Who Or What Is Israel?

[Jayhawker Soule]

Most scholars would say that if you go back far enough into the ancient past, the original version of YHWH was a local god, one of many gods, but a god that was preferred. "There are many gods, but YHWH is OUR god." IOW part of a henotheistic culture.

However, that was abandoned long, long ago. Certainly since the Babylonian captivity, the worship of YHWH has been strictly monotheistic, meaning that YHWH is the one and only God.

I generally agree, but this timeline prompts the following three questions concerning pre-6th century BCE Israelite societies:

1. Should one consider them to be henotheistic or monolatrous?
2. Can one consider them to be 'Jewish' in the religious sense?
3. Is the concept of religious conversion meaningful in such societies?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I generally agree, but this timeline prompts the following three questions concerning pre-6th century BCE Israelite societies:

1. Should one consider them to be henotheistic or monolatrous?

I realize that there is a subtle distinction between these two labels, but to me, it is so subtle that its not really worth arguing about.

1. Can one consider them to be 'Jewish' in the religious sense?

A really excellent question, but one that is really beyond me to answer.

1. Is the concept of religious conversion meaningful in such societies?

Again, beyond me. My impression is that back then, there was no concept of religion that was separate from the other elements of life. If one was an Israelite, it was the totality of being part of the Israelite people, and religious assumptions were simply a part of the pie. I suspect that most of the concepts we have today, such as conversion, would seem very odd to people back then. But these are just my ideas as a total amateur. It's more something that should be asked of someone who has really made study of these things their area of expertise.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

My impression is that back then, there was no concept of religion that was separate from the other elements of life. If one was an Israelite, it was the totality of being part of the Israelite people, and religious assumptions were simply a part of the pie.

I suspect that, in a very real sense, there was no concept of religion per se.

As for being an Israelite, that is a more problematic than it might appear on the surface. As but one example, let me suggest a couple of articles:

• Resettlement policy of the Neo-Assyrian Empire
• Assyrian Deportation and Resettlement: The Story of Samaria

The last three decades of the 8th century BCE was a disaster for the Northern Kingdom. It was not simply a defeat, nor was it simply an exile. It was a mass deportation with a vacuum filled by other conquered peoples. The so-called Northern Kingdom was transformed into an Assyrian fashioned erev rav.

Masses of dispossessed elite fled south. Assyria marched south. In another three decades Assyria would invade Egypt. Returning to Wikipedia ...

... in 701 BCE, Hezekiah, the king of Judah, Lule, the king of Sidon, Sidka, the king of Ashkelon, and the king of Ekron formed an alliance with Egypt against Assyria. The Neo-Assyrian emperor Sennacherib (r. 705–681) attacked the rebels, conquering Ashkelon, Sidon and Ekron and defeating the Egyptians and driving them from the region. He marched toward Jerusalem, destroying 46 towns and villages (including the heavily defended city of Lachish) in his path. [source]​

It was a period of intense vassalage characterized by cultural and political churning. Assyria would eventually overextend itself. Its empire would give way to Babylonian ascendency, Judah would meet the same fate as its northern neighbor, and a reinvisioned "Israel" would have to wait for the relative stability of the Persian period.

So, who (and when) was this Israelite?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Some assumptions seem little more than convenient fabrications. Capitalizing a couple of words does little to validate the argument.

I wasn't using caps to claim the argument was legitimate. I appropriately used it to emphasize the word most important to understanding my comment. SHE became a Jew, She became a JEW, and She BECAME a Jew all mean subtly different things. When we speak out loud, it is second nature to show emphasis by upping the volume and changing the pitch in a word. It's a little tougher to do that in print, but one way is to use caps.

Just when did this happen, and with what Torah?

I had to take a day to think over just how to respond to this. I most commonly use the word "convert" in these kind of forums because it is the best approximation, one that others can understand. But I think the reality is something a little different. I think that Judaism preserves an older way of seeing the world, where religion is not something that is picked apart from the rest of one's culture.

My guess is that what typically happened back then is that when someone intermarried, one or the other person simply assimilated the culture of their spouse. The ENTIRE culture. The religious assumptions and practices were simply part of that. This would be especially true if the community in which they lived were a single culture.

It's why the word "conversion" is problematic when translating Geirut. For the sake of lurkers, someone who undergoes "conversion to Judaism" isn't just adopting a new religion. They are assimilating into a new People. They don't just study Torah. Being a Jew isn't just the heavy lifting stuff. It's also the enjoyable little things. Converts learn who Hershel is, how to bake challah, adopt yiddish phrases, shmooze at the Jewish community center, put Israeli flags on their walls.

So when I try to explain to someone that Zeporah became a Jew, it is more an appeal to my understanding that she left the people of her birth, and attached herself to her husband's people. With that came all of those kinds of things, both light and heavy.

And, as always, I'm fine if you disagree. I'm very much aware that I'm not really qualified to insist "These are the facts." I'm simply sharing my view.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

So when I try to explain to someone that Zeporah became a Jew, it is more an appeal to my understanding that she left the people of her birth, and attached herself to her husband's people. With that came all of those kinds of things, both light and heavy.

First, thanks for your very good post.

Just a side note: the actions of Zipporah in Exodus 2:21 is not the same as those of Ruth the Moabite. Just how long did Moses attach himself to his wife's people, when did she attach herself to her husband's people, and how old were Eliezer and Gershom at that time?

It's complicated.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

First, thanks for your very good post.

Just a side note: the actions of Zipporah in Exodus 2:21 is not the same as those of Ruth the Moabite. Just how long did Moses attach himself to his wife's people, when did she attach herself to her husband's people, and how old were Eliezer and Gershom at that time?

It's complicated.

I agree.