Who Or What Is Israel?

[metis]

Zionism has never been a uniform movement. Its leaders, parties, and ideologies frequently diverged from one another. Compromises and concessions were made in order to achieve a shared cultural and political objective as a result of the growing antisemitism and yearning to return to the "ancestral" country. A variety of types of Zionism have emerged, with a more fundamental difference betwee cultural, political, and religious Zionism, and with approaches including liberal, labor, and revisionist Zionism. Advocates of Zionism view it as a national liberation movement for the repatriation of an indigenous people (which were subject to persecution and share a national identity through national consciousness), to the homeland of their ancestors as noted in ancient history.[21][22][23] Similarly, anti-Zionism has many aspects, which include criticism of Zionism as a colonialist,[24] racist,[25] or exceptionalist ideology or movement (through settler colonialism).[26][27][28][29][30] Proponents of Zionism do not necessarily reject the characterization of Zionism as settler-colonial or exceptionalist... -- Zionism - Wikipedia

 

[Link]

Might be off-topic, but:

I believe Israel was a nickname given to Yaqoub (a) but it's not a unique title he has. Bani Israel was a term that referred to believers of the Ahlulbayt of Ibrahim (a) waiting for Musa (a) to come when they were oppressed.

Bani-Ismail and bani-Israel are used interchangeably in sermon of Imam Ali (a). I don't think it was literally descendants of Jacob (a) that were the people waiting for Musa (a) per Quran. And I don't think Arabs are all offspring of Ismail (a) and believe this to be scientifically impossible as well but won't discuss the science of the genetics in this regard.

Heck, they weren't even all offspring of Nuh (a) let alone Ibrahim (a) let alone Yaqoub (a). Rather, Quran says offspring of those who we carried with Nuh (a).

In hadith, it's said you can be spiritual born out of the Ahlulbayt (a) or the Imam of time. The Quran similarly quotes Ibrahim (a) says "who follows me, then he is from me" and Talut (a) says similar to those who won't drink of the river.

The term "Israel" is a title for Yaqoub (a) but applies to all chosen guides from God in my view.

Why weren't they called Bani-Ibrahim? I think it's because Yusuf (a) was accepted by Egyptians oppressing the bani-Israel, and they wouldn't want to emphasis they follow Yusuf (a) who to them was the last Messenger God would ever send. They believe Pharaoh was incarnation of God, and so they wouldn't emphasize that Bani-Israel followed Yusuf (a) nor would they acknowledge Prophets after Yusuf (a) starting with Benjamin (a).

So this is why the term stoke to them most likely in my view.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Herzl is a Jew and some degree religious. The Zionist movement is a religious Jewish movement, and yes the Jews vary in their beliefs. Secular by definition does not refer to religious movements,

Secular means not religious. Herzl was an assimilated Jew who even considered becoming Catholic at one point so that he would be completely assimilated. He did not practice Judaism. Herzl took up the Zionist cause because even after a hundred years of emancipation of Jews in France, antisemites still falsely accused and convicted Dreyfus. The crowds outside weren't shouting Death to Dreyfus -- they were shouting Death to the Jews. Herzl realized at that point that Jews were NEVER going to be free from antisemitism as long as they lived in Gentile countries. The only way for Jews to get a fair shake was for us to have our own country. That's not a religious argument in the slightest -- that's a SECULAR argument for Zionism.

 

[shunyadragon]

Secular means not religious.

True, but Judaism is a religion and Zionism is a religious movement, therefore not secular.

Herzl was an assimilated Jew who even considered becoming Catholic at one point so that he would be completely assimilated. He did not practice Judaism. Herzl took up the Zionist cause because even after a hundred years of emancipation of Jews in France, antisemites still falsely accused and convicted Dreyfus. The crowds outside weren't shouting Death to Dreyfus -- they were shouting Death to the Jews. Herzl realized at that point that Jews were NEVER going to be free from antisemitism as long as they lived in Gentile countries. The only way for Jews to get a fair shake was for us to have our own country. That's not a religious argument in the slightest -- that's a SECULAR argument for Zionism.

I could care less about Herzl or individual variations of Jewish beliefs. Judaism is a religion, and Zionism is a religious movement, therefore not secular by definition. You can't just make up a definition to suit your agenda. The fact that some believers in any religion are less religious than others does not change the definition as to what is a religious movement.

It was common for some Jews to consider or even convert to Christianity for various reasons especially to about the isolation and persecution in Christian Europe, So what? Herzi remained a Jew and believed and promoted the establishment of a Jewish State.

Regardless of his beliefs his goal was clear: Zionism - Wikipedia

Theodor Herzl was the founder of the Modern Zionist movement. In his 1896 pamphlet Der Judenstaat, he envisioned the founding of a future independent Jewish state during the 20th century.

There are more issues her I cited in references and your reference that you are not responding to,

This may be an indirect indication of where you may be coming from, when I spent some time in Israel it was common in conversations that Jews told me Judaism is not a religion.

 

[shunyadragon]

Zionism has never been a uniform movement. Its leaders, parties, and ideologies frequently diverged from one another. Compromises and concessions were made in order to achieve a shared cultural and political objective as a result of the growing antisemitism and yearning to return to the "ancestral" country. A variety of types of Zionism have emerged, with a more fundamental difference betwee cultural, political, and religious Zionism, and with approaches including liberal, labor, and revisionist Zionism. Advocates of Zionism view it as a national liberation movement for the repatriation of an indigenous people (which were subject to persecution and share a national identity through national consciousness), to the homeland of their ancestors as noted in ancient history.[21][22][23] Similarly, anti-Zionism has many aspects, which include criticism of Zionism as a colonialist,[24] racist,[25] or exceptionalist ideology or movement (through settler colonialism).[26][27][28][29][30] Proponents of Zionism do not necessarily reject the characterization of Zionism as settler-colonial or exceptionalist... -- Zionism - Wikipedia

This is true for Judaism and the variation in all religions and religious movements are not uniform in the individual beliefs, It remains that Judaism is a religion, and Zionism is a religious movement based on definitions and not secular. You have mentioned several religious factors in the above that confirm this.

 

[metis]

This is true for Judaism and the variation in all religions and religious movements are not uniform in the individual beliefs, It remains that Judaism is a religion, and Zionism is a religious movement based on definitions and not secular. You have mentioned several religious factors in the above that confirm this.

It is part of the story but not the entire story as both religious and secular wanted the right of return, especially after the Holocaust that killed both religious and secular Jews.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

True, but Judaism is a religion and Zionism is a religious movement, therefore not secular.


I could care less about Herzl or individual variations of Jewish beliefs. Judaism is a religion, and Zionism is a religious movement, there for not secular by definition. You can't just make up a definition to suit your agenda. The fact that some believers in any religion are less religious than others does not change the definition as to what is a religious movement.

Regardless of his beliefs his goal was clear: Zionism - Wikipedia

Theodor Herzl was the founder of the Modern Zionist movement. In his 1896 pamphlet Der Judenstaat, he envisioned the founding of a future independent Jewish state during the 20th century.

There are more issues her I cited in references and your reference that you are not responding to,

This may be an indirect indication of where you may be coming from, when I spent some time in Israel it was common in conversations that Jews told me Judaism is not a religion.

It amazes me that you are so stubborn about this. I gave you the standard non-religious, secular argument for Zionism. Yet you continue to insist that only religious Zionism exists. Religious Zionism is the belief that the belongs to the Jews because God gave it to us, an argument NOT accepted by secular Zionists. By YOUR OWN DEFINTIION, secular Zionism exists, since you define secular as being that which is without religion, and the argument I gave you was secular, not religious. I have no clue where your emotional investment in calling it a religious movement is coming from, but clearly you are not open to rational discussion. I will be moving on now. You can have the last word if you wish.

 

[shunyadragon]

It amazes me that you are so stubborn about this. I gave you the standard non-religious, secular argument for Zionism. Yet you continue to insist that only religious Zionism exists. Religious Zionism is the belief that the belongs to the Jews because God gave it to us, an argument NOT accepted by secular Zionists. By YOUR OWN DEFINTIION, secular Zionism exists, since you define secular as being that which is without religion, and the argument I gave you was secular, not religious. I have no clue what your emotional investment in calling it a religious movement is coming from, but clearly you are not open to rational discussion. I will be moving on now. You can have the last word if you wish.

It amazes me that you are so stubborn about this, and ignoring the references and facts I cited that are specific to Israel not being a Jewish State for Jews only. Nothing you have cited even fits the accepted plain English definition of secular. It simply means having no relationship to religion or anything religious. Zionism is a religious movement to establish the Jewish State for Jews only. There is nothing secular about this by definition.

 

[Elihoenai]

For those with access

Secularism, in Israel:Religious and Sociological Dimensions​

is well written and reasonably comprehensive. Unfortunately, this likely means that neither @IndigoChild5559 nor @shunyadragon will appreciate it.

========

See, also

​

Yes, Israel is Becoming More Religious​

Isaiah 29:16

16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

Isaiah 43:1

43 But now thus saith the Lord that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.


Israel does Not Exist Without the Religion of the Elohim/God of Israel. The Religion of the Elohim/God of Israel Creates Israel. That's why it is Impossible for Apostates and Atheists to be Israel.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Isaiah 29:16 ...

Isaiah 43:1...

Israel does Not Exist Without the Religion of the Elohim/God of Israel. The Religion of the Elohim/God of Israel Creates Israel. That's why it is Impossible for Apostates and Atheists to be Israel.

nonsense

 

[metis]

Zionism is a religious movement to establish the Jewish State for Jews only. There is nothing secular about this by definition.

"Jew" is not synonymous with "Judaism", and "Zionism" was and is manifest within both the religious and the secular.

 

[Bthoth]

"Jew" is not synonymous with "Judaism",

OH really? Then what is the term Jew based on?

and "Zionism" was and is manifest within both the religious and the secular.

The majority of zionist on this earth are christians and it is focally based on religion.

 

[metis]

OH really? Then what is the term Jew based on?

The term "Jew" is derived from the Hebrew word יְהוּדִי Yehudi, with the plural יְהוּדִים Yehudim.[57] Endonyms in other Jewish languages include the Ladino ג׳ודיו Djudio (plural ג׳ודיוס, Djudios) and the Yiddish ייִד Yid (plural ייִדן Yidn). Originally, it is used to describe the inhabitants of the Israelite kingdom of Judah.[58] It is also used to distinguish their descendants from the gentiles and the Samaritans.[59]-- Jews - Wikipedia

The majority of zionist on this earth are christians and it is focally based on religion.

Zionism (/ˈzaɪəˌnɪzəm/; Hebrew: צִיּוֹנוּת Tsīyyonūt, [tsijoˈnut]; derived from Zion) is a nationalist[fn 1] movement that emerged in the 19th century to enable the establishment of a homeland for the Jewish people in Palestine,[3][4][5][6] a region roughly corresponding to the Land of Israel in Jewish tradition.[7][8][9][10] Following the establishment of the modern state of Israel, Zionism became an ideology that supports the development and protection of the State of Israel as a Jewish state.[11][12] -- Zionism - Wikipedia

 

[Bthoth]

The term "Jew" is derived from the Hebrew word יְהוּדִי Yehudi, with the plural יְהוּדִים Yehudim.[57] Endonyms in other Jewish languages include the Ladino ג׳ודיו Djudio (plural ג׳ודיוס, Djudios) and the Yiddish ייִד Yid (plural ייִדן Yidn). Originally, it is used to describe the inhabitants of the Israelite kingdom of Judah.[58] It is also used to distinguish their descendants from the gentiles and the Samaritans.[59]-- Jews - Wikipedia

OK... wiki...

Israel began in 1948. The Jews of the atrocity of ww2 did not live in any judah or kingdom of judah. So why where they hated so bad?

Zionism (/ˈzaɪəˌnɪzəm/; Hebrew: צִיּוֹנוּת Tsīyyonūt, [tsijoˈnut]; derived from Zion) is a nationalist[fn 1] movement that emerged in the 19th century to enable the establishment of a homeland for the Jewish people in Palestine,[3][4][5][6] a region roughly corresponding to the Land of Israel in Jewish tradition.[7][8][9][10] Following the establishment of the modern state of Israel, Zionism became an ideology that supports the development and protection of the State of Israel as a Jewish state.[11][12] -- Zionism - Wikipedia

No, Herzl (father of zionism) said that the Jewish homeland could be anywhere and even mentioned south africa and argentina in his publications.

How can you use Jewish traditions as a source and not consider Jews as synonymous to Judaism?

 

[metis]

How can you use Jewish traditions as a source and not consider Jews as synonymous to Judaism?

Maybe because I study and that I also was a member of a synagogue {Reform} for over 20 years and taught in it.

 

[Bthoth]

Maybe because I study and that I also was a member of a synagogue {Reform} for over 20 years and taught in it.

syn·a·gogue
/ˈsinəˌɡäɡ/
noun

1. the building where a Jewish assembly or congregation meets for religious worship and instruction.

Synagogue is a religious entity for Judaism. Agreed?

Are you teaching Jews that they are not of judaism?

Supporting israel is not what makes a person Jewish!

The topic is who or what is israel?

Israel is a state, born in 1948..............

 

[metis]

syn·a·gogue
/ˈsinəˌɡäɡ/
noun

1. the building where a Jewish assembly or congregation meets for religious worship and instruction.

Synagogue is a religious entity for Judaism. Agreed?

Are you teaching Jews that they are not of judaism?

Supporting israel is not what makes a person Jewish!

The topic is who or what is israel?

Israel is a state, born in 1948..............

I've seen enough.

 

[shunyadragon]

"Jew" is not synonymous with "Judaism", and "Zionism" was and is manifest within both the religious and the secular.

Disagree big time. Lets deal with plain English and religious definitions and not opinions,

Jew - Google Search

Jew - a member of the people and cultural community whose traditional religion is Judaism and who trace their origins through the ancient Hebrew people of Israel to Abraham.

You cannot separate Zionism from Judaism and the goal of the establishment of the promised Jewish traditional homeland in what was Palestine.

Again . . . to describe something as secular by definition as not related to a religion would be a contradiction.

Israel is NOT recognized as a secular state by international standards as previously cited.

If not a religious state how would you describe a Jewish Nation for Jews only?

Facts: (1) Israelis defined as a Jewish State for Jews only. (2) Immigration to Israel is restricted to Jews only or thier descendents as defined by the "LAw of the Return."(3) Non-Jewish citizens of Israel do not have the same rights as Jewish citizens,

Zionism

www.adl.org

Zionism is the movement for the self-determination and statehood for the Jewish people in their ancestral homeland, the land of Israel. The vast majority of Jews around the world feel a connection or kinship with Israel, whether or not they explicitly identify as Zionists, and regardless of their opinions on the policies of the Israeli government.

There is also what is called Religious Zionism believed by Orthodox Jews, but it cannot in reality be clearly distinguished from Zionism, Over time in Israel the Orthodox Jews are becoming increasingly powerful and are granted special status by the government.

You as some others are making artificial boundaries as to how religious believers are in any religion. Even though Herzi was not a practicing deeply religious JEw if asked he would say he was Jewish. This true of other religions like Christianity or Islam where one may not be a practicing believer when asked the would say that they were a Christian or Muslim. The variation between the 'degree' of belief in any given religion is too vague and ambiguous for you to make an artificial distinction,

 

[Bthoth]

I've seen enough.

You can use wiki, but i cannot?

Are you are just frustrated for not being the word of god?

 

[Bthoth]

Disagree big time. Lets deal with plain English and religious definitions and not opinions,

Jew - Google Search

Jew - a member of the people and cultural community whose traditional religion is Judaism and who trace their origins through the ancient Hebrew people of Israel to Abraham.



You cannot separate Zionism from Judaism and the goal of the establishment of the promised Jewish traditional homeland in what was Palestine.

Again . . . to describe something as secular by definition as not related to a religion would be a contradiction.

Israel is NOT recognized as a secular state by international standards as previously cited.

If not a religious state how would you describe a Jewish Nation of Jews only?

Facts: (1) Israelis defined as a Jewish State for Jews only. (2) Immigration to Israel is restricted to Jews only or thier descendents as defined by the "LAw of the Return."(3) Non-Jewish citizens of Israel do not have the same rights as Jewish citizens,

Zionism

www.adl.org

Zionism is the movement for the self-determination and statehood for the Jewish people in their ancestral homeland, the land of Israel. The vast majority of Jews around the world feel a connection or kinship with Israel, whether or not they explicitly identify as Zionists, and regardless of their opinions on the policies of the Israeli government.

There is also what is called Religious Zionism believed by Orthodox Jews, but it cannot in reality be clearly distinguished from Zionism, Over time in Israel the Orthodox Jews are becoming increasingly powerful and are granted special status by the government.

You as some others are making artificial boundaries as to how religious believers are in any religion. Even though Herzi was not a practicing deeply religious JEw if asked he would say he was Jewish. This true of other religions like Christianity or Islam where one may not be a practicing believer when asked the would say that they were a Christian or Muslim. The variation between the 'degree' of belief in any given religion is too vague and ambiguous for you to make an artificial distinction,

I am wondering, if the respondent does not consider Jews as synonymous to judaism (the religion) then why would there be a topic on judaism as a religion and that Jews are the last word on the topic?

I have had a hard time with how some of the posters deny judaism as relevant when discussing the topic on Jews.