Who IS "The Only TRUE God"- as Jesus put it?

[Dirty Penguin]

What translation might that be?

I'm not sure what you're getting at. I have looked at multiple translations of 1John 5:20 and none of them reveal Yeshua to be "God". anthony55 is focused on a portion of that verse and that focus has him reading the verse out of context with no understanding as to what is being said and who is being referenced throughout the verse. Revelation 3:12 speaks for itself in every translation. The biblical Yeshua mentions 4 times in one verse he has a god. Revelation 4 and 5 show The Lamb (Yeshua) "standing" in the midst of the 24 elders while "God" is seated upon the throne with the sealed scroll in his hand. The one true god the biblical Yeshua referred to was his god, the one that "sent" him. In order to be sent there must have been a sender.

 

[kepha31]

Psalm 82 is a petition beseeching God to judge the so-called gods for their failure to maintain justice and righteousness. It is clear from the context that the gods are the men whom God appointed to rule and judge the people.

The Psalmist provides support for viewing these gods as human beings since in v. 7 he says that they shall die like all other men. In fact, the following Psalm echoes the same theme of 82 and calls human judges gods.

At least your site doesn't try to attack the grammatical correctness of the "a god" reading. It should also be noted, there are versions other than the JW that correctly use "a god", and it should be noted that all the major translations which use "God" were published by Trinitarians. There is no grammatical argument against using it as "a god".[/quote]

Psalm 136:2
Text without context is a pretext. Since we have determined that "gods" refer to men who will die like any body else, it cannot mean that God is just another one of the guys (who attained ascension as in Star Gate SG1).

 

[kepha31]

From your site

I guess Paul violated this in 2 Corinthians 4:4 when he talks about the Evil one as "The god of this world". I guess Jesus was guilty too when he quoted Psalm 82:6 "you are gods". I guess the Psalmist of 136:2 broke that commandment 2.

So does that mean Almighty God is just another one of the guys (who ascended as in Star Gate SG1)?

Th

e first commandment is to not have any gods BEFORE God, which means to hold the Most High as the Most High, and to call "gods" with the lower case g. "To worship" means to bow down to physically, yet David and Angels were bowed down to. Worshiping God as The Most High, God of the gods (psalm 136:2) is the commandment.

Ok. But I am not clear if you mean God equals gods, or if all bowing equals worship.

At least your site doesn't try to attack the grammatical correctness of the "a god" reading. It should also be noted, there are versions other than the JW that correctly use "a god", and it should be noted that all the major translations which use "God" were published by Trinitarians. There is no grammatical argument against using it as "a god".

And "a god" means what?

 

[Shermana]

So does that mean Almighty God is just another one of the guys (who ascended as in Star Gate SG1)?

Th
Ok. But I am not clear if you mean God equals gods, or if all bowing equals worship.

And "a god" means what?

The word "God" means "Supreme one" or "Strongest one", from the word "Ayel", "One who is Strong". Angels are indeed referred to as "gods". However, the Most High God is worthy of the Capital G, he is more powerful than all of them, and they are all created in His image, as we are created in their image.


All worship is bowing and all bowing is worship. The word "Worship" in English is much different than in Hebrew. In fact, the original use of "Worship" meant "Worthy of being kneeled to" and wigged Judges were referred to as "Your worship" like "Your majesty", otherwise "your worthiness of being bowed to".

One can be "a god" and still "have a god". God is the god of the gods. Make sense?

Bowing to a King as king is one thing, but bowing to a being as Your God is another. That is why Jesus refused to bow to Satan. The word "Worship" implies "bowing" in the sense of "bowing in servitude and loyalty".

 

[kepha31]

I'm not sure what you're getting at. I have looked at multiple translations of 1John 5:20 and none of them reveal Yeshua to be "God".

1John 5:20
New International Version (©1984)
We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true--even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

New Living Translation (©2007)
And we know that the Son of God has come, and he has given us understanding so that we can know the true God. And now we live in fellowship with the true God because we live in fellowship with his Son, Jesus Christ. He is the only true God, and he is eternal life.
English Standard Version (©2001)
And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
International Standard Version (©2008)
We also know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding so that we may know the true God. We are in union with the one who is true, his Son Jesus the Messiah, who is the true God and eternal life.
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
We know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding so that we know the real God. We are in the one who is real, his Son Jesus Christ. This Jesus Christ is the real God and eternal life.
King James Bible
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
American King James Version
And we know that the Son of God is come, and has given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
American Standard Version
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
Bible in Basic English
And we are certain that the Son of God has come, and has given us a clear vision, so that we may see him who is true, and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And we know that the Son of God is come: and he hath given us understanding that we may know the true God, and may be in his true Son. This is the true God and life eternal.
Darby Bible Translation
And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us an understanding that we should know him that is true; and we are in him that is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
English Revised Version
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
Webster's Bible Translation
And we know that the Son of God hath come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
Weymouth New Testament
And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we know the true One, and are in union with the true One--that is, we are in union with His Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and the Life of the Ages.
World English Bible
We know that the Son of God has come, and has given us an understanding, that we know him who is true, and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. Young's Literal Translation
and we have known that the Son of God is come, and hath given us a mind, that we may know Him who is true, and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ; this one is the true God and the life age-during!
1 John 5:20 We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true--even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

anthony55 is focused on a portion of that verse and that focus has him reading the verse out of context with no understanding as to what is being said and who is being referenced throughout the verse. Revelation 3:12 speaks for itself in every translation.

Jesus and God are one and the same. Then Rev. 3:12 makes sense.

The biblical Yeshua mentions 4 times in one verse he has a god.

No, it says , "...my God"

Revelation 4 and 5 show The Lamb (Yeshua) "standing" in the midst of the 24 elders while "God" is seated upon the throne with the sealed scroll in his hand. The one true god the biblical Yeshua referred to was his god, the one that "sent" him. In order to be sent there must have been a sender.

Sent, but not created.

 

[kepha31]

The word "God" means "Supreme one" or "Strongest one", from the word "Ayel", "One who is Strong". Angels are indeed referred to as "gods". However, the Most High God is worthy of the Capital G, he is more powerful than all of them, and they are all created in His image, as we are created in their image.

It doesn't answer my question: "A god means what?"

All worship is bowing and all bowing is worship. The word "Worship" in English is much different than in Hebrew. In fact, the original use of "Worship" meant "Worthy of being kneeled to" and wigged Judges were referred to as "Your worship" like "Your majesty", otherwise "your worthiness of being bowed to".

But we know that judges (magistrates) are not worshipped.
"Outside of this example, however, the English term "worship" has been narrowed in scope to indicate only that supreme form of honor, reverence, and respect that is due to God. This change in usage is quite recent. In fact, one can still find books that use "worship" in the older, broader sense. This can lead to a significant degree of confusion, when people who are familiar only with the use of words in their own day and their own circles encounter material written in other times and other places.

In Scripture, the term "worship" was similarly broad in meaning, but in the early Christian centuries, theologians began to differentiate between different types of honor in order to make more clear which is due to God and which is not."
http://www.catholic.com/library/Saint_Worship.asphttp://www.catholic.com/library/Saint_Worship.asp

Not all bowing is worship.


Rev. 3:9 - Jesus said people would bow down before the faithful members of the church of Philadelphia. This bowing before the faithful is not worship, just as kissing a picture of a family member is not worship.

Gen. 19:1 - Lot bowed down to the ground in veneration before two angels in Sodom.


Gen. 42:6 - Joseph's brothers bow before Joseph with the face to the ground.


Jos. 5:14 - Joshua fell to the ground prostrate in veneration before an angel.

1 Sam. 28:14 - Saul bows down before Samuel with his face to the ground in honor and veneration.
Scripture Catholic - SAINTS AND INTERCESSORY PRAYER

One can be "a god" and still "have a god". God is the god of the gods. Make sense?

No. You are reducing the Almighty Omnipotent, Omnipresent creator of the universe to "a god". You are not making any sense at all.

Bowing to a King as king is one thing, but bowing to a being as Your God is another. That is why Jesus refused to bow to Satan. The word "Worship" implies "bowing" in the sense of "bowing in servitude and loyalty".

The first link gives an explanation of how the term "worship" has changed its meaning over the centuries. The second link shows scriptural examples where "bowing" does not mean "worship".

 

[Shermana]

Apparently you think the modern word for "Worship" supercedes the old definition as well as the original Hebrew word for "bow down to/kneel down to". If you seriously think that the modern use of the English "worship" renders what is said in the original Hebrew different, well then, carry on.

Why don't you actually quote the First commandment.

I'm sorry if you can't accept the idea that Yashua was "a god", Philo elaborated on it more, with teh concept of the Logos as the Supreme Foreman of the Angels and the Truest Representative of the Divine Will.

Philo of Alexandria*[Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy]

d. First-born Son of God

The Logos has an origin, but as God’s thought it also has eternal generation. It exists as such before everything else all of which are secondary products of God’s thought and therefore it is called the “first-born.” The Logos is thus more than a quality, power, or characteristic of God; it is an entity eternally generated as an extension, to which Philo ascribes many names and functions. The Logos is the first-begotten Son of the Uncreated Father: “For the Father of the universe has caused him to spring up as the eldest son, whom, in another passage, he [Moses] calls the first-born; and he who is thus born, imitating the ways of his father, has formed such and such species, looking to his archetypal patterns” (Conf. 63). This picture is somewhat confusing because we learn that in the final analysis the Creative Power is also identified with the Logos. The Creative Power is logically prior to the Regent Power since it is conceptually older. Though the powers are of equal age, the creative is prior because one is king not of the nonexistent but of what has already come into being (QE 2.62). These two powers thus delimit the bounds of heaven and the world. The Creative Power is concerned that things that come into being through it should not be dissolved, and the Regent Power that nothing either exceeds or is robbed of its due, all being arbitrated by the laws of equality through which things continue eternally (QE 2.64). The positive properties of God may be subdivided into these two polar forces;

 

[zorrro]

I believe the folly of believing The Son is the Father only plays into the hands of those who ridicule Christianity. It is interesting that the Catholic church had a one-time-beats-all theological debate with the recognized leader of the Jewish religion (nahomonides) in Spain in approximately the 1200's and the Jewish leader WON the religious debate. One of his logical points was that precisely. The Jewish intellectual told the priests "Who would believe in Christianity when the person who brought Christianity to the world and who ALSO WAS GOD (according to you) WAS KILLED!!" The concept of Jesus as God is ridicule to others. Additionally, making Jesus into God has its theological complications. One of the greatest is that of Mary. If Mary gave birth to "God" - then- my word - she is the mother of "GOD" and therefore more important than Jesus. She is the mother. So... let us create respect for Mary, mother of "God". The situation now requires that we now say that Mary was a perfect human being, that Mary was immaculate (nothing else will do for the mother of god), and that she could not have had any other children, etc. etc, etc. So now Mary becomes more important than God! Why of course - she HAD God!! So this clearly shows the complication of this false non-Christian doctrine. Recently a Christian radio speaker mentioned that if the FAther, The Son and the Holy Ghost were three separate and distinct "beings" then the true father of Jesus the Christ was really the Holy Ghost and not the Father because the Holy Ghost impregnated Mary. Is this incredible thinking or what!!!!! This is once again the result of making three gods out nothing. Incidentally, when Jesus said "the father and I are one" he never mentioned the Holy Ghost for obvious reasons. There is actually a mad purpose behind ignoring or destroying the father of Jesus. The text would be Deut. 20:1 "thou shall not take the name of God in vain". The intellectual destruction and elimination of the Father by Christendom plays into the hands of those of the Jewish faith who want and need the name of the Father eliminated and destroyed from Christian useage. Why play into the hands of others. We as Christians must remember our Christs words to Satan in Mathew 4;10 " Satan, It is written - it is the father who we must worship". Jesus the Christ worshiped the Father. Who are we worshipping???

 

[anthony55]

1 Jn 5:20

20And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

 

[kepha31]

Apparently you think the modern word for "Worship" supercedes the old definition as well as the original Hebrew word for "bow down to/kneel down to". If you seriously think that the modern use of the English "worship" renders what is said in the original Hebrew different, well then, carry on.

I said the opposite. Read my links. Carry on.

Why don't you actually quote the First commandment.

The First Commantment forbids the worship of FALSE gods, which strengthens my position.

I'm sorry if you can't accept the idea that Yashua was "a god", Philo elaborated on it more, with teh concept of the Logos as the Supreme Foreman of the Angels and the Truest Representative of the Divine Will.

Philo of Alexandria*[Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy]

I'm sorry that Philo makes no mention of Jesus being "a god". He would have been branded a heretic if he taught your line of thinking. I suggest you read your own links more carefully.

Philo’s doctrine of the Logos is blurred by his mystical and religious vision, but his Logos is clearly the second individual in one God as a hypostatization of God’s Creative Power – Wisdom. The supreme being is God and the next is Wisdom or the Logos of God (Op. 24). Logos has many names as did Zeus (LA 1.43,45,46), and multiple functions. Earthly wisdom is but a copy of this celestial Wisdom. It was represented in historical times by the tabernacle through which God sent an image of divine excellence as a representation and copy of Wisdom (Lev. 16:16; Her. 112-113). The Divine Logos never mixes with the things which are created and thus destined to perish, but attends the One alone. This Logos is apportioned into an infinite number of parts in humans, thus we impart the Divine Logos. As a result we acquire some likeness to the Father and the Creator of all (Her. 234-236). The Logos is the Bond of the universe and mediator extended in nature. The Father eternally begat the Logos and constituted it as an unbreakable bond of the universe that produces harmony (Plant. 9-10). The Logos, mediating between God and the world, is neither uncreated as God nor created as men. So in Philo’s view the Father is the Supreme Being and the Logos, as his chief messenger, stands between Creator and creature. The Logos is an ambassador and suppliant, neither unbegotten nor begotten as are sensible things (Her. 205). Wisdom, the Daughter of God, is in reality masculine because powers have truly masculine descriptions, whereas virtues are feminine. That which is in the second place after the masculine Creator was called feminine, according to Philo, but her priority is masculine; so the Wisdom of God is both masculine and feminine (Fug. 50-52). Wisdom flows from the Divine Logos (Fug. 137-138). The Logos is the Cupbearer of God. He pours himself into happy souls (Somn. 2.249). The immortal part of the soul comes from the divine breath of the Father/Ruler as a part of his Logos.
Philo of Alexandria*[Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy]

 

[Shermana]

1. I said quote the First commandment in its exact form.

2. How did you say the opposite? You said the modern use of the word "Worship" somehow makes the original use of "Bow down to" different.

3. What is a "false god? exactly? Why are angels referred to as gods in Psalm 136 and 82 and "Sons of god? such as in Job? Who is "The god of this world" in 2 Cor 4:4?


4. Why would Philo have been branded a heretic for calling the Logos the Archangel/highest of the "gods" under God?

 

[kepha31]

1. I said quote the First commandment in its exact form.

Maybe you should, since it's your argument about the meaning of "gods".

2. How did you say the opposite? You said the modern use of the word "Worship" somehow makes the original use of "Bow down to" different.

I gave quotes from the Bible where bowing does not mean worship, in the modern or ancient usage. You claim all bowing is worship. Face it...you are wrong.

3. What is a "false god? exactly? Why are angels referred to as gods in Psalm 136 and 82 and "Sons of god? such as in Job? Who is "The god of this world" in 2 Cor 4:4?

Regardless of how you interpret it, God the Father is not just one of the guys, and he is not equated with the god of this world. Obviously, "god" has several meanings and you blaspheme God by equating him with Satan. I am a "son of God" by divine affiliation. That means I am his son, as He calls all humanity to share in his very divine life. That does not make me equal with God, it makes me his child.

4. Why would Philo have been branded a heretic for calling the Logos the Archangel/highest of the "gods" under God?

Philo would have been branded a heretic if he held to your polytheism, which he does not. You are reading Mormonism into the text where it doesn't exist.

 

[Shermana]

What do you mean you gave quotes that says "Bowing does not mean Worship", that is presupposing the modern definition. All bow down means is bow down to. That's the point. If a man bows to another man, it's not like he's bowing to God as God. Bow down means bow down. The modern word "Worship" has been corrupted with philosophical interpolations.

Here is the first commandment:

"New International Version (©1984)
"You shall have no other gods before me."

Nothing about worship or bowing there. The context of "You shall have no god" means "You shall not call any being the God you follow and sacrifice to". The word "before" means "Over" and "above". Thus, you cannot hold any god as higher than Yah.

Second commandment says not to make 3d images and bow to them.

What you're looking for is THIS:

Exodus 34:14 Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

The word "Worship" only means "bow to". However, angels, which are called "Elohim", are bowed to. So there's a problem here...unless you read the context of Exodus 34:15, which implies that these false gods are worshipped AS GOD as in sacrifices are made to them and a whole covenant is made.

And that's a nice dodge out of 2 Cor 4:4.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I'm not sure what you're getting at. I have looked at multiple translations of 1John 5:20 and none of them reveal Yeshua to be "God". anthony55 is focused on a portion of that verse and that focus has him reading the verse out of context with no understanding as to what is being said and who is being referenced throughout the verse. Revelation 3:12 speaks for itself in every translation. The biblical Yeshua mentions 4 times in one verse he has a god. Revelation 4 and 5 show The Lamb (Yeshua) "standing" in the midst of the 24 elders while "God" is seated upon the throne with the sealed scroll in his hand. The one true god the biblical Yeshua referred to was his god, the one that "sent" him. In order to be sent there must have been a sender.

Did you notice at Rev [3v21] there is more than one throne mentioned?
Why would one person need two thrones unless he is not one person.
-Matt 19v28; Luke 22v30

 

[earlwooters]

If you have to ask the question "who is the only true God" , then it implies that you believe that there is more than one God, and only one of them is the "true God". It is a question only a person who is unsure or confused would ask.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

If you have to ask the question "who is the only true God" , then it implies that you believe that there is more than one God, and only one of them is the "true God". It is a question only a person who is unsure or confused would ask.

According to Scripture there are many gods and many lords.-1Cor8v5
Some peoples god is even their belly.-Phil 3v19
Satan is even called god. God of this world of badness -2Cor4v4

Paul wrote [1Cor 8v6] for us there is but one God the Father 'and' one Lord Jesus Christ. The one true God would be the Father. His Son being our Lord.
-Psalm 110v1

 

[Shermana]

According to Scripture there are many gods and many lords.-1Cor8v5
Some peoples god is even their belly.-Phil 3v19
Satan is even called god. God of this world of badness -2Cor4v4

Paul wrote [1Cor 8v6] for us there is but one God the Father 'and' one Lord Jesus Christ. The one true God would be the Father. His Son being our Lord.
-Psalm 110v1

The word "en" can mean 'by" or "in front of", so the concept is in 3:21 is "I have been seated by his throne", not on. It CAN be used for "on", but the context in this case is clearly "by". It can mean "before" as well, such as "beside" or "With" in the sense of "near".

 

[Dirty Penguin]

1John 5:20
New International Version (©1984)
We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true--even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

New Living Translation (©2007)
And we know that the Son of God has come, and he has given us understanding so that we can know the true God. And now we live in fellowship with the true God because we live in fellowship with his Son, Jesus Christ. He is the only true God, and he is eternal life.
English Standard Version (©2001)
And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
International Standard Version (©2008)
We also know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding so that we may know the true God. We are in union with the one who is true, his Son Jesus the Messiah, who is the true God and eternal life.
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
We know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding so that we know the real God. We are in the one who is real, his Son Jesus Christ. This Jesus Christ is the real God and eternal life.
King James Bible
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
American King James Version
And we know that the Son of God is come, and has given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
American Standard Version
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
Bible in Basic English
And we are certain that the Son of God has come, and has given us a clear vision, so that we may see him who is true, and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And we know that the Son of God is come: and he hath given us understanding that we may know the true God, and may be in his true Son. This is the true God and life eternal.
Darby Bible Translation
And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us an understanding that we should know him that is true; and we are in him that is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
English Revised Version
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
Webster's Bible Translation
And we know that the Son of God hath come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
Weymouth New Testament
And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we know the true One, and are in union with the true One--that is, we are in union with His Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and the Life of the Ages.
World English Bible
We know that the Son of God has come, and has given us an understanding, that we know him who is true, and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. Young's Literal Translation
and we have known that the Son of God is come, and hath given us a mind, that we may know Him who is true, and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ; this one is the true God and the life age-during!
1 John 5:20 We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true--even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

None of these translations change my position on the matter. In context they are separate. Reading the Greek they are separate.

Jesus and God are one and the same. Then Rev. 3:12 makes sense.

No it doesn't. This is strictly from the mind of a trinitarian. "God", nowhere in your scriptures, ever reveal he has a god. The biblical Yeshua knew he had a god and he saw himself separate from his god.

John 14:23
Yeshua replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

No, it says , "...my God"

Exactly, which means he has a god. "My" is possessive.

Sent, but not created.

In order to be sent there must be a sender. I didn't say created.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Did you notice at Rev [3v21] there is more than one throne mentioned?
Why would one person need two thrones unless he is not one person.
-Matt 19v28; Luke 22v30

I've seen Rev. 3:21 before and have used it before. It's peculiar how they assume there is only one throne. Even the elders that are mentioned are sitting upon their own throne. The same Greek word for "God's" throne is used for the elders as well.

 

[zorrro]

I like your logic. Your right the trinity was decided upon when one church cleric Beat another Cleric to death at the council of Nicea while Constantine presided. Now quote scripture on that - and it appears that the one who kicks and hits the hardest will have his way in theology. Totally wrong. Jesus is not God almighty. This Stephen saw in the heavens as he was dying.