be the Father or be coequal with His Father. Christ plainly said:
"My Father is GREATER than I" (John 14:28).
The holy spirit is never called God, God is never referred to as a trinity or a person or consisting of three, and Christ is the Son of the Father, YET this mysterious doctrine is believed by millions. Why?
Translation:
"Blahblahblahblah. I have no idea what I'm talking about. Blahblahblah."
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
CONTINUED FROM LAST POST



Really?

From CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Blessed Trinity from the catholic encyclopedia. Words in purple are theres and for emphasis, words in red and capitolized are mine

The dogma of the Trinity


The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion — the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another.
Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: "the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God." In this Trinity of Persons the Son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation [ETERNAL?, SO THE SON WAS NEVER CREATED, AGAIN THEN SCRIPTURES ARE LYING] , and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son. Yet, notwithstanding this difference as to origin, the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: [EXCUSE ME! UNLESS THE MEANING OF ETERNAL AND ETERNITY ISNT ALWAYS EXISTED HERE, THEN HOUSTON WE HAVE A PROBLEM BECAUSE AGAIN THEY CONTRADICT SCRIPTURE] all alike are uncreated [UNCREATED? AGAIN CONTRADICTION OF SCRIPTURE SEE ABOVE VERSES ALREADY QUOTED, WOW THIS IS LOOKING PRETTY BAD FOR YOU] and omnipotent. This, the Church teaches, is the revelation regarding God's nature which Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came upon earth to deliver to the world: and which she proposes to man as the foundation of her whole dogmatic system. [SO THE CHURCH TEACHES SOMETHING THAT IS BLATANTLY CONTRADICTORY TO THE WORD? CAN WE SAY MYSTERY BABYLON AND FALLEN AWAY]
In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together. The word trias (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A.D. 180. He speaks of "the Trinity of God [the Father], His Word and His Wisdom (To Autolycus II.15). The term may, of course, have been in use before his time. Afterwards it appears in its Latin form of trinitas in Tertullian (On Pudicity 21). In the next century the word is in general use. It is found in many passages of Origen ("In Ps. xvii", 15). The first creed in which it appears is that of Origen's pupil, Gregory Thaumaturgus. In his Ekthesis tes pisteos composed between 260 and 270, he writes:
There is therefore nothing created, [NOTHING CREATED? AGAIN HERESY AND YET TRINITARIANS EAT THIS UP] nothing subject to another [OH REALLY? LETS SEE IF HE CONTRADICTS ANOTHER SCRIPTURE 1Co 15:28 - then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all. AND 1Co 11:3 -and God is the head of Christ.] in the Trinity: nor is there anything that has been added as though it once had not existed, but had entered afterwards: therefore the Father has never been without the Son, nor the Son without the Spirit: and this same Trinity is immutable and unalterable forever (P.G., X, 986).[ALL I CAN SAY IS WOW]
It is manifest that a dogma so mysterious [WAIT A MINUTE, DIDNT YOU SAY "1) be less problematic than other viewpoints"] presupposes a Divine revelation. When the fact of revelation, understood in its full sense as the speech of God to man, is no longer admitted, the rejection of the doctrine follows as a necessary consequence. For this reason it has no place in the Liberal Protestantism of today. The writers of this school contend that the doctrine of the Trinity, as professed by the Church, is not contained in the New Testament,

SORRY FOR THE INTERRUPTION BUT LETS READ THAT AGAIN as professed by the Church, IS NOT contained in the New Testament,

continued

but that it was first formulated in the second century and received final approbation in the fourth, as the result of the Arian and Macedonian controversies. In view of this assertion it is necessary to consider in some detail the evidence afforded by Holy Scripture. Attempts have been made recently to apply the more extreme theories of comparative religion to the doctrine of the Trinity, and to account for it by an imaginary law of nature compelling men to group the objects of their worship in threes. [WOW] It seems needless to give more than a reference to these extravagant views, which serious thinkers of every school reject as destitute of foundation.
And how does this adequately address the post? Oh, wait! It doesn't!
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
If tradition is wrong why do to keep going with what is wrong?
Tradition isn't wrong. Tradition is tradition.
"they speak with forked tongue" better yet this word defines them exactly


Doublespeak (sometimes called doubletalk) is language that deliberately disguises, distorts, or reverses the meaning of words. Doublespeak may take the form of euphemisms (e.g., "downsizing" for layoffs), making the truth less unpleasant, without denying its nature. It may also be deployed as intentional ambiguity, or reversal of meaning (for example, naming a state of war "peace"). In such cases, doublespeak disguises the nature of the truth, producing a communication bypass.

Case in point they say Jesus died but then they also say when He was DEAD He was down in hades preaching to the OT saints? Contradiction anyone? Doublespeak anyone? Or like the starburst commercial---the living dead---living....dead...even this zombie says CONTRADICTION
If you spent half as much energy in actually spreading the gospel message rather than spreading venom, you might actually do some good in the world.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Excuse me? is it me that says "do not add or take away from My Word"? Now, pastor, think about this seriously, are you obeying God or not by using extra letters and books with the scriptures?
That's not what is meant by that passage. Therefore, it's a moot question.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Once again ive proven you wrong
"Once again?" I'm still waiting for the first time...
as well as this time.
The only thing you've proven is your bad temper.
you dont accept the truth
I've said this before, but apparently you refuse to accept this truth:
You're in no position to make this call.
AK4<------------------------- *SHAKING THE DUST FROM MY FEET*
Litterbug...
If you are happy with your beliefs
I'm never happy with my beliefs. I always doubt and question and check.
and dont care for truth
Oh, but I do.
[hint] You need to follow the advice of your own signature line.
thank God that you will purged of this and will like all eventually come to the knowledge of the truth.
I have no idea what "this" is that you refer to, but I hope that one day we will all come to full enlightenment.
 

smokydot

Well-Known Member
I'm referring to any place where God judges us.
Let's review why you object to "judgment" meaning "punishment."

1. (post #452) - It began with my defense of God's judgment (punishment) on those who loved the lie (in next to last response).
2. (post #492) - You replied that judgment is not the same as punishment.
3. (post #516) - I presented Webster's definition of "judgment" as punishment, and two scriptures where it is used to mean punishment--Nu 33:4, 1 Co 11:29-30.
4. Now you say you were referring to the places where God judges us.

But that plainly was not to what I was referring (post #452).

The confusion is due to two meanings in Scripture for the word "judgment":
1) punishment, and
2) formal opinion or decision.

We see both meanings used in 1 Co 11:31:
"But if we judged ourselves (condemned and corrected our sinning), we would not come under judgment (God's discipline, punishment)."
No, in I Cor. 11:29-30 we see consequences of our own actions, and the consequences of God's grace.
All God's judgments, in the sense of punishment, are the consequences of sinful actions.
If Judgment = punishment, then in what way can any of us escape hell? We all come before God upon death to be judged -- righteous and unrighteous alike. If all God's judgments = God's punishments, everyone -- including the righteous -- will be punished, no?:thud:
All God's judgments do not = punishments.
The word has two meanings in Scripture.

(Is that smilie meant to be sarcastic?)
 
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