Who Or What Is Israel?

[URAVIP2ME]

If you look at scripture the Christians & Jews
have, they too are hideously violent.
So you can't reason from that to justify Jews
massacring Muslims.

Rather, I find it is so-called Christians because they ignored Jesus' words found at Matthew 26:52-53; John 18:11.
Genuine followers of Christ use and rely on spiritual weapons ( 2nd Corinthians 10:4; Ephesians 6:11-17 )
Remember: Jesus foretold MANY who come in his name will prove false - Matthew 7:21-23

 

[Revoltingest]

Please fabricate a narrative to ignore the truth and let me know
OH WIAT! I think you just did that!

Those who fabricate shouldn't accuse others.
You support genocide.
You just won't admit to the term.

 

[Revoltingest]

Exactly. The number of civilian deaths is entirely due to Hamas embedding with civilians.

Hey, I have many personal complaints about Israel, beginning with the crimes of the Settlers. Imprisonment without trial is another problem. But none of that means it is pro-genocide, which is your claim. This sub-thread is specifically about whether Israel is committing genocide, and clearly it is not. Hamas, on the other hand, very definitely does promote genocide against Jews. Not even just Israelis, but JEWS.

Nonsense. Arabs have been fighting against the existence of the state of Israel since the day its formation was announced by the UN. Palestinians are not interested in a two state solution -- the UN wanted to make a separate state for them back in 1948, and they were not interested. Their goal has always and only been the destruction of Israel.

He may have been. Do you think there are no older children among the terrorists? Sometimes kids are the most fervent of all about a given ideology.

Including its intended genocide against Jews? Including its embedding among civilians?

Oh please. There are people who live in far worse conditions than the Gazans, and they don't become genocidal. Do you see Rohingyans plotting to kill all the buddhists in Myanmar?

My figures are based on known behavior from the past. They did in fact exaggerate the deaths at that hospitals between 10-42 times. I'm being very generous by using the 10 times rather than the 42 times. 10 times means that around 3000 have been killed in Gaza (not all of them civilians). Had I used 42 times, the deaths would number about 714.

Oh, I would be delighted if they would amend their charter, or draw up a new one, walking back on their objectives to destroy Israel and kill all the Jews. But I'm not holding my breath. I think they are deluded by racist hate.

Do SOME Israelis hate Palestinians and wish for their genocide? Undoubtedly. But this is just not most Israelis, nor is it Israeli policy. You don't have any Israeli charter calling for the killing of Palestinians.

Try as you will to deflect from Israel's committing
genocide under the guise of exterminating Hamas
It is not the fault of the innocent Palestinians that
your people want gone.

 

[Revoltingest]

Rather, I find it is so-called Christians because they ignored Jesus' words found at Matthew 26:52-53; John 18:11.
Genuine followers of Christ use and rely on spiritual weapons ( 2nd Corinthians 10:4; Ephesians 6:11-17 )
Remember: Jesus foretold MANY who come in his name will prove false - Matthew 7:21-23

Whatever they want to do,
they can fish for something
to justify it in scripture.
Currently, it's genocide.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

.........................................................................Matthew 17:4
4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
Does Matthew 11:11 mean that John the Baptist is Greater than Moses? I will let you and other readers meditate on this. A Tabernacle Must be made for both John the Baptist and Moses...............................

First of all, we need to keep in mind the Transfiguration was a VISION ( Matthew 17:9 ) and Not an actual happening.
ALL who died before Jesus died ( John the Baptist, Moses, David (Acts 2:34) and those names listed at Hebrews chapter 11 ) are all still dead - Hebrews 11:13,39; John 3:13
Dead asleep until Resurrection Day meaning Jesus' coming Millennium-Long Day governing over Earth.
This is why the 'future tense' is used at Acts 24:15 that there ' is going to be ' a resurrection.......

 

[nick.f]

Matthew 21
40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?”
41 “He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they replied, “and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time.”
42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

“‘The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
the Lord has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’?
43 “Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 44 Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed.”

The Jews said it themselves: "he will rent the vineyard to other tenants", thus the spiritual Israel. "...the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a(other) people..." After all the Messiah was to come to save only the Jews and not all humans? They were to prepare the road for the Messiah to come and after that all people who believe in Him are "Israel".

 

[Kenny]

Those who fabricate shouldn't accuse others.

Hmmmm…. me thinks thou dost protest too much.

 

[2ndpillar]

Jesus knew he would be executed (Matt. 23:37) thus Jesus was speaking to the corrupted Jewish religious leaders in verse 38.
God was No longer going to accept the form of worship that was practiced under the Mosaic Law.- Romans 10:4
After all, the Constitution of the Mosaic Law was only for one nation, only the nation of ancient Israel.
That is why Jesus forecasted the temple's coming destruction at Matthew 24:1-2
Jesus' words were fulfilled when the Roman armies destroyed Jerusalem in the year 70.
Remember: Jesus did Not foretell the material building or rebuilding of another temple (house of worship)
Rather a future city (Hebrews 13:14) aka ' heavenly Jerusalem' - Galatians 4:26.
Heavenly Jerusalem the city-like Kingdom of God ( thy kingdom come..... )
So, since Pentecost a Higher Jerusalem is what is involved. The Roman attack in the year 70 helped show that.
Yes, there is only one Rock (Rev.19:11-16) Jesus is the Cornerstone ( singular ) Jesus the Head of the corner .
Please see Matthew 21:42; Mark 12:10; Luke 20:17; Isaiah 28:16; Ephesians 2:20 and 1st Peter 2:6
My public high school had No rock but we did have a courtyard with a small fountain surounded by some stones.

The Jewish (Judah) religious leaders and Jerusalem are being "restored" (Joel 3:1), and the nations/Gentiles, are about to be visited with judgment (Joel 3:2). Romans and Hebrews was supposedly written by the "enemy" of the kingdom of heaven (Mt 13), which was done by the false prophet Paul, or supposed to be, whose "message", the "tare seed", the "message" of lawlessness, was planted next to the good seed in the same "field"/book, would be preserved until the "end of the age" (Mt 13:30), at which time the "tares" would be "gathered" "first" and thrown into the "fire"/tribulation. The Commandments were for "every person" (Ecclesiastes 12:13). "Thy kingdom come" refers to when Judah and Ephraim/Israel would be reunited on the and given to Jacob, with king David would be their king, whereas they would all "keep my statutes" (Ez 36 & 37:22-25). As for Peter, he was the "worthless shepherd" of Zech 11:17, who would try to make a place for himself in the "rock" (Isaiah 22:15-25). As for "worship", the Levites would be sanctified (Malachi 3:3-4), and even the surviving nations/Gentiles, will keep the high holy day of the feast of Booths (Zech 14:16 & 19) and "sacrifice" will be made in "holy" pots (Zech 14:21). Take away your tare seed, and you are left with nothing.

 

[dybmh]

I blame Israel for imposing conditions that
creates violent groups like Hamas

Those conditions are necessary because Palestinians smuggle weapons into israel and attack innocent Israelis, on average, 5 times each day. In Sept 2023, the average was 10 terrorist attacks per day.

The "oppression" is a direct consequence of violent groups and violent actions which predate the "oppression".

 

[2ndpillar]

Yes, I am a theist, indeed I am an observant Jew. However, that is utterly irrelevant to my question and your non-answer.

The answer is obvious with respect to God's Word, in that those who are "observant" will not receive the plagues of Egypt. Apparently, as you have to visit your Gentile doctor, you have fallen short, as with the Gentiles who visit the same doctor. You sound like a Liberal California Jew, who would not be "observant" in the eyes of a conservative Jew. The proof is in the pudding. Do you have to visit a doctor or not? Your "subjective" view of your Jewishness, does not meet the standard of not having the plagues of Egypt/nations/Gentiles.
As for being a "theist", so are the Muslims, and the Christians. They all visit the same Gentile physician, because they don't follow the Word of God as given to Moses. You have answered your own question.

 

[2ndpillar]

I've no interest in Twitter, Tik Tok, or X.
I don't use them.
They're irrelevant.

It is apparent that the only information you get is from rags such as the NY Times. Good luck with that. The relevance was that the NY Times got their talking points from "Twitter".

 

[2ndpillar]

The Jews said it themselves: "he will rent the vineyard to other tenants", thus the spiritual Israel. "...the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a(other) people..." After all the Messiah was to come to save only the Jews and not all humans? They were to prepare the road for the Messiah to come and after that all people who believe in Him are "Israel".

The rent was the equivalent price of 30 shekels of silver, the price paid for the "adulteress" (Gentiles) of Hosea 3, who would only stay for a short time, whereas, then Israel would return to the LORD and "David their king" (Hosea 3). Your false gospel of Paul, the "tare seed", the "message" of the "devil" (Mt 13) is coming to an end, as we are now entering the "end of the age" (Mt 13:30).

Matthew 13: 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

 

[nick.f]

Why does God allow Pain and Suffering? - Coptic Orthodox Answers

Why does God allow Pain and Suffering? In the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, One God, Amen. Today my beloved we discuss a question

copticorthodoxanswers.org

Why does God allow Pain and Suffering?​

St John Chrysostom says “where man leads, creation will follow…” In this very sense all of creation was now subject to corruption and chaos because of that is where man lead it. And for this very reason, because of the fall of mankind and the fall of all creation, we now find ourselves in a state where we suffer pain and evil both morally from the ungodly choices of others, as well as from the chaos that was introduced into the natural world.

That being said, we must now turn our attention to what God does in light of all this evil, this pain, this suffering. Some may simply ask, why doesn’t God turn back time and stop the fall, or better yet why not simply prevent people from making horrible choices that will cause suffering on others… To ask this question is to demonstrate that we still do not understand God’s great gift of free will. If God interferes with our Free Will, then we are not free at all. And if He were to remove our freedom, then He does not love us and He becomes something that is contrary to His nature. All of these things are impossible for God for He will not ever go against all that He is. So what option remains? If He cannot forcibly remove evil from our hearts and in the process prevent pain and suffering, then what He does is to transform pain and suffering! He takes something that was the cause of corruption and evil, and He transfigures it into a path that can lead to holiness, salvation, and glory. And He does this by allowing Himself to be intimately acquainted with the pain and suffering of His creation.

Now some may argue that it is impossible for God to suffer and to experience evil and pain. And this is where the Christian faith is unlike any other. Our God came down, humbled Himself fully and took on our form in order to do for us what we proved incapable of doing ourselves. Therefore, boldly does the Christian tell everyone that my God, who was incarnate for me and for my salvation, suffered in the flesh, experienced pain and sorrow in the flesh, died in the flesh, and He also rose from the dead and ascended into the heavens in all glory IN THE FLESH! In doing so, He transformed the path of punishment, into a path of salvation. For this reason, St Paul explains that truly, “…if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together. For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.” (Romans 8:17-18)

Why the Transfiguration is So Important for Orthodoxy

St. Innocent of Alaska Orthodox Monastery of the Moscow Patriarchal Parishes located in Redford, MI

stinnocentmonastery.org

The Transfiguration of Christ:
This is the one and only time during His earthly life that Jesus’ Divinity was fully revealed and made manifest. His entire Body was bathed in Divine Glory affirming that He is both fully God and fully Man — the ‘God-Man.’ This Theophany on Mount Tabor also foreshadowed the Glory of Christ’s Resurrection and Ascension that were to follow shortly, and thus the fulfillment of the very purpose of the Incarnation — to restore fallen humanity and all creation to their original goodness and glory as originally created by the Holy Trinity through the Logos/Word. And this is the vision of Christ’s Transfiguration, which is precisely the invisible spiritual reality made visible in authentic Orthodox icons, and apprehended by us while yet on earth.

 

[metis]

Notice, as I mentioned in my post #1059, that when asked what they would so if they were attacked like Israel was on 10-7 and had missiles fired at their residences, some here simply won't answer it and deflect back to further demonize Israel. That is "intellectual dishonesty" that shows the shallowness in their "thinking". Take a look at those that have refused to answer, and maybe ask them why they have refused to answer that basic question after I have repeatedly posted it?

So, why such intellectual dishonesty? When people are under attack whereas their lives are threatened, common sense has it that the "fight or flight reflex" kicks in, thus they would fight back in most cases and do what it takes to stop the opposing force. Either some here don't really much understand human nature or that their hatred for Israel dominates their "thinking".

OTOH, are there reasons to criticize Israel? IMO, clearly yes. As I previously have posted, I detest Netanyahu and his Likud coalition, and I do believe he and they has gone too far with this, thus at least a limited cease fire in badly needed.

However, let me mention again, that if Hamas surrendered and sought asylum in another Arab country, this conflict would STOP. It's so "telling" that those who hate Israel are not even willing to mention this very simple fact.

 

[2ndpillar]

However, let me mention again, that if Hamas surrendered and sought asylum in another Arab country, this conflict would STOP. It's so "telling" that those who hate Israel are not even willing to mention this very simple fact.

There is no Arab country that would take Hamas, or even the Gazans. Egypt is reinforcing their fence between Egypt and Gaza. The "Brotherhood" is highly tied to Hamas, and no Muslim country wants them. As for your bias against the Israeli leadership, well, nothing you support seems to have any righteous foundation. Your blue haired Progressive comrades are fully into supporting Hamas. People don't "hate" Israel, they want the country of Israel as their own. It is like South Africa, people want the control, yet their corrupt control soon turns into a failed country. The people hate Jews, because the Jews are portrayed as swine by way of the media, and the intelligentsia, or at least made second rate citizens, who like as with the elite Universities, are provided no civil protection. The Gaza children have been raised to hate the Jews, and this done in UN supported schools. Houston, we have a problem.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Matthew 21
40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?”
41 “He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they replied, “and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time.”
42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

“‘The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
the Lord has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’?
43 “Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 44 Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed.”

The Jews said it themselves: "he will rent the vineyard to other tenants", thus the spiritual Israel. "...the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a(other) people..." After all the Messiah was to come to save only the Jews and not all humans? They were to prepare the road for the Messiah to come and after that all people who believe in Him are "Israel".

I'm not sure what you think you are replying to. You included no quote to give your remarks context. Your post seems to be just random preaching.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Notice, as I mentioned in my post #1059, that when asked what they would so if they were attacked like Israel was on 10-7 and had missiles fired at their residences, some here simply won't answer it and deflect back to further demonize Israel. That is "intellectual dishonesty" that shows the shallowness in their "thinking". Take a look at those that have refused to answer, and maybe ask them why they have refused to answer that basic question after I have repeatedly posted it?

So, why such intellectual dishonesty? When people are under attack whereas their lives are threatened, common sense has it that the "fight or flight reflex" kicks in, thus they would fight back in most cases and do what it takes to stop the opposing force. Either some here don't really much understand human nature or that their hatred for Israel dominates their "thinking".

OTOH, are there reasons to criticize Israel? IMO, clearly yes. As I previously have posted, I detest Netanyahu and his Likud coalition, and I do believe he and they has gone too far with this, thus at least a limited cease fire in badly needed.

However, let me mention again, that if Hamas surrendered and sought asylum in another Arab country, this conflict would STOP. It's so "telling" that those who hate Israel are not even willing to mention this very simple fact.

Great post!

It should be noted that Israel did try to negotiate a temporary cease fire for the hostages, but Hamas would not go for it. Hamas has delusional requirements for the hostages -- a PERMANENT ceasefire, complete withdrawal of Israel from Gaza, and assistance to help rebuild. IOW they will only release the hostages if Israel completely surrenders. Not gonna happen.

 

[metis]

Great post!

It should be noted that Israel did try to negotiate a temporary cease fire for the hostages, but Hamas would not go for it. Hamas has delusional requirements for the hostages -- a PERMANENT ceasefire, complete withdrawal of Israel from Gaza, and assistance to help rebuild. IOW they will only release the hostages if Israel completely surrenders. Not gonna happen.

I 100% agree with you.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The answer is obvious with respect to God's Word, in that those who are "observant" will not receive the plagues of Egypt.

Sorry, this just doesn't happen. Remember there were all sorts of extremely orthodox Jews that died in Auschwitz. God does NOT protect those who obey.

Apparently, as you have to visit your Gentile doctor, you have fallen short, as with the Gentiles who visit the same doctor.

There is absolutely no prohibition in Jewish law against seeing a Gentile doctor. In fact, if my life is in danger, I am required to do what it takes to preserve my life, even if it violates the commandments.

You sound like a Liberal California Jew, who would not be "observant" in the eyes of a conservative Jew.

Actually I am part of the Conservative Movement, not Reform. I used to be Orthodox, but left it when my mental health declined due to its restrictions on women, especially the stifling of women's singing voices. Honestly, I have no regrets leaving behind requirements like putting your right shoe on first.

A word of advice. Stopping telling Jews how to be Jews. You don't know what the heck you are talking about.

 

[2ndpillar]

Sorry, this just doesn't happen. Remember there were all sorts of extremely orthodox Jews that died in Auschwitz. God does NOT protect those who obey.

An orthodox Jew doesn't get carte blanche. If they don't turn from "wickedness", well according to Ezekiel 18:24, they will die. As for the Levites, they will have to go through a refining fire (Malachi 3:3).
Ezekiel 18:24 But when a righteous person turns from his righteousness and acts unjustly, committing the same detestable acts that the wicked do, will he live? None of the righteous acts he did will be remembered. He will die because of the treachery he has engaged in and the sin he has committed