Who Or What Is Israel?

[shunyadragon]

Wikipedia defines Theonomy as follows:

Theonomy (from Greek theos "God" and nomos "law") is a hypothetical Christian form of government in which society is ruled by divine law. Theonomists hold that divine law, particularly the judicial laws of the Old Testament, should be observed by modern societies.

That does not even remotely describe Israel. Israel is NOT run by Jewish law. If someone wants to eat pork, no one is going to call the cops. It was founded by SECULAR Jews to be a SECULAR state. Israelis enjoy freedom of religion -- although the government shows a preference for Judaism (much like Denmark has Evangelical Lutheranism as its state church, and everyone agrees that Denmark is secular), all Israelis have the freedom to choose their religion, whether it be Christianity or Islam or anything else. If Jewish law prevailed in Israel, all the churches would be shut down.

The definition you cite is limited "hypothetically Christian?" does not address the issue. The definition does not limit the concept of Theonomy to Christian governments.

Israel does not support freedom of religion. For example ONLY Jews are allowed to immigrate to Israel. See bold, and post #800.

This is very misleading description. The bottomline is what I previously posted. Except for a very very rare case Jews DO NOT change their religion. Even those that convert to recent Messianic Jews consider themselves culturally Jews. It is not remotely like Denmark. Israel is NOT recognized as secular government. So if you disagree what form of government is it?

What I posted stands and you have not responded to it.

Yes, Israel is not a Theocracy. It is a Jewish Theonomy and not remotely a secular state. The Declaration of Independence of Israel blatantly declares it is a Jewish State, and immigration is Jews only. As far as the history of the government only Jews have occupied the positions of authority.

Secular state - Wikipedia​

en.wikipedia.org

A secular state is an idea pertaining to secularity, whereby a state is or purports to be officially neutral in matters of religion, supporting neither religion nor irreligion.[1] A secular state claims to treat all its citizens equally regardless of religion, and claims to avoid preferential treatment for a citizen based on their religious beliefs, affiliation or lack of either over those with other profiles.

Israel is not listed as a secular state.

See post #800 for further documentation.

 

[Elihoenai]

Genesis 32:30

30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Deuteronomy 34:10

10 And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face,


Still there are no members on these forums that has the Courage to address these Critical Question about the Identity Of Israel:

The Real Israel See Elohim/God Face to Face. Do you See Elohim/God Face to Face? If yes, what does it mean to See Elohim/God Face to Face?​

 

[shunyadragon]

Wikipedia defines Theonomy as follows:

Theonomy (from Greek theos "God" and nomos "law") is a hypothetical Christian form of government in which society is ruled by divine law. Theonomists hold that divine law, particularly the judicial laws of the Old Testament, should be observed by modern societies.

That does not even remotely describe Israel. Israel is NOT run by Jewish law. If someone wants to eat pork, no one is going to call the cops. It was founded by SECULAR Jews to be a SECULAR state. Israelis enjoy freedom of religion -- although the government shows a preference for Judaism (much like Denmark has Evangelical Lutheranism as its state church, and everyone agrees that Denmark is secular), all Israelis have the freedom to choose their religion, whether it be Christianity or Islam or anything else. If Jewish law prevailed in Israel, all the churches would be shut down.

The problem with the definition is strictly this type of government is impossible today that any government would follow strictly Torah Law. but as cited Israel follows in principle Tanakh principles and rituals and basic laws of the Tanakh such as Strict Sabbath/Shabbat Observance. in a Jewish State for Jews only.

For a better definition I describe it as a Reformed Jewish Thonomy.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

That's correct Israel is Not a Secular State.

Judaism is the Religious System of Israel with Strict Sabbath/Shabbat Observance.


SHABBAT IN JERUSALEM


"WHAT CHANGE DURING SHABBAT IN JERUSALEM?

In Jerusalem, Shabbat is a totally unique experience. Starting from early on Friday afternoon, businesses, shops, and most restaurants begin to close. Some non-Kosher restaurants remain open during Shabbat, as do a limited number of businesses in the West of the city.

Public transportation (buses and railway) do not run at all in Jerusalem during Shabbat, and all these services stop in the hours leading up to sunset. Shared taxis and private taxis continue to operate."

https://www.touristisrael.com/shabbat-in-jerusalem/11023/

Israel poised to have its most religious government; experts say no theocracy yet

Israel poised to have its most religious government; experts say no theocracy yet

Anticipated coalition likely to have major impact on religion and state issues, with reforms on kashrut certification, conversion and LGBT rights expected to be rolled back

www.timesofisrael.com

Israel does not enforce Jewish law on shabbat. While certain aspects of it are in place, such as the halt of the buses, which are run by religious groups and not by the government. But for example, there are no laws to throw you in jail if you i.e. choose to cook dinner on the Shabbat. For example, many cafes and bars in Tel Aviv are not only open on the Shabbat, but do their best business on that day.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Israel does not support freedom of religion. For example ONLY Jews are allowed to immigrate to Israel. See bold, and post #800.

This is the second time you have used teh wiki article as your evidence. I already refuted it. Unless you want to say that Denmark is a theocracy, since it has the state religion of Evangelical Lutheran, you need to adjust your thinking.

There is absolutely NO LAW in Israel prohibiting Christianity, Islam, etc. The Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel protects freedom to practice or not practice religious beliefs.

Israel is the national homeland for Jews, so they do give automatic citizenship status not only to Jews, but to those of Jewish descent, needing only a Jewish grandparent. This has nothing to do with religion. The person making aliyah may or may not practice Judaism. For example, many Jews who make aliyah are not religious at all, and a huge number of Russians of Jewish descent but not Jews have made aliyah to Israel, receiving automatic citizenship, and they practice Russian Orthodoxy (aka the Christian faith) not Judaism. Remember that we Jews are a tribal people -- some of us are religious, and some of us are not.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The problem with the definition is strictly this type of government is impossible today that any government would follow strictly Torah Law. but as cited Israel follows in principle Tanakh principles and rituals and basic laws of the Tanakh such as Strict Sabbath/Shabbat Observance. in a Jewish State for Jews only.

For a better definition I describe it as a Reformed Jewish Thonomy.

You are incorrect. Israel's laws do NOT require that a Jew keep the Shabbat and many Israeli Jews do not.

 

[Elihoenai]

Israel does not enforce Jewish law on shabbat. While certain aspects of it are in place, such as the halt of the buses, which are run by religious groups and not by the government. But for example, there are no laws to throw you in jail if you i.e. choose to cook dinner on the Shabbat. For example, many cafes and bars in Tel Aviv are not only open on the Shabbat, but do their best business on that day.

At the moment Israel does not Enforce Jewish Law on Shabbat, because the System is a Liberal Form of Judaism. This Liberal Form of Judaism also allows for other Religious Groups and the Non-Religious. The Authority in the Knesset and Supreme Court comes from practitioners of Judaism. Tel Aviv is for Gentiles.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

At the moment Israel does not Enforce Jewish Law on Shabbat, because the System is a Liberal Form of Judaism. This Liberal Form of Judaism also allows for other Religious Groups and the Non-Religious. The Authority in the Knesset and Supreme Court comes from practitioners of Judaism. Tel Aviv is for Gentiles.

No, its really not. In fact, Israel has an incredible bias AGAINST Reform aka progressive Judaism. It is the Orthodox who have authority in Israel over religious matters such as conversion, marriage, etc.

 

[Elihoenai]

No, its really not. In fact, Israel has an incredible bias AGAINST Reform aka progressive Judaism. It is the Orthodox who have authority in Israel over religious matters such as conversion, marriage, etc.

Yet still the Orthodox Authority allows other Religions and Non-Religious to practice freely. Allowing Other Religions and Non-Religions is a Liberal Practice.

Israel is a Jewish State having Majority Ethnic Religious Jews Favoured by Elohim/God, It's Right that the Governing Authority Favours the majority as Elohim/God commanded. Elohim/God promised that he will Favour Israel over the Nations. Elohim/God has given you Racial/Ethnic Religion.


Ethnic religion

In religious studies, an ethnic religion is a religion or belief associated with a particular ethnic group. Ethnic religions are often distinguished from universal religions, such as Christianity or Islam, in which gaining converts is a primary objective and, therefore, are not limited in ethnic, national or racial scope.

Ethnic religion - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Religion has outsized role in Israel, yet most of its Jews aren’t really observant

Religion has outsized role in Israel, yet most of its Jews aren’t really observant

Over three-quarters of country's Jews define themselves as secular or traditional; ultra-Orthodox birthrate is 6.5; some 4,000 Haredim leave their communities each year

www.timesofisrael.com

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Yet still the Orthodox Authority allows other Religions and Non-Religious to practice freely. Allowing Other Religions and Non-Religions is a Liberal Practice.

What are you talking about? It's a secular government. The Orthodox rabbinate only has authority over religious matters like conversion and marraige. It has no say in how the government runs the country. If the ultra-orthodox had their way, they would scrap Israel's current government and set up a theocracy where other religions like Christianity would be banned. But they don't get their way, because its a secular modern democracy where freedom of religion is enforced.

 

[Elihoenai]

What are you talking about? It's a secular government. The Orthodox rabbinate only has authority over religious matters like conversion and marraige. It has no say in how the government runs the country. If the ultra-orthodox had their way, they would scrap Israel's current government and set up a theocracy where other religions like Christianity would be banned. But they don't get their way, because its a secular modern democracy where freedom of religion is enforced.

The Israeli Government is Certainly Not a Secular Government. Israeli Government is Ethno-Religious Government where the Jewish People are Favoured in their own land as Elohim/God Commanded. This is Elohim/God Ordained.

I Support the Ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel because they are the Most Devoted/Committed to Elohim/God. I Am Ultra Extremist Christian Gnostic.

Israel passes controversial nation-state law

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The Israeli Government is Certainly Not a Secular Government. Israeli Government is Ethno-Religious Government where the Jewish People are Favoured in their own land as Elohim/God Commanded. This is Elohim/God Ordained.

You can repeat it 100x and it won't magically come true.

I Support the Ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel because they are the Most Devoted/Committed to Elohim/God. I Am Ultra Extremist Christian Gnostic.

Very foolish of you. If the ultra orthodox were able to set up a theocracy, you would certainly be unable to practice your Gnostic religion.

 

[Elihoenai]

You can repeat it 100x and it won't magically come true.

It is already True, The Israeli Government is an Ethno-Religious Government.

Very foolish of you. If the ultra orthodox were able to set up a theocracy, you would certainly be unable to practice your Gnostic religion.

No, you are the one being Foolish. I don't live in Israel because the Country Belongs to Ethnic Jews. You sound like a Self-Hating Jew that is writing to Please Gentiles. The Land of Israel Belongs to the Jewish People, as Elohim/God Commanded. It sounds like you don't believe in the Elohim/God Of Israel.


Self-hating Jew

The terms "self-hating Jew", "self-loathing Jew" and auto-antisemite (Hebrew: אוטואנטישמיות) are pejorative terms used to describe a Jew whose viewpoints on any specific matter are perceived as antisemitic.

Self-hating Jew - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It is already True, The Israeli Government is an Ethno-Religious Government.

ROFL head in the sand.

No, you are the one being Foolish. I don't live in Israel because the Country Belongs to Ethnic Jews. You sound like a Self-Hating Jew that is writing to Please Gentiles. The Land of Israel Belongs to the Jewish People, as Elohim/God Commanded. It sounds like you don't believe in the Elohim/God Of Israel.

If a theocracy is formed in Israel, all other religions than Judaism will be outlawed, whether Christianity, Islam, or your own religion of Gnosticism. That's a fact.

Self-hating Jew

The terms "self-hating Jew", "self-loathing Jew" and auto-antisemite (Hebrew: אוטואנטישמיות) are pejorative terms used to describe a Jew whose viewpoints on any specific matter are perceived as antisemitic.

ROFL this is a clever one. It amazes me that you devote so much time to personally attacking your interlocutors. You don't seem to understand that ad hominem attacks are a FALLACY and only serve to make you look like you have no argument.

I am a proud Jew and Zionist. Please tell me specifically what I have said that you think is deserving of the term self hating Jew. I think the reverse is true -- that the reason you are attacking me this way, not to mention the way that you insist Israel is a theocracy, is evidence of your antisemitism.

 

[shunyadragon]

This is the second time you have used teh wiki article as your evidence. I already refuted it. Unless you want to say that Denmark is a theocracy, since it has the state religion of Evangelical Lutheran, you need to adjust your thinking.

There is absolutely NO LAW in Israel prohibiting Christianity, Islam, etc. The Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel protects freedom to practice or not practice religious beliefs.

Israel is the national homeland for Jews, so they do give automatic citizenship status not only to Jews, but to those of Jewish descent, needing only a Jewish grandparent. This has nothing to do with religion. The person making aliyah may or may not practice Judaism. For example, many Jews who make aliyah are not religious at all, and a huge number of Russians of Jewish descent but not Jews have made aliyah to Israel, receiving automatic citizenship, and they practice Russian Orthodoxy (aka the Christian faith) not Judaism. Remember that we Jews are a tribal people -- some of us are religious, and some of us are not.

It has everything to do with religion. Your response is terribly misleading and biased. see:

How do I Move to Israel - Law Office in Israel

Can I immigrate to Israel as a non-Jew? How do I move to Israel? An Israeli immigration lawyer explains your options for moving to Israel. Contact us.

lawoffice.org.il

How to move to Israel if you are not Jewish?​

The process of Aliyah for a person who does not have Jewish roots or is related through marriage has not been established yet. There is nothing under Israeli immigration law or in the Law of Return that allows immigration for those who are not Jewish. The Knesset (Israel’s parliament, the country’s legislative body) has not enacted any law that allows foreign citizens, who are neither Jewish nor related to a Jewish person, to obtain permanent legal status in Israel, with the exception of those who have a relationship with a resident or citizen of Israel.

If you are not Jewish you may apply for a visa as a tourist, foreign worker, student, volunteer, clergy person with a religious organization, or for a special investor visa, if you are a citizen of the USA.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

How to move to Israel if you are not Jewish?​

You are in denial of reality. Zillions of Russian non-Jews who practice Russian Orthodoxy have successfully made aliyah to Israel.

 

[shunyadragon]

You are in denial of reality. Zillions of Russian non-Jews who practice Russian Orthodoxy have successfully made aliyah to Israel.

You are in denial of reality and references.

I provided a concise citation zillions will not fit in Israel.

The possibility is they were the product of forced conversion and have Jewish parents or grandparents, and likely became practicing Jews. See the Law of Return

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The possibility is they were the product of forced conversion and have Jewish parents or grandparents, and likely became practicing Jews. See the Law of Return

I'm not talking about Russian converts. I'm talking about Russian who for example have a Jewish grandfather. They are thus NOT a jew, yet can make aliyah and are granted automatic citizenship despite being Gentile (not to mention Christian)

 

[Elihoenai]

ROFL head in the sand.

You are the one that, apparently, has blinkers on.

American Jewry and the Rise of the Israeli Ethnoreligious State
Michael Barnett, George Washington University

American Jewry and the Rise of the Israeli Ethnoreligious State - Project on Middle East Political Science

Michael Barnett, George Washington University There are many rival explanations for why and how Israel evolved from a liberal democracy into an institutionalized ethnic and religious nationalism that discriminates against and disenfranchises the non-Jewish majority. Most of these explanations...

pomeps.org

Israel passes controversial nation-state law

If a theocracy is formed in Israel, all other religions than Judaism will be outlawed, whether Christianity, Islam, or your own religion of Gnosticism. That's a fact.

I'm hoping to see a Full Theocracy in Israel when the land will be Cleansed of all the Foreign Elements, as the Elohim/God of Israel Commanded. Only Elohim's/God's Religious Fanatics has the Will to bring in a Full Theocracy and that's why I support the Ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel.

ROFL this is a clever one. It amazes me that you devote so much time to personally attacking your interlocutors. You don't seem to understand that ad hominem attacks are a FALLACY and only serve to make you look like you have no argument.

I am a proud Jew and Zionist. Please tell me specifically what I have said that you think is deserving of the term self hating Jew. I think the reverse is true -- that the reason you are attacking me this way, not to mention the way that you insist Israel is a theocracy, is evidence of your antisemitism.

You are arguing Against a Full Theocracy in Israel when that is what the Elohim/God of Israel Commanded. You are yet to Fulfil the Torah Command to Bring In Homeland Exclusively for Ethnic Jews.

I dinned in a Liberal Jewish Restaurant a few months ago. I told the Jewish person that I spoke with my support for the Ultra-Orthodox. Further explaining that the Covenant with the Elohim/God of Israel is like a Marriage. If the Marriage is not built on Firm Foundations the partners will stray and the Marriage will Collapse. In the same way if you are not Truly Devoted/Committed to the Elohim/God of Israel you will worship other Gods.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

You are the one that, apparently, has blinkers on.

You keep posting stuff as if it makes any difference. It doesn't. I don't even bother reading it. The points I've made are factual. You can find websites that say anything. You can find websites that say the earth is flat. It doesn't make it so. You can find websites that say Jews use the blood of Christian children to make matza. It doesn't make it so. It is FACT that Israel does not use Jewish law as the law of the land. Absolutely NOTHING you say and no website you quote will change that. Move on.