Who Or What Is Christian?

[servant1]

We aren't talking about people who worship Shiva. We are talking about people who worship the Creator.

Few on earth know him.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Few on earth know him.

ROFL and how would you know that? Are you psychic? Can you see their hearts? All you have to go on is what they say about themselves. Unless you have direct evidence that they are lying, their remarks stand. A religious doctrine is not evidence.

 

[Elihoenai]

No sir. As much as I adore the Lord of the Rings, it is not a divine book. Tolkien used his own religious background, his life experiences, his own culture, his own knowledge as a philologist, his own education in myth, and mostly, his own imagination to write the books. God did not dictate the text to him.

Tolkien Quote:

"The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like “religion,” to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism. However that is very clumsily put, and sounds more self-important than I feel. For as a matter of fact, I have consciously planned very little; and should chiefly be grateful for having been brought up (since I was eight) in a Faith that has nourished me and taught me all the little that I know."


Given that Roman Catholics Believe they Have the Holy Spirit than Tolkien and other Roman Catholics Take For Granted that The Lord of the Rings is a Divine Book. Does any Roman Catholics on these forums want to Confirm that The Lord of the Rings is a Divine Book?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Tolkien Quote:

"The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like “religion,” to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism. However that is very clumsily put, and sounds more self-important than I feel. For as a matter of fact, I have consciously planned very little; and should chiefly be grateful for having been brought up (since I was eight) in a Faith that has nourished me and taught me all the little that I know."


Given that Roman Catholics Believe they Have the Holy Spirit than Tolkien and other Roman Catholics Take For Granted that The Lord of the Rings is a Divine Book. Does any Roman Catholics on these forums want to Confirm that The Lord of the Rings is a Divine Book?

You are misrepresenting Catholics. They believe they have the holy spirit, but they do NOT teach that this means everything they write is a divine text.

When we say that the LOTR is a catholic book, it means that Tolkien inserts Catholic values and cosmology. It in no way means that it is a divine text.

 

[servant1]

ROFL and how would you know that? Are you psychic? Can you see their hearts? All you have to go on is what they say about themselves. Unless you have direct evidence that they are lying, their remarks stand. A religious doctrine is not evidence.

All translations with Gods name removed in over 7000 places was done by satans will to mislead all using them. Those religions using them teach a false Jesus. God willed his name in his bible version over 7000 places. Jerome removed it in OT( nearly 6800 spots) and replaced it with GOD or LORD all capitols. Over 200 spots are quoted in NT where the name belongs.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

All translations with Gods name removed in over 7000 places was done by satans will to mislead all using them.

The reason that God's sacred name is changed to LORD in English translations is for two reasons.

1. Because we don't know how it was pronounced. In ancient Hebrew, there were no vowel points and the knowledge of how to pronounce which had been passed on orally was lost after the destruction of the Temple. We have four consonant sounds, yod hey vav hey, which transliterate as YHWH. It could be Yihuweho, or Yohiwhu or any number of possibilities.

2. Jewish tradition is to show enormous respect for the divine name, and not to use it casually, in order to keep the commandment not to use God's name in vain. Since translations are merely translations, and not the actual text, the yod hey vav hey is rendered as LORD, usually in all caps so that the reader is alerted that this is the yod hey vav hey.

When LORD is used in translations, this is NOT the same as "removing" God's name, since all of these translators do NOT remove the yod hey vav hey from the actual Hebrew text.

And FWIW, Jews were translating the yod hey vav hey as Lord LONG before Jerome.. If you check the Septuagint, in those places where the yod hey vav hey is in the hebrew text, translated as Κύριος (Kyrios). This word means "Lord."

 

[servant1]

The reason that God's sacred name is changed to LORD in English translations is for two reasons.

1. Because we don't know how it was pronounced. In ancient Hebrew, there were no vowel points and the knowledge of how to pronounce which had been passed on orally was lost after the destruction of the Temple. We have four consonant sounds, yod hey vav hey, which transliterate as YHWH. It could be Yihuweho, or Yohiwhu or any number of possibilities.

2. Jewish tradition is to show enormous respect for the divine name, and not to use it casually, in order to keep the commandment not to use God's name in vain. Since translations are merely translations, and not the actual text, the yod hey vav hey is rendered as LORD, usually in all caps so that the reader is alerted that this is the yod hey vav hey.

When LORD is used in translations, this is NOT the same as "removing" God's name, since all of these translators do NOT remove the yod hey vav hey from the actual Hebrew text.

And FWIW, Jews were translating the yod hey vav hey as Lord LONG before Jerome.. If you check the Septuagint, in those places where the yod hey vav hey is in the hebrew text, translated as Κύριος (Kyrios). This word means "Lord."

Fact--Only the wicked fear using Gods name in vain. The righteous love Gods name, they follow the example of Jesus who taught it(John 17:6) and promised to keep on making it known( John 17:26) as well in the Lords prayer shows all his Fathers name is the most important #1 issue for all involved. It was Jerome who removed it( Catholicism) not the Israelites.
I would say the septuagint used now was translated out of Jeromes latin vulgate. Catholicism kept the bible in latin until at least the 1300,s, hardly any could read latin. When the protestants translated they used Catholicism translating--how sad. It misleads all to not enter Gods kingdom.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Fact--Only the wicked fear using Gods name in vain.

Actually, it's the opposite.

 

[servant1]

Actually, it's the opposite.

You must not know the bible. Why would the righteous fear using it? Why would God put it in his bible over 7000 places if he didn't want it used?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

You must not know the bible.

Ah, yet another Christian who thinks they can read my mind, and miserably fails. Learn: just because someone disagrees with you is no indicator that they haven't studied the material.

Why would the righteous fear using it?

That's why they are righteous.

Why would God put it in his bible over 7000 places if he didn't want it used?

Well, we have a significant difference in view here. You think "God wrote it." I see that the Bible is written by many different men, not God. These men did the very best they could to represent what they believed God would say. But being humans, they made errors. Their thinking was influenced by their culture and personal biases.

 

[Ebionite]

1. Because we don't know how it was pronounced.

But you know how YHWDH is pronounced right? All you have to do is to remove the D.

2. Jewish tradition is to show enormous respect for the divine name, and not to use it casually, in order to keep the commandment not to use God's name in vain.

This is nothing more than tradition, and the name of Elohim is something different. The name is meant to be known and declared.

And YHWH said unto Moses, Rise up early in the morning, and stand before Pharaoh, and say unto him, Thus saith YHWH Elah of the Hebrews, Let my people go, that they may serve me.
For I will at this time send all my plagues upon thine heart, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people; that thou mayest know that [there is] none like me in all the earth.
For now I will stretch out my hand, that I may smite thee and thy people with pestilence; and thou shalt be cut off from the earth.
And in very deed for this [cause] have I raised thee up, for to shew [in] thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.
Exodus 9:13-16

 

[Elihoenai]

You are misrepresenting Catholics. They believe they have the holy spirit, but they do NOT teach that this means everything they write is a divine text.

When we say that the LOTR is a catholic book, it means that Tolkien inserts Catholic values and cosmology. It in no way means that it is a divine text.

When a Christian has the Holy Spirit Everything that they Write, Speak and Do is Dictated by Elohim's/God's Holy Spirit. Do Roman Catholics hold a Different Belief about the Power of Holy Spirit? Let's have a look.

How Mature was Tolkien's Relationship with the Holy Spirit? If Tolkien had a Mature Relationship with the Holy Spirit Every Word Written in The Lord of the Rings is Divinely Inspired.

Christians that have a Mature Relationship with the Holy Spirit Write Holy Scriptures!


The Holy Spirit in the Life of Catholics - Jeff Cavins

 

[servant1]

Ah, yet another Christian who thinks they can read my mind, and miserably fails. Learn: just because someone disagrees with you is no indicator that they haven't studied the material.

That's why they are righteous.

Well, we have a significant difference in view here. You think "God wrote it." I see that the Bible is written by many different men, not God. These men did the very best they could to represent what they believed God would say. But being humans, they made errors. Their thinking was influenced by their culture and personal biases.

Yes God through holy spirit inspired righteous men to write his words down. When The great apostasy stood up= the religion that came out of Rome=Catholicism=2Thess 2:3--they altered the bible to mislead. To mislead to seek Jesus' righteousness first over Jehovah's as Jesus taught to seek first. They removed Gods name by satans will. Jesus was never with that religion. The protestants tried to fix things but only had Catholicism translating to go by so they failed.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

When a Christian has the Holy Spirit Everything that they Write, Speak and Do is Dictated by Elohim's/God's Holy Spirit. Do Roman Catholics hold a Different Belief about the Power of Holy Spirit? Let's have a look.

How Mature was Tolkien's Relationship with the Holy Spirit? If Tolkien had a Mature Relationship with the Holy Spirit Every Word Written in The Lord of the Rings is Divinely Inspired.

Christians that have a Mature Relationship with the Holy Spirit Write Holy Scriptures!


The Holy Spirit in the Life of Catholics - Jeff Cavins

I actually did listen to your entire video (something I almost never do). All of the things he said line up with the things Catholics have always told me.

My problem is not with your source, but your misunderstanding the source. He is not saying that whatever he writes, says, or does is divine. When he speaks of being "led by the holy spirit," he is NOT putting his internal nudgings on par with his Bible or the ecunmenical councils. In fact, he specifically mentions how it can be difficult to determine when it is the holy spirit "speaking," and when it is just his own thoughts and emotions.

To put it bluntly, the ONLY things Catholics believe are so reliable that they are valid in determining dogma are the Bible and the decisions of ecumenical councils. Tolkien believed this too. He is rolling over in his grave that you would put the LOTR on par with the Bible.

I think maybe a Catholic might be better at explaining this to you, perhaps @metis or some other.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

But you know how YHWDH is pronounced right? All you have to do is to remove the D.

Your logic is extremely flawed. It is in fact quite common for Hebrew words that share the same root word to have different vowels used, making the pronunciation different. For example:

כתב (katav): This means "he wrote."
כתיבה (ktivah): This means "writing."
Both words share the root כ-ת-ב (k-t-v), which relates to writing, but the different vowel patterns lead to different meanings.

למד (lamad): This means "he learned" or "to learn."
למידה (lemidah): This means "learning" or "study."
Both share the root ל-מ-ד (l-m-d), relating to learning or education, but the different vowel patterns create distinct meanings.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Is Being Christian about Genetics in the same way Jews are Jewish by Inheritance?

Its about the same, since parents in each try to infuse the holy spirit into their children, and converts can be from any group. Possibly one thing that is heritable is the butcher job of Levi which is passed down; but its unclear what a 'Line' of descendants is composed of. Obviously a line can contain adoptions. In Levi's case its possibly the same. Additionally a Jewish person is commanded to reject any children that won't be obedient, so the genetic idea is not accurate. It is about learning not about blood similar to how Christians today do things, but it is a lot of learning not just a little. This where is Jews and Christians mostly differ when it comes to converts. A Christian convert or child born to parents has some things to learn but not anything like the burden a Jewish convert or child has. That is the actual 'Line' when talking about the line of David.

 

[Ebionite]

Your logic is extremely flawed.

No, I never suggested that YHWH and YHWDH have the same meaning.

 

[ImBored]

I believe what is said in the Bible.

In Bible Christian is defined as a disciple of Jesus, a person who remains in word of Jesus. Getting plastered doesn't necessary mean one is not a Christian. But, I think Christian should not get plastered.

I don't think I am right person to say. But, if they don't remain in word of Jesus, they are not.

Remains in the world of Jesus?? Ok so as anyone who has studied ancient history is aware Christianity is a mix a Ancient Roman mythology and norce mythology St Augustine Stole laws from the Roman region to justify war killing apox 100 million people "so add mass murder and genocide to being a Christian" A lot of the stories about Jesus are just taken from Norse mythology with different environmental settings. So if all this is in ur gods name that's one hell of a god

 

[YoursTrue]

Remains in the world of Jesus?? Ok so as anyone who has studied ancient history is aware Christianity is a mix a Ancient Roman mythology and norce mythology St Augustine Stole laws from the Roman region to justify war killing apox 100 million people "so add mass murder and genocide to being a Christian" A lot of the stories about Jesus are just taken from Norse mythology with different environmental settings. So if all this is in ur gods name that's one hell of a god

Not all would agree. It has been said that Christianity developed in the Roman Empire, which may explain some cultural overlaps in stories and imagery, but the core theology is distinct.

 

[Elihoenai]

I actually did listen to your entire video (something I almost never do). All of the things he said line up with the things Catholics have always told me.

My problem is not with your source, but your misunderstanding the source. He is not saying that whatever he writes, says, or does is divine. When he speaks of being "led by the holy spirit," he is NOT putting his internal nudgings on par with his Bible or the ecunmenical councils. In fact, he specifically mentions how it can be difficult to determine when it is the holy spirit "speaking," and when it is just his own thoughts and emotions.

To put it bluntly, the ONLY things Catholics believe are so reliable that they are valid in determining dogma are the Bible and the decisions of ecumenical councils. Tolkien believed this too. He is rolling over in his grave that you would put the LOTR on par with the Bible.

I think maybe a Catholic might be better at explaining this to you, perhaps @metis or some other.

Here is another Roman Catholic on the Holy Spirit:


My Catholic Life!

Where Do We Meet the Holy Spirit?

"...The human author of each book of the Scriptures, as explained in Chapter 1, is a true author of the Holy Scriptures. Through that person, each particular book of the Scriptures was written. The human author’s unique personality and experiences shine through. But the human author is not the only one writing the book or letter. We also profess that the human author wrote under the guidance and inspiration of the Holy Spirit! It was the Spirit who guided each word revealing what He wanted written. It was a joint effort and 100% of both their works. This shows the power of the Holy Spirit to act in us and to use us as instruments. Yes, He acted in a very unique and powerful way when He inspired the human authors of the Scriptures in their writings. This is not something the Holy Spirit will do again, inspiring more Scripture to be written. But the fact that the human author was inspired and was used as such a powerful instrument should tell us not only much about this wonderful gift of the Bible, it should also tell us much about the fact that the Holy Spirit wants to use us humans for divine work. He wants to inspire each and every one of us for a powerful work He has given only to us. Not in the same way that He once inspired the books of the Bible, but certainly in powerful ways nonetheless. When this is properly understood, we should be in awe and greatly anticipate what God has in mind for us while we travel this pilgrimage on earth!..."

Chapter 6 - The Holy Spirit

A summary of the Apostles’ and Nicene Creeds. This volume looks at everything from the creation of the world to God’s eternal plan of salvation. Other topics include: The afterlife, the Trinity, saints, our Blessed Mother, faith, and the Church.

mycatholic.life

From a Christian Gnostic perspective those that have the Same Religious Experience as the Priests, Prophets, Disciples and Apostles through the Holy Spirit Write Holy Scriptures. The Divine Inspiration of the Holy Scriptures/Bible is Not Limited to a particular Era. The Holy Spirit is Not bound by Time. Given that I'm Filled With the Holy Spirit these Writings are Holy Scriptures.

I don't know Tolkien's level of Relationship with the Holy Spirit. If Tolkien Wrote The Lord of the Rings in the Flesh than The Lord of the Rings is Elohim's/God's Manifestation in Flesh Form. Elohim/God is Flesh, Soul and Spirit. Elohim/God is All Things, The Good and the Evil.