Who Or What Is Israel?

[Revoltingest]

That is where CNN probably get their fake information.

You think "probably", but you don't
know if your claim is true or not?
You keep guessing at criticism...like
that Tik Tok accusation.

You're really bad at arguing.
I need some better repartee.

I don't know anything about the "Times of Israel", but if it is like the New York Times, well that says a lot.

They do have much in common.
But not what you believe.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The healing per the Torah comes by keeping the words of God. The "Christian" community thinks that it can be healed by deeming the "law" as "passing away", and "obsolete", therefore, they reap what they sow, and remain in their sins, which is manifested by sickness. One consequence is that their suffering is compounded by having to pay high-rate Jewish doctors to draw out their period of dying.

I'm going to ignore your blatantly antisemitic remark about Jewish doctors, and simply note that you did not answer my question. Here it is again:

So please explain the billions of people who are not healed, including many who suffer terribly.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Per the 1948 definition, it is indeed genocide.

The definition contained in Article II of the Convention describes genocide as a crime committed with the intent to destroy a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, in whole or in part.

In no way does Israel's actions meet that defintion.

collateral damage is intentional.

Nope. Absolutely not. If it were intentional, it wouldn't be collateral damage. Israel's intent is to hit Hamas, its leaders, its HQ, its arsenals, etc.

The problem of a high death rate of civilians has arisen solely due to Hamas' policy of using human shields. Rather than actually protect the Gazans, Hamas deliberately imbeds in hospitals, schools, residences, etc. so that Gazans will be killed when they are attacked. That way they can cry "Israel is evil!" It's a policy meant to fool us, and in your case they have succeeded.

Now as to genocide, the very charter of Hamas embraces death to all Jews (Israeli or not). See article 7. So why aren't you protesting Hamas' intent to commit genocide? You have one set of rules for Palestinians, and a different set of rules for Israelis. And THAT, sir, makes you an antisemite.

 

[2ndpillar]

I'm going to ignore your blatantly antisemitic remark about Jewish doctors, and simply note that you did not answer my question. Here it is again:

Health for Israel was contingent on them keeping the Word of God (Ex 15:26). Their general well being was also contingent on the keeping the Word of God. If they fell astray, as noted in Hosea 5, they would be put under judgment of God, yet in the end, they would return (Hosea 3 & 6). As for the "Christians", they have rejected the "Word of God" and have deemed it as "obsolete" per Hebrews 8:13, and carry the consequences of ignoring what God has told Israel. As Ephraim/Israel, is now "scattered" among the "nations" (Ez 36:19), Israel comes under the consequences of turning from the Word of God under the cloak of being Gentile. As for Jewish (of Judah) doctors, they get well paid to treat the sickness of Gentiles, and the Gentiles get to remain a little longer in their pain. If you know of any low-priced Jewish doctors, maybe you could give some references on this media.
Exodus 15:26 26 He said, “If you listen carefully to the LORD your God and do what is right in his eyes, if you pay attention to his commands and keep all his decrees, I will not bring on you any of the diseases I brought on the Egyptians, for I am the LORD, who heals you.”

 

[2ndpillar]

You think "probably", but you don't
know if your claim is true or not?
You keep guessing at criticism...like
that Tik Tok accusation.

You're really bad at arguing.
I need some better repartee.

The Progressives at one time got their talking points from the vacuum chamber of Twitter, but since it has become X, with censoring supposedly removed, I am thinking the Progressives have another fountain to drink from. The most Muslim biased large media, seems to be Tik Tok. That you are unaware of a media with 178 million U.S. users seems a little odd. The elite Universities seem to be a good source of Muslim propaganda, but you seem a little old to be an ongoing part of that propaganda dump, unless of course you teach gender studies. Don't leave, you are a hoot. I have never fully understood the underpinnings of the Marxist Progressives, and while you are not very forthright, I can always hope you let something slip. My current opinion is that Progressives are possessed by demons, as demons seem to turn people a bit crazy (Mt 8:28). As for people like Soros and Bill Gates, I simply think they have sold their souls for 30 pieces of silver. Money can be a reasoning, but I think it goes deeper, apart from people being lazy, and only believe what is skimmed off the surface of media, such as PBS, or the New York Times. Personally, I wouldn't brag about following the NY Times.

 

[Kenny]

It is (as you might say) the truth.
Your every post defends what Israel is doing,
& approves of it continuing. Under the 1948
UN definition, it is genocide.

You complain that some hostages were raped.
Yet you've no complaint that more Muslim
children are dying of starvation, bullets, &
Israel denying them medical services.
Your empathy is wearing blinders.

Apartheid still exists for Muslims who aren't
in Israeli government positions.
It's analogous to slavery in the South, ie, the
fact that some blacks also owned plantations
& slaves doesn't defeat the fact that their
enslaved blacks were still slaves.

Now you are just denying the evidence that is at hand. Positions are “elected” not “placed"

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Health for Israel was contingent on them keeping the Word of God (Ex 15:26). Their general well being was also contingent on the keeping the Word of God. If they fell astray, as noted in Hosea 5, they would be put under judgment of God, yet in the end, they would return (Hosea 3 & 6). As for the "Christians", they have rejected the "Word of God" and have deemed it as "obsolete" per Hebrews 8:13, and carry the consequences of ignoring what God has told Israel. As Ephraim/Israel, is now "scattered" among the "nations" (Ez 36:19), Israel comes under the consequences of turning from the Word of God under the cloak of being Gentile. As for Jewish (of Judah) doctors, they get well paid to treat the sickness of Gentiles, and the Gentiles get to remain a little longer in their pain. If you know of any low-priced Jewish doctors, maybe you could give some references on this media.
Exodus 15:26 26 He said, “If you listen carefully to the LORD your God and do what is right in his eyes, if you pay attention to his commands and keep all his decrees, I will not bring on you any of the diseases I brought on the Egyptians, for I am the LORD, who heals you.”

You seem to be making God's mercy dependent on obedience. It just doesn't answer the question. Why? First, because there is no statistical correlation between health and obeying God. Second, because a gazillion perfectly innocent little kids suffer and die every year. Would you like to try again? Maybe third time is the charm?

Again with your slam of Jewish doctors. Honestly, I have never had a single Jewish doctor, but health care costs are through the roof. It's sheer antisemitism on your part.

 

[Kenny]

BTW, have you noticed that I have asked several times what some here would do if it was their daughter who was raped by Hamas, and their villages and their homes that were under attack by myriads of missiles? But they don't respond to this but immediately deviate to the past matched with hypocritical hyperbole. Quite telling, eh?

Very interesting! It is as if it doesn’t fit their narrative, so we will just ignore it.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Very interesting! It is as if it doesn’t fit their narrative, so we will just ignore it.

Oh yeah. As far as Hamas is concerned, along with the entire Arab world, 10/7 just never happened.

 

[2ndpillar]

You seem to be making God's mercy dependent on obedience. It just doesn't answer the question. Why? First, because there is no statistical correlation between health and obeying God. Second, because a gazillion perfectly innocent little kids suffer and die every year. Would you like to try again? Maybe third time is the charm?

Again with your slam of Jewish doctors. Honestly, I have never had a single Jewish doctor, but health care costs are through the roof. It's sheer antisemitism on your part.

Do you not believe God (Ex 15:26)? Maybe this is why you have to go to Gentile doctors for your healing and continuing pain. Maybe you should heed the message of God and have your pain relieved. If your shepherds didn't eat the flesh of the fat sheep, and healed the sheep, then they wouldn't be liable for their coming demise (Ez 34:1-16). How did you know your doctors were not Jewish. Did you ask them? Seems kind of racist to ask. There is biblical revelation that if Judah and Ephraim/Israel had followed the LORD, they would not have been destroyed. As for Jewish bad health, being as the Jews can't even agree what God's Word means, why should they avoid disease, or destruction? As for the sins of the fathers falling on their children, that is kind of a Jewish thing, which will continue until Jeremiah 31:30-31, which apparently hasn't happened as of 5 P.M on the 13th of March 2023.

Dt 5:9
KJ21
Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them; for I, the Lord thy God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me,

Exodus 15:26 26 He said, “If you listen carefully to the LORD your God and do what is right in his eyes, if you pay attention to his commands and keep all his decrees, I will not bring on you any of the diseases I brought on the Egyptians, for I am the LORD, who heals you.”

 

[2ndpillar]

Oh yeah. As far as Hamas is concerned, along with the entire Arab world, 10/7 just never happened.

You missed their narrative. Supposedly the Jews made up the whole thing, and the Jews raped the Gazans. The fact that Hamas had imbedded news reporters film the entire thing, kind of is misrepresentation of facts.

 

[Revoltingest]

The definition contained in Article II of the Convention describes genocide as a crime committed with the intent to destroy a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, in whole or in part.

In no way does Israel's actions meet that defintion.

Oh....so it's all OK then if you find a
definition that doesn't make it genocide if
Israel kills over 30,000 Palestinians, maims
many more, destroys their homeland,
starves them, & plans to send them to
Africa, eh.
Israel is perpetrating evil. To deny it by
shopping for definitions is to justify evil.

Nope. Absolutely not. If it were intentional, it wouldn't be collateral damage.

Israel knows that bombing a building to
will kill all inside, including innocents.
This is Israel's intention.
The deaths of innocents are intentional.
It's not all collateral. Israel shoots children
and even its own people, eg, the unarmed
hostages carrying a white flag.
Israel likes killing Palestinians.
It believes that Palestinians all deserve death.
It's getting away with as much as it can
without killing the golden goose (pipeline
to USA's money, missiles, & bombs).

Israel's intent is to hit Hamas, its leaders, its HQ, its arsenals, etc.

Israel openly stated it stresses destruction
over accuracy. And killing 15,000+ children
is not war with Hamas....it's an element of
Israel's genocide.

The problem of a high death rate of civilians has arisen solely due to Hamas' policy of using human shields. Rather than actually protect the Gazans, Hamas deliberately imbeds in hospitals, schools, residences, etc. so that Gazans will be killed when they are attacked. That way they can cry "Israel is evil!" It's a policy meant to fool us, and in your case they have succeeded.

This is Israel's excuse to shooting Palestinians
just minding their own business.

Now as to genocide, the very charter of Hamas embraces death to all Jews (Israeli or not). See article 7. So why aren't you protesting Hamas' intent to commit genocide? You have one set of rules for Palestinians, and a different set of rules for Israelis.

Hamas's charter does not justify genocide.

And THAT, sir, makes you an antisemite.

Jewish bigots love that ad hominem, but
it is so over-used & becoming obviously
deluded, dishonest & desperate.

Shame, shame, shame on all who justify
genocide, or whatever you want to call
mass murder, destruction, & eviction
from their land.

 

[Revoltingest]

The Progressives at one time got their talking points from the vacuum chamber of Twitter, but since it has become X, with censoring supposedly removed, I am thinking the Progressives have another fountain to drink from. The most Muslim biased large media, seems to be Tik Tok.....

I've no interest in Twitter, Tik Tok, or X.
I don't use them.
They're irrelevant.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Do you not believe God

Yes, I am a theist, indeed I am an observant Jew. However, that is utterly irrelevant to my question and your non-answer.

 

[Revoltingest]

Now you are just denying the evidence that is at hand. Positions are “elected” not “placed"

I didn't use the quoted word, "placed".
I observe all evidence.
Including your approval of genocide
in claimed defense of Israel.
Very Christian of you.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Oh....so it's all OK then if you find a
definition that doesn't make it genocide

I am, of course, horrified by the death of ANY innocent person, especially kids. It doesn't matter to me if the person is attacked by a thug on the subway, or killed by a bomb dropped from planes. I think it should be avoided if possible. My point with Gaza, is that Israel has no choice. It is absolutely essential that Israel obliterate Hamas, and unfortunately, Hamas uses human shields.

Instead of blaming Israel for the civilian deaths, you need to blame Hamas, since they are the ones deliberately staking out their territory in high civilian areas like schools, hospitals, etc. Where is your objection to this tactic?

And finally, you have continually accused the Israelis of genocide, and I'm telling you, that is a lie, and lying really does not help you make your case. The killing of civilians as collateral damage, no matter how awful it is, is NOT GENOCIDE, so stop saying it is.

if
Israel kills over 30,000 Palestinians,

You need to remember that the Health Ministry of Gaza is controlled by Hamas and cannot be trusted. Remember when they said Israel bombed a hospital and killed 500 people? It turned out that it was an Islamic Jihad bomb, that it exploded in the parking lot and not the hospital, and the resulting deaths were somewhere between 12 an 50. This means the Health Ministry exaggerated the deaths by 10x -- or more!

So perhaps to get a more accurate account, take this claim of 30,000 and divide it by ten. Move the decimal over one place.

Israel knows that bombing a building to
will kill all inside, including innocents.

Israel has no choice but to bomb Hamas installations. The deaths of the civilians rests squarely on the shoulders of Hamas, which deliberately embeds there. You are blaming the wrong people.

This is Israel's intention.

No, absolutely not. Israel's intention, its singular focus, is to obliterate Hamas.

Hamas's charter does not justify genocide.

It does. In Article Seven, it quotes the following Hadith:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).

The Avalon Project : Hamas Covenant 1988

BTW, it was not me that added the remarks in parenthesis, but Hamas in their charter. So it is definitely Hamas that interprets "fight the Jews" to mean "killing the Jews."

So if genocide upsets you, you need to be complaining about Hamas.

 

[Revoltingest]

I am, of course, horrified by the death of ANY innocent person, especially kids.

Again, this is passive voice to describe Palestinian
deaths. It's something that just happens. Not
Israel's fault that it's the one doing far & away
the most killing.

It doesn't matter to me if the person is attacked by a thug on the subway, or killed by a bomb dropped from planes. I think it should be avoided if possible. My point with Gaza, is that Israel has no choice. It is absolutely essential that Israel obliterate Hamas, and unfortunately, Hamas uses human shields.

The other option for Israel would've been to end
apartheid years ago...end imprisonment without
a trial...end Jewish settler violence & land theft...
end the financial oppression of Gaza...end torture,
etc.
Hamas & other groups exist only in opposition to
Israel's vicious brutality & injustice. That must end.

Instead of blaming Israel for the civilian deaths...

Israel is the one killing them.
Just like today....Israel solders killed a 12 year
old boy. Government praised the soldier as
a hero for killing a "terrorist".

...you need to blame Hamas, since they are the ones deliberately staking out their territory in high civilian areas like schools, hospitals, etc. Where is your objection to this tactic?

I blame Hamas for what Hamas did & does.
I blame Israel for imposing conditions that
creates violent groups like Hamas, & for
now committing genocide in a rampage
of vengeance.

You need to remember that the Health Ministry of Gaza is controlled by Hamas and cannot be trusted.

You criticize the source, but you offer no alternative,
nor evidence that these figures are wrong.
Israel is no more trustworthy. It offers propaganda
& excuses to justify genocide, starvation, eviction,
& land theft.

Remember when they said Israel bombed a hospital and killed 500 people? It turned out that it was an Islamic Jihad bomb, that it exploded in the parking lot and not the hospital, and the resulting deaths were somewhere between 12 an 50. This means the Health Ministry exaggerated the deaths by 10x -- or more!

This does not change the 30,000 deaths, &
the fact that Israel is committing genocide.

So perhaps to get a more accurate account, take this claim of 30,000 and divide it by ten. Move the decimal over one place.

You pluck a number out of
thin air, & claim it's cromulent?

Israel has no choice but to bomb Hamas installations.

People say they have no choice in
order to justify a choice they don't
want to take responsibility for.
As with @dybmh, you're applying
the Homer Simpson pie fallacy.

The deaths of the civilians rests squarely on the shoulders of Hamas, which deliberately embeds there. You are blaming the wrong people.

No, absolutely not. Israel's intention, its singular focus, is to obliterate Hamas.

It does. In Article Seven, it quotes the following Hadith:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).

The Avalon Project : Hamas Covenant 1988

BTW, it was not me that added the remarks in parenthesis, but Hamas in their charter. So it is definitely Hamas that interprets "fight the Jews" to mean "killing the Jews."

You speak of Hamas's charter as though it's immutable.
If Israel ever tried giving Palestinians justice, they might
find Hamas changing its tune.
But I also note that Israel opposes the existence of
Palestine. And it's popular in Israel to sing a song
of wiping them out.
So this hatred is mutual. But Israel & its apologists
continue to take no responsibility for what they do.

So if genocide upsets you, you need to be complaining about Hamas.

Genocide should upset you, & the Jews & Christians
& enabling & committing it. Using religion to justify
mass murder is heinous.

 

[Kenny]

I didn't use the quoted word, "placed".
I observe all evidence.
Including your approval of genocide
in claimed defense of Israel.
Very Christian of you.

As i said… denying the evidence by saying (in essence) that they should be placed when they are elected isn’t apartheid. The do hold governmental positions.

BUT

that doesn’t support your narrative.

Please fabricate a narrative to ignore the truth and let me know
OH WIAT! I think you just did that!

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Again, this is passive voice to describe Palestinian
deaths. It's something that just happens. Not
Israel's fault that it's the one doing far & away
the most killing.

Exactly. The number of civilian deaths is entirely due to Hamas embedding with civilians.

The other option for Israel would've been to end
apartheid years ago...end imprisonment without
a trial...end Jewish settler violence & land theft...
end the financial oppression of Gaza...end torture,
etc.

Hey, I have many personal complaints about Israel, beginning with the crimes of the Settlers. Imprisonment without trial is another problem. But none of that means it is pro-genocide, which is your claim. This sub-thread is specifically about whether Israel is committing genocide, and clearly it is not. Hamas, on the other hand, very definitely does promote genocide against Jews. Not even just Israelis, but JEWS.

Hamas & other groups exist only in opposition to
Israel's vicious brutality & injustice. That must end.

Nonsense. Arabs have been fighting against the existence of the state of Israel since the day its formation was announced by the UN. Palestinians are not interested in a two state solution -- the UN wanted to make a separate state for them back in 1948, and they were not interested. Their goal has always and only been the destruction of Israel.

Government praised the soldier as
a hero for killing a "terrorist".

He may have been. Do you think there are no older children among the terrorists? Sometimes kids are the most fervent of all about a given ideology.

I blame Hamas for what Hamas did & does.

Including its intended genocide against Jews? Including its embedding among civilians?

I blame Israel for imposing conditions that
creates violent groups like Hamas,

Oh please. There are people who live in far worse conditions than the Gazans, and they don't become genocidal. Do you see Rohingyans plotting to kill all the buddhists in Myanmar?

You criticize the source, but you offer no alternative,
nor evidence that these figures are wrong.

My figures are based on known behavior from the past. They did in fact exaggerate the deaths at that hospitals between 10-42 times. I'm being very generous by using the 10 times rather than the 42 times. 10 times means that around 3000 have been killed in Gaza (not all of them civilians). Had I used 42 times, the deaths would number about 714.

You speak of Hamas's charter as though it's immutable.

Oh, I would be delighted if they would amend their charter, or draw up a new one, walking back on their objectives to destroy Israel and kill all the Jews. But I'm not holding my breath. I think they are deluded by racist hate.

Do SOME Israelis hate Palestinians and wish for their genocide? Undoubtedly. But this is just not most Israelis, nor is it Israeli policy. You don't have any Israeli charter calling for the killing of Palestinians.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Matthew 23:38 states that "your house is being left to you desolate", and that is because of Judah's and Ephraim's sin (Joel 5). Judah and Ephraim/Israel will be "revived" (Joel 3 & Hosea 6) after 2 days/2000 years. As for Mt 21:43, read Matthew 21:44 in context with Daniel 2:45, whereas those being "crushed" are the nations/Gentiles, at the end of the age (Jeremiah 30:11). As for the writings of Peter, the "worthless shepherd" of Zechariah 11:17, he is quoting from Isaiah, who is talking to Israel, with respect being disobedient to the "word", which is the "Word" of God, in which the nations/Gentiles have nailed to a cross, making it "obsolete" and "passing away". There is only one "rock", the "Word of God" (Revelation 19:13), and it is not Peter (petros), the apparent rock of your high school. The "Word of God" is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. As for Peter, he is dead (Zech 11:8), and according to the Roman church, buried.

Jesus knew he would be executed (Matt. 23:37) thus Jesus was speaking to the corrupted Jewish religious leaders in verse 38.
God was No longer going to accept the form of worship that was practiced under the Mosaic Law.- Romans 10:4
After all, the Constitution of the Mosaic Law was only for one nation, only the nation of ancient Israel.
That is why Jesus forecasted the temple's coming destruction at Matthew 24:1-2
Jesus' words were fulfilled when the Roman armies destroyed Jerusalem in the year 70.
Remember: Jesus did Not foretell the material building or rebuilding of another temple (house of worship)
Rather a future city (Hebrews 13:14) aka ' heavenly Jerusalem' - Galatians 4:26.
Heavenly Jerusalem the city-like Kingdom of God ( thy kingdom come..... )
So, since Pentecost a Higher Jerusalem is what is involved. The Roman attack in the year 70 helped show that.
Yes, there is only one Rock (Rev.19:11-16) Jesus is the Cornerstone ( singular ) Jesus the Head of the corner .
Please see Matthew 21:42; Mark 12:10; Luke 20:17; Isaiah 28:16; Ephesians 2:20 and 1st Peter 2:6
My public high school had No rock but we did have a courtyard with a small fountain surounded by some stones.