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Who Or What Is Israel?

Elihoenai

Well-Known Member
Is there some reason that you still don't comprehend how worthless it is to quote the New Testament to a Jew?

Think: if a Muslim quoted the Quran to you, would that persuade you? If a LDS quoted the Book of Mormon to you, would you be persuaded? Because quoting the NT to me is just as much spinning your wheels, as these two examples.

BTW, even your worthless quote doesn't say what you think it says. You need to read it again. It never once mentions being sinless.
I Am fully aware that the New Testament Holy Scriptures is worthless in the eyes of those Claiming to be Jews. My messages are also for Christians, Muslims, members of Other Religions and Atheists to read.
 
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Elihoenai

Well-Known Member
The Interpretation of the Hebrew Scriptures of those Claiming to be Jews is Defined in the movie The Handmaid's Tale. The same Interpretation Dominates Christianity and Islam.



The Handmaid's Tale

The Handmaid's Tale is a futuristic dystopian novel[6] by Canadian author Margaret Atwood published in 1985.[7] It is set in a near-future New England in a patriarchal, totalitarian theonomic state known as the Republic of Gilead, which has overthrown the United States government.[8] Offred is the central character and narrator and one of the "Handmaids": women who are forcibly assigned to produce children for the "Commanders", who are the ruling class in Gilead.



The Handmaid's Tale (1990) - Official Trailer



In the movie The Handmaid's Tale the Ruling Class, Governing with Old Testament Totalitarian Theocracy, asserts that they are Serving Elohim/God. Do you believe the Ruling Class is Serving Elohim/God or Serving Satan/Devil? Are the Ruling Class calling Satan/Devil Elohim/God?
 
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paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Who Or What Is Israel?

It is a title name given by G-d to persons who courageously bore hardship/tribulations for His cause; like Jacob was titled by G-d Israel and or like Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908/ the Second Coming and Imam Mahdi was given a title name of JARI ULLAH* جَرِیُ اللّٰہِ by G-d, right, please?
So, religion and its prophecies are spiritual, neither racial nor worldly, right?
Regards
___________________
*"جری اللہ فی حلل الانبیاء"
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Isaiah 55:11

11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

James 1:17

17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.



That's Not Goodness. You have not learnt what Real Goodness Is. Given that either party in the Marriage Contract/Covenant Commits Adultery they were Insincere entering into the Marriage Covenant. The Covenant is Not Realised Under those Circumstances.
You win for place for the non-sequitur award.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Who Or What Is Israel?

It is a title name given by G-d to persons who courageously bore hardship/tribulations for His cause; like Jacob was titled by G-d Israel and or like Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908/ the Second Coming and Imam Mahdi was given a title name of JARI ULLAH* جَرِیُ اللّٰہِ by G-d, right, please?
So, religion and its prophecies are spiritual, neither racial nor worldly, right?
Regards
___________________
*"جری اللہ فی حلل الانبیاء"
No, it's not. Your remark is comparable to saying the Lakota are everyone who lives in North America.
 

Elijah2

Member
Thank you so much for this! I went and researched the Shapira scrolls. I see that they are very controversial; the most common opinion is that they are forgeries, but there are those experts such as Dershowitz who think they are genuine. I was not able to confirm their age. And most disapointing was that I could not find the actual text of its 10 commandments. However, MOST interesting.

If it is in fact a Proto-Deuteronomy, I would not be surprised, as it would fit with my view that the Torah was originally many documents that changed over time until they were spliced together later in history to their present form.
 

Elihoenai

Well-Known Member
Who Or What Is Israel?

It is a title name given by G-d to persons who courageously bore hardship/tribulations for His cause; like Jacob was titled by G-d Israel and or like Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908/ the Second Coming and Imam Mahdi was given a title name of JARI ULLAH* جَرِیُ اللّٰہِ by G-d, right, please?
So, religion and its prophecies are spiritual, neither racial nor worldly, right?
Regards
___________________
*"جری اللہ فی حلل الانبیاء"
Christian Gnostics Pledge Total Allegiance to Elohim/God Only. Christian Gnostics Commands its members to Pledge Total Allegiance to Elohim/God Only.

Have you pledged Allegiance to a leader in Islam like Mirza Ghulam Ahmad commanded his followers to pledge allegiance to him? What hardships/tribulations did Mirza Ghulam Ahmad endure For Elohim/God to be Titled Israel?

What did Imam Mahdi do to earn the Title Israel?
 
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River Sea

Well-Known Member
Isaiah 1:9

9 Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.



Being Christian Gnostic I speak of Spiritual Israel. You are talking about Fleshly Israel. Concerning Fleshly Israel, who do you consider to be the Very Small Jewish Remnant Totally Devoted to the Elohim/God of Israel?

It appears that the Very Small Remnant Must be numbered among the Karaites. Others might say among practitioners of the Kabbalah.



Karaite Judaism

Karaite Judaism (Hebrew: יהדות קראית, romanized: Yahadut Qara'it)[a] is a Jewish religious movement characterized by the recognition of the written Tanakh alone as its supreme authority in halakha (Jewish religious law) and theology.[11] Karaites believe that all of the divine commandments which were handed down to Moses by God were recorded in the written Torah without any additional Oral Law or explanation. Unlike mainstream Rabbinic Judaism, which regards the Oral Torah, codified in the Talmud and subsequent works, as authoritative interpretations of the Torah, Karaite Jews do not treat the written collections of the oral tradition in the Midrash or the Talmud as binding.




Kabbalah

Kabbalah or Qabalah (/kəˈbɑːlə, ˈkæbələ/ kə-BAH-lə, KAB-ə-lə; Hebrew: קַבָּלָה‎, romanized: Qabbālā, lit. 'reception, tradition')[1][a] is an esoteric method, discipline and school of thought in Jewish mysticism.[2] A traditional Kabbalist is called a Mekubbal (מְקוּבָּל‎, Məqūbbāl, 'receiver').[2] The definition of Kabbalah varies according to the tradition and aims of those following it,[3] from its origin in medieval Judaism to its later adaptations in Western esotericism (Christian Kabbalah and Hermetic Qabalah). Jewish Kabbalah is a set of esoteric teachings meant to explain the relationship between the unchanging, eternal God—the mysterious Ein Sof (אֵין סוֹף‎, 'The Infinite')[4][5]—and the mortal, finite universe (God's creation).[2][4] It forms the foundation of mystical religious interpretations within Judaism.


@Elihoenai @Bharat Jhunjhunwala

The Yadavas seed arrived to Isha (Israel) as Brahman light lives in the Yadavas who are spiritually alive.

I allow light unconditional love who lives in me to teach me how to feed from light, in the midst of my thoughts and emotions, in the midst of my situations. And as I drink from light, light feeds me. Light unconditional love is my spiritual home.
 
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River Sea

Well-Known Member
The Talmudic and Kabbalistic teachers you have listed are Not Sages because none of them found out how to Become Sinless. The Only Sage is Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ. Are not the teachers you have listed the Pharisees that Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ Condemns? Do you agree that the Mothers Genes determines whether a person is a Jew regardless of whether they practice the Religion of the Elohim/God of Israel or Not?

The Romans forced the Jews to change their laws so that a person is determined by the female egg rather than the male seed. The Jews had to change their laws and submit to the Romans.
 

River Sea

Well-Known Member
Who Or What Is Israel?

It is a title name given by G-d to persons who courageously bore hardship/tribulations for His cause; like Jacob was titled by G-d Israel and or like Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908/ the Second Coming and Imam Mahdi was given a title name of JARI ULLAH* جَرِیُ اللّٰہِ by G-d, right, please?
So, religion and its prophecies are spiritual, neither racial nor worldly, right?
Regards
___________________
*"جری اللہ فی حلل الانبیاء"

Searching online:
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was an Indian religious leader and the founder of the Ahmadiyya movement in Islam

JARI definition is: Bold, Courageous, Brave
ULLAH definition is: Arabic word Ullāh literally means "of God/Allah"

Jari Ullah definition is: Bold, Courage, Brave, God/Allah.

I could write; I allow Jari Ullah to teach me in the midst of my situation how to drink from light Allah, and so using my situations too to teach me how.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
The Romans forced the Jews to change their laws so that a person is determined by the female egg rather than the male seed. The Jews had to change their laws and submit to the Romans.
I seriously question this and need a reference to confirm this.
 

I Am Hugh

Researcher
Israel is a word that means to contend, wrestle, grapple with God and so be preserved. It's sort of what we all do. Thus, Jacob and the nation were called Israel.
 

River Sea

Well-Known Member
I seriously question this and need a reference to confirm this.

@shunyadragon asked me to reference about:
The Romans forced the Jews to change their laws so that a person is determined by the female egg rather than the male seed. The Jews had to change their laws and submit to the Romans.

Referencing


According to traditional Jewish law (halacha), Jewishness is passed down through the mother. So, if your mother was Jewish, you are too. This position is held by most members of the Conservative and Orthodox communities. The Reform movement recognizes the children of one Jewish parent — mother or father — as a Member of the Tribe if the child is raised Jewish.

But why does traditional Jewish law favor matrilineal descent?

Some people say that Judaism goes by matrilineal descent because we always know who a person’s mother is, and we don’t always know who a person’s father is. However, a person’s status as a priest, Levite, or Israelite is passed down from the father, and such distinctions were of utmost importance in biblical and Rabbinic times (and still, to a certain degree, today). If priesthood can be passed down via one’s father, why not Jewish identity?

Shaye D. Cohen, the Littauer Professor of Hebrew Literature and Philosophy at Harvard University, has written a book and several articles on this issue specifically. Cohen found that matrilineal descent evolved from an original policy of patrilineal descent. In the Torah , a person’s status as a Jew seems to come from his father. Joseph was married to a non-Jewish woman, and his children were considered Jewish. The same was the case for Moses and King Solomon. The change to a policy of matrilineal descent came in late antiquity.


Cohen has two theories about how this came to be. One is that the Tannaim, the rabbis who codified the concept of matrilineal descent, were influenced by the Roman legal system of the time. According to two sources from the end of the second century CE and the beginning of the third century CE, in a marriage between two Romans, a child would receive the status of his father. In an intermarriage between a Roman and a non-Roman, a child received the citizenship status of its mother.

Cohen’s other theory is that the Tannaim developed matrilineal descent from an already existing conclusion about mixed breeding in the animal kingdom. The Torah prohibits the breeding of animals of different species, but there is an opinion in the Mishnah (Kilayim 8:4) that suggests that a mule whose mother was a horse and whose father was a donkey should be allowed to mate with other horses. This implies that “horse-hood” is passed down through the mother, regardless of the father’s species. This concept may have been extrapolated by the rabbis to operate beyond the animal kingdom. Cohen presents both theories, but admits that neither have been conclusively proven.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
@shunyadragon asked me to reference about:


Referencing


According to traditional Jewish law (halacha), Jewishness is passed down through the mother. So, if your mother was Jewish, you are too. This position is held by most members of the Conservative and Orthodox communities. The Reform movement recognizes the children of one Jewish parent — mother or father — as a Member of the Tribe if the child is raised Jewish.

But why does traditional Jewish law favor matrilineal descent?

Some people say that Judaism goes by matrilineal descent because we always know who a person’s mother is, and we don’t always know who a person’s father is. However, a person’s status as a priest, Levite, or Israelite is passed down from the father, and such distinctions were of utmost importance in biblical and Rabbinic times (and still, to a certain degree, today). If priesthood can be passed down via one’s father, why not Jewish identity?

Shaye D. Cohen, the Littauer Professor of Hebrew Literature and Philosophy at Harvard University, has written a book and several articles on this issue specifically. Cohen found that matrilineal descent evolved from an original policy of patrilineal descent. In the Torah , a person’s status as a Jew seems to come from his father. Joseph was married to a non-Jewish woman, and his children were considered Jewish. The same was the case for Moses and King Solomon. The change to a policy of matrilineal descent came in late antiquity.


Cohen has two theories about how this came to be. One is that the Tannaim, the rabbis who codified the concept of matrilineal descent, were influenced by the Roman legal system of the time. According to two sources from the end of the second century CE and the beginning of the third century CE, in a marriage between two Romans, a child would receive the status of his father. In an intermarriage between a Roman and a non-Roman, a child received the citizenship status of its mother.

Cohen’s other theory is that the Tannaim developed matrilineal descent from an already existing conclusion about mixed breeding in the animal kingdom. The Torah prohibits the breeding of animals of different species, but there is an opinion in the Mishnah (Kilayim 8:4) that suggests that a mule whose mother was a horse and whose father was a donkey should be allowed to mate with other horses. This implies that “horse-hood” is passed down through the mother, regardless of the father’s species. This concept may have been extrapolated by the rabbis to operate beyond the animal kingdom. Cohen presents both theories, but admits that neither have been conclusively proven.
This reference is OK and I respect Cohen's conclusions, but this most definitely does not the conclusion you stated which is basically false.

River Sea said:
The Romans forced the Jews to change their laws so that a person is determined by the female egg rather than the male seed. The Jews had to change their laws and submit to the Romans.
 

River Sea

Well-Known Member
This reference is OK and I respect Cohen's conclusions, but this most definitely does not the conclusion you stated which is basically false.

River Sea said:
The Romans forced the Jews to change their laws so that a person is determined by the female egg rather than the male seed. The Jews had to change their laws and submit to the Romans.

@shunyadragon Do you think I misunderstood the article, or is it that the article didn't show through father?

@shunyadragon From that article, here's where I notice this claim: they were influenced by the Roman legal system. See in blue

Cohen has two theories about how this came to be. One is that the Tannaim, the rabbis who codified the concept of matrilineal descent, were influenced by the Roman legal system of the time. According to two sources from the end of the second century CE and the beginning of the third century CE, in a marriage between two Romans, a child would receive the status of his father. In an intermarriage between a Roman and a non-Roman, a child received the citizenship status of its mother.

 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
@shunyadragon Do you think I misunderstood the article, or is it that the article didn't show through father?

@shunyadragon From that article, here's where I notice this claim: they were influenced by the Roman legal system. See in blue

Cohen has two theories about how this came to be. One is that the Tannaim, the rabbis who codified the concept of matrilineal descent, were influenced by the Roman legal system of the time. According to two sources from the end of the second century CE and the beginning of the third century CE, in a marriage between two Romans, a child would receive the status of his father. In an intermarriage between a Roman and a non-Roman, a child received the citizenship status of its mother.

You stated it was "forced" which is false.
 

River Sea

Well-Known Member
You stated it was "forced" which is false.

When influences cause all. What other words can be used besides influence when it's causing all?

@shunyadragon
Will you please explain how the Romans influenced everyone, not just a few, to change their laws? Why can't Jews choose whether or not their male children are born Jewish? Also, how did this effect AD but not BC? Was this because there were no influences in BC? How do influences cause everyone and not just some? Where is the freedom for Jews to decide whether or not to change the law? My question is how much authority the Romans had over the Jews and what exactly does influence mean.

Cohen has two theories about how this came to be. One is that the Tannaim, the rabbis who codified the concept of matrilineal descent, were influenced by the Roman legal system of the time. According to two sources from the end of the second century CE and the beginning of the third century CE, in a marriage between two Romans, a child would receive the status of his father. In an intermarriage between a Roman and a non-Roman, a child received the citizenship status of its mother.

 

Elihoenai

Well-Known Member
@Elihoenai @Bharat Jhunjhunwala

The Yadavas seed arrived to Isha (Israel) as Brahman light lives in the Yadavas who are spiritually alive.

I allow light unconditional love who lives in me to teach me how to feed from light, in the midst of my thoughts and emotions, in the midst of my situations. And as I drink from light, light feeds me. Light unconditional love is my spiritual home.
What does Spiritual mean to you? Is Spiritual the Absence of Flesh? Is Fasting part of your Spirituality?
 

Elihoenai

Well-Known Member
The Romans forced the Jews to change their laws so that a person is determined by the female egg rather than the male seed. The Jews had to change their laws and submit to the Romans.
Deuteronomy 28:25

25 The Lord shall cause thee to be smitten before thine enemies: thou shalt go out one way against them, and flee seven ways before them: and shalt be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth.



Do yo have any proof of this Roman Jewish/Israel submission? The Only way that the Romans can get Dominion over Jews/Israel is when Jews/Israel are Rebellious Against the Elohim/God Of Israel? Roman Dominion over Jew/Israel is Curse for Disobedience.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Who Or What Is Israel?

It is a title name given by G-d to persons who courageously bore hardship/tribulations for His cause; like Jacob was titled by G-d Israel and or like Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908/ the Second Coming and Imam Mahdi was given a title name of JARI ULLAH* جَرِیُ اللّٰہِ by G-d, right, please?
So, religion and its prophecies are spiritual, neither racial nor worldly, right?
Regards
___________________
*"جری اللہ فی حلل الانبیاء"
Searching online:
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was an Indian religious leader and the founder of the Ahmadiyya movement in Islam

JARI definition is: Bold, Courageous, Brave
ULLAH definition is: Arabic word Ullāh literally means "of God/Allah"

Jari Ullah definition is: Bold, Courage, Brave, God/Allah.

I could write; I allow Jari Ullah to teach me in the midst of my situation how to drink from light Allah, and so using my situations too to teach me how.
Friend @River Sea
As I mentioned Mirza Ghulam Ahmad died in 1908, so personally he cannot teach anyone directly but he did write 80+ books and since he followed Quran, and Quran is there to have answer to all reasonable question. Then he prophesied that he will have successors so now we have a Khalifa-the fifth one, named Masroor Ahmad and under his directions we have an official online website :

From all the above sources I will try/help to answer one's queries/question, right, please?
Thanks for your interest.

Regards
 
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